Antares is discontinuing all Auto-Tune for Guitar products.

Started by cags12, August 01, 2017, 05:03:32 AM

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whippinpost91850

I got the email and was really disappointed.  I was just about to finally make the time to install my kit. Now I'm not sure.  I also have an ATG-1. I've only used a little.......WHAT TO DO.  WHAT TO DO

Rhcole

Sure, Line 6 is soldiering on. It's got its audience.
The Strandberg guitar was announced in January. I have yet to see one for sale anywhere.

Look, seriously, eventually DSP technology will be so capable that guitar players will forget hex ever existed. I don't mean to piss my online friends off here, but it is going to happen. Five years, ten years from now, who knows? The holy grail of alt-tunings will get solved, I worked on a secret project last year that could have done it. Company didn't get funded but I had a chance to talk off-the-record with many of your favorite guitar tech companies. If there was higher demand from guitar players I think it might have already happened.

The things we complain about- bad pitch shifts, dirty and low-fi quality audio, these can all get handled. Now, I'm gitten' old, so I accept some of this may happen outside of my time. Thing is, when I get too fussy about all of this, I play my Telecaster through a decent amp and enjoy 1950's quality sounds.

Good is good no matter when it's good. I LIKE how the SY-300 and Mel9 sound together. The GP-10 is also great.
I want more but I love what I have.

Majiken

Quote from: Rhcole on August 01, 2017, 08:51:04 PM
Sure, Line 6 is soldiering on. It's got its audience.
The Strandberg guitar was announced in January. I have yet to see one for sale anywhere.

Look, seriously, eventually DSP technology will be so capable that guitar players will forget hex ever existed. I don't mean to piss my online friends off here, but it is going to happen. Five years, ten years from now, who knows? The holy grail of alt-tunings will get solved, I worked on a secret project last year that could have done it. Company didn't get funded but I had a chance to talk off-the-record with many of your favorite guitar tech companies. If there was higher demand from guitar players I think it might have already happened.

The things we complain about- bad pitch shifts, dirty and low-fi quality audio, these can all get handled. Now, I'm gitten' old, so I accept some of this may happen outside of my time. Thing is, when I get too fussy about all of this, I play my Telecaster through a decent amp and enjoy 1950's quality sounds.

Good is good no matter when it's good. I LIKE how the SY-300 and Mel9 sound together. The GP-10 is also great.
I want more but I love what I have.

Right attitude, right on!  At the end of the show the audience goes home whistling the song, not the equipment  :)
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

aliensporebomb

DSP has to increase power all out of recognition to get there.  It's still too coarse to process the kinds of chords I sometimes play and sound nice.  Oh well.

In about ten days the local guitar center has Line6 showing up with demo units of their Helix LT and will show what it can do with test units to try out and free shirts and all kinds of things.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

ALOfYRSnfWhres

#29
Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 02, 2017, 05:50:44 AM
DSP has to increase power all out of recognition to get there.  It's still too coarse to process the kinds of chords I sometimes play and sound nice.  Oh well.

In about ten days the local guitar center has Line6 showing up with demo units of their Helix LT and will show what it can do with test units to try out and free shirts and all kinds of things.










chrish

Quote
"Look, seriously, eventually DSP technology will be so capable that guitar players will forget hex ever existed  "

How is DSP going to accomplish single string processing without hex ?

For example what if I only want a certain sound to play on the B string? Assuming I'm just using a standard normal guitar without any fret switching or laser beams.


admin

#31
QuoteQuote
"Look, seriously, eventually DSP technology will be so capable that guitar players will forget hex ever existed  "


Quote from: chrish on August 02, 2017, 09:03:30 AM
How is DSP going to accomplish single string processing without hex ?

For example what if I only want a certain sound to play on the B string? Assuming I'm just using a standard normal guitar without any fret switching or laser beams.

exactly my thoughts too

If I want to press a foot switch and get DADGAD tuning   - thats not going to happen without a divided hex pickup -regardless of DSP speed in 2025

Or if I want a "B Bender" Telecaster effect in a pedal  - not possible without a divided pickup

there a dozens of other examples that are impossible to work reliably for any speed  DSP processing using only a 1/4"  mono signal as input.


Majiken

Quote from: admsustainiac on August 02, 2017, 09:43:42 AM

exactly my thoughts too

If I want to press a foot switch and get DADGAD tuning   - thats not going to happen without a divided hex pickup -regardless of DSP speed in 2025

Or if I want a "B Bender" Telecaster effect in a pedal  - not possible without a divided pickup

there a dozens of other examples that are impossible to work reliably for any speed  DSP processing using only a 1/4"  mono signal as input.

For me the hex pickup is not the problem, it's the 13-pin cable (please note that what I do is meat and potatoes, nothing exotic).  If the output is good, I'll rout the hell out of my guitar body to put the electronics in. I can use my Electra with the ATG and a wireless for about 90% of what I do.

... of course, it doesn't work for mixing regular PUs and models, nor does it contain some of the GP10 models I have come to love like the great nylons, sitar etc. so for the time being 13 pin is staying on my board.  Glad I had it installed in parallel in the Electra! Life is good.....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

sixeight

QuoteIf I want to press a foot switch and get DADGAD tuning   - thats not going to happen without a divided hex pickup -regardless of DSP speed in 2025

Melodyne has been able to do this since 2008, though it is not real time. But with increased processing speed it might be possible...



Check the demo from 4:20 onwards. It is just scary. Now if someone can build this into a hardware pedal, so we can do it real-time, that would be mind blowing and then hex processing can pass away...

chrish

Quote
"that would be mind blowing and then hex processing can pass away..."

Unless you want to stay in the analogue domain for Superior sound quality and playing feel. :)

Hex works now both in the analogue and digital domain. Why reinvent the wheel?

And if you really want to reinvent the wheel with computers, well then computers don't really need humans playing real instruments to make music.

admin

#35
Quote from: sixeight on August 02, 2017, 11:06:33 AM
Melodyne has been able to do this since 2008, though it is not real time. But with increased processing speed it might be possible...


Changing the pitch of a trumpet in a stereo mix is VERY different than altering the open tuning of a recorded or live real time played  guitar.
Real Time operation is crucial for live performance - and why melodyne is NOT a tool for live use.

Refer to fretboard pic below: All yellow dots (F) are the same pitch and same frequency ((1.39691 kHz ))
http://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Guitar/Print_Version




Explain how any DSP pedal with only  a mono analog input can determine which "F"  note is currently being played - since all "F" notes played are the same pitch and same frequency ((1.39691 kHz ))?

cags12

With the aim of attracting more "conventional" users I believe the way to go is below:

If hex is the only way to go then what I believe would change everything (for more guitarist to be more open to this tech) is a simpler way of installing Hex pickups and kits with minimal modification to the instrument and small foot print. Make it an easy upgrade like changing pickups.

For example embedding the hex pickup to a pickup ring or pick guard. Something that the average guitarist would dare to do as opposed to route wood and drill holes.

The other part is the connector. It is upmost important to offer a 1/4 Jack output (Not 13 pin exclusive). The approach here would be with an digital multiplexed channel over 1/4 inch and a breakout box for GK connector and other likes. The system must have the ability of sensing whether the guitar is connecting to a regular amp so normal analog signal would be used instead for a classic non hi tech playing experience. The Gibson dusk Tiger and old Shadow system employed this approach in the analog domain which is reportedly more noisy.

Obviously the tech has to advance to make it fit on an average electronic cavity. Something of the size of say the graphtech system.

It is up to a company willing to invest to cleverly implement this solution while listening to potential users.

Rhcole

The project I worked on last year was an AI project, not DSP. We were evaluating the potential for next-generation guitar processors to incorporate AI to "know" what the player was doing. The entrepreneur had access to scary talented AI programmers.

Alt-tunings will be solved by advanced AI and then played by much cleaner DSPs. We backwards estimated budgets to create those kinds of products, and it was pretty expensive and would take quite a bit of time. We looked for partners and talked to some big names. We had technology in the bag already but found that the big guys had different (much more conservative) visions of the future for guitar players than what we were suggesting.

No dice for that project, but I learned enough about music AI to be able to see the future: someday, some way, the pitch and tuning issues WILL get resolved if anybody is willing to pay for them.

As of today, music companies think that not enough guitar players are willing to do that.

carlb

A Gibson Fuzz Paul. Why? Think they can compete on dirt with the likes of Boutique Fuzz Box Alley?

Thing better sound incredible, because if you mod it will lose value.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Rhcole

For anybody intrigued or interested in what I commented about the AI aspects of guitar processing, although I am still bound by project confidentiality (the entrepreneur may pick it back up) it was AMAZING to me to have a brilliant AI mind explain to me how to solve the tuning and other issues we thrash about with on this board. He explained the process by which it could be solved, explained the resources necessary, and it was a moment for me- I could view the problem as seen through his eyes. I could totally understand how you'd need to do it.

It can be done. It will be done, although perhaps crushingly slowly over years due to the fact that the market isn't driving the need. Interestingly, if the ATG-1 was roaringly successful, perhaps a non-hex solution might be really easy to fund. You'd say "This product is selling like crazy, and we can do it without the need for a special pickup! We'll sell 30X as many as them!"

In XX years, these issues we contend with will be fixed and included in children's toys. I remember the first time I heard a $79 kid's keyboard play a Moog voice that Keith Emerson had paid thousands of dollars to create decades earlier. And here it was being stabbed at on a toy by a five year old with sticky fingers...


chrish

I still don't get the point of all the tech, AI, xcetera just to do something, with 1/4" guitar plugs, that hexaphonic pickups already do so well along with DSP processing.

Hex processing is proven technology and it works. And it works rather simply with analogue gear like the spicetone pedal and it sounds great.

So is AI going to learn all the moves that a particular guitarist makes and through prediction  models figure out which string the guitarist is playing? Or is about to play?

Again what's the point?

Already it's hard to sell most guitarists on 13 pin so how are you going to sell them on AI?





mooncaine

Quote from: Rhcole on August 01, 2017, 08:51:04 PM
Now, I'm gitten' old, so I accept some of this may happen outside of my time.
I want it now. It's no comfort to me at all to believe that your kids might be able to play an Ebdim7#9 on some groovy guitar gear... after I'm dead.

Rhcole

Chrish,

An advanced enough technology would be simple for the user. You wouldn't sell AI to the user, you simply sell alt-tunings, or cleaner modeled sounds or whatever. Think the EHX___9 series, which promises, for example, Mellotron sounds using just the guitar you own. There is some serious innovation by EHX underneath the hood to pull that off, especially for $225.

Last year I had the opportunity to look at the hex market from a business model standpoint. I spoke with several companies you know very well and met some great people.
We all know the products that are a success, such as the FTP and the Variax. But outside of those the hex market is presently just TOO SMALL.

I didn't create any of this, don't blame me. Heck, I have bought my fair share of hex products.

If Roland revitalizes 13 pin by releasing a VG-101, then let's all run out and buy it. But barring that, or somebody else stepping up and PUTTING HEX BACK ON THE MAP, the tech is going to continue developing in the other ways I have been describing. Investment dollars tend to follow paths of least resistance, and AI is a magnetic pull drawing enormous resources towards it. Eventually there will be a crossover point where the non-hex tech has finally caught up, fueled by advanced AI and DSP. As most music companies have other interests, though, it may be quite a few years away. In fact, I could in some ways see an Apple, Google, or Amazon product that catches everybody off guard in the music industry.

Now being on the wrong side of the curve age-wise, I personally will certainly enjoy the best of the products we have today and not hold my breath.

But it WILL happen.




cags12

Quote from: Rhcole on August 02, 2017, 11:07:17 PM
It can be done. It will be done, although perhaps crushingly slowly over years due to the fact that the market isn't driving the need. Interestingly, if the ATG-1 was roaringly successful, perhaps a non-hex solution might be really easy to fund. You'd say "This product is selling like crazy, and we can do it without the need for a special pickup! We'll sell 30X as many as them!"

Me, I consider myself a conventional "average" guitarist more than a big enthusiast of GK products (not like other member of this forum), the main issue I found with all of this technology is what has to be done to the guitar and the incorporation of a 13 pin connector and Hex pickup. Although I am willing to do it, I would only do it to my 3rd guitar, not my number one.

Believe me, I do not believe any guitarist would not want to have access to multiple tunings, modeled guitars, synth access, etc; as long as they do not make a compromise to their current instrument and playing culture. Access  to this tech from any regular guitar or with minimal modifications is crucial.

If there is a possible solution with AI to that problem then I believe it is worth pursuing and perhaps a Kickstarter campaing would show huge interest. As a matter of fact I believe it would be the best approach as you would be assessing interest of the general public way before the money is actually invested. Not forgetting the plus of being fund by external people.
Of course, it will have to be marketed correctly not to make the same mistakes as other companies did.

sixeight

Quotethe main issue I found with all of this technology is what has to be done to the guitar and the incorporation of a 13 pin connector and Hex pickup.

I fully agree with you on that one. With the current progress of Jam Origin's midi guitar software, I am surprised nobody built a hardware version of that yet. I still expect the next Roland GR to be be without a hex pickup...

Smash

Can't say the ATG being discontinued either surprises or bothers me that much.

All the demos I heard the models were uninspiring - yes the pitch shifting was way ahead of everything but that doesn't do you much good with 'meh' sounding models.

And that floor box. Something the size of a SY300 to simply to control which model and tuning?! When I first saw I was convinced it was a new multi FX and then got a shock when it wasn't.

The whole thing just seem half finished - no complete bundle with pups, no decent software. And with the GP10 already out there (warbles aside) it just seemed doomed to me anyways.

I think Variax survives because it's well integrated in a decent guitar that a non tech doesn't need to adapt to - the user controls are well thought out, clear and intuitive. I've said it a million times - do NOT let the techs come up with the user interfaces -  it's fatal!! Any guitar player could pick up a JTV and use it without any tuition - add to that Line 6 FX box program change integration and it's a very exciting prospect for every type of guitarist.

I'm imagining the sales person chat to customer with the ATG as something like...

"Is it a multi FX?"

"No"

"What does it do?"

"It models different guitars and allows instant alternate tunings"

"Wow - so I plug my gui..."

"No, no! You have to use a special pickup fitted to your guitar"

"Oh OK - is that easy to mount?"

"Depends what pickup you chose.."

"Well which one comes with it?"

"It doesn't come with one - you have to buy one separately..."

"Oh OK ....well how much is it?"

"£750"

"Pick up on top?"

"Pick up on top."

"Hmmm...erm.....well, what's that yellow box next to it? Is that a multi FX?"

"Yes it is"

"Does it have amps?"

"Yes it does. and it has guitar modelling"

"Like the big box?"

"Yes but far more models"

"But it doesn't do the tuning thing then right?"

"Actually yes it does...and it does guitar to midi"

"But I guess i have to buy a pickup for that one as well then right?"

"Actually no - it comes with it - but you can use a stock 1/4" guitar out for the FX and amp stuff"

"how much?"

"£419"

"With pick up?"

"With pick up. Wanna try it?"

Pete1959

If only Roland could outdo Variax by going back to the VG-Strat idea. I had one before my GR-55 and GP-10 and liked the idea of hex processing at the guitar level with quarter inch output. My singer bought it off me and still uses it to this day instead of switching guitars on stage.

It seems that they could easily pack the power of a VG-99, toss in Bluetooth / MIDI for control and put it in a package that could be made available factory installed on a guitar or as an aftermarket kit.

Seems to me that the typical 4-8 core cell phone CPU and support hardware can be mounted inside most guitars and with a good rechargable battery pack, it could break the life line to an external processing box and only rely on someone's favorite amp for final sound output.



Elantric

Quote from: Pete1959 on August 03, 2017, 07:05:07 AM
If only Roland could outdo Variax by going back to the VG-Strat idea.

You know the 2012-2015 Fender  / Roland G5 was essentially an updated VG-Strat
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Roland/G-5-Stratocaster-Electric-Guitar.gc
QuoteI had one before my GR-55 and GP-10 and liked the idea of hex processing at the guitar level with quarter inch output. My singer bought it off me and still uses it to this day instead of switching guitars on stage.

It seems that they could easily pack the power of a VG-99, toss in Bluetooth / MIDI for control and put it in a package that could be made available factory installed on a guitar or as an aftermarket kit.

Seems to me that the typical 4-8 core cell phone CPU and support hardware can be mounted inside most guitars and with a good rechargable battery pack, it could break the life line to an external processing box and only rely on someone's favorite amp for final sound output.

omitting the VG-99 amp modeling and just focus on Guitar modeling  - You just described the Antares ATG Internal kit with Quiccosound m.1 BLE MIDI and ipad control  - exists since 2014







Observe the typical reaction from the masses regarding Antares ceasing the ATG 
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/a-sad-day-for-guitar-technology-antares-will-be-discontinuing-all-auto-tune-for-guitar-products.1852499/
http://www.autotuneforguitar.com/media/artists.php

ALOfYRSnfWhres

#48
Quote from: Elantric on August 03, 2017, 07:34:56 AM

Observe the typical reaction from the masses regarding Antares ceasing the ATG 
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/a-sad-day-for-guitar-technology-antares-will-be-discontinuing-all-auto-tune-for-guitar-products.1852499/


there are pros and cons but im amazed that there are less talking about becoming a "tool" from that forum, if the topic flared up and make bad argument leading in a Out of Topic disccussion maybe ill request for the admin the thread to locked or deleted. Almost all prejudged this technology there that adds to the injury

chrish

Quote from: Rhcole on August 03, 2017, 12:53:28 AM
Chrish,

An advanced enough technology would be simple for the user. You wouldn't sell AI to the user, you simply sell alt-tunings, or cleaner modeled sounds or whatever. Think the EHX___9 series, which promises, for example, Mellotron sounds using just the guitar you own. There is some serious innovation by EHX underneath the hood to pull that off, especially for $225.

Last year I had the opportunity to look at the hex market from a business model standpoint. I spoke with several companies you know very well and met some great people.
We all know the products that are a success, such as the FTP and the Variax. But outside of those the hex market is presently just TOO SMALL.

I didn't create any of this, don't blame me. Heck, I have bought my fair share of hex products.

If Roland revitalizes 13 pin by releasing a VG-101, then let's all run out and buy it. But barring that, or somebody else stepping up and PUTTING HEX BACK ON THE MAP, the tech is going to continue developing in the other ways I have been describing. Investment dollars tend to follow paths of least resistance, and AI is a magnetic pull drawing enormous resources towards it. Eventually there will be a crossover point where the non-hex tech has finally caught up, fueled by advanced AI and DSP. As most music companies have other interests, though, it may be quite a few years away. In fact, I could in some ways see an Apple, Google, or Amazon product that catches everybody off guard in the music industry.

Now being on the wrong side of the curve age-wise, I personally will certainly enjoy the best of the products we have today and not hold my breath.

But it WILL happen.

Yeah but will guitarists, and musicians in general, embrace AI in their devices or will there be a line that musicians will recognize as a destruction of the soul of music?

Because AI won't just stop with simple intelligent pedals and could go as far as an injectable brain neuronet that will tie the brain directly into the AI technology.

Will the musician be creating the music or will AI be creating the music?

"It probably hadn't eased his mind when one of Hassabis's partners in DeepMind, Shane Legg, stated flatly, "I think human extinction will probably occur, and technology will likely play a part in this.""

"Musk's alarming views on the dangers of A.I. first went viral after he spoke at M.I.T. in 2014—speculating (pre-Trump) that A.I. was probably humanity's "biggest existential threat." "




https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/elon-musk-billion-dollar-crusade-to-stop-ai-space-x/amp