SY-300 - How does the SY stack up and for whom?

Started by Rhcole, February 27, 2017, 10:26:17 AM

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Rhcole

I'm going on two years of living with the SY-300. I've put it away a few times but keep coming back to it because it is so different than anything else I own. To me, when you think of the SY you have to compare it to several kinds of boxes:
Strymon Timeline and BigSky
Eventide Space and PitchFactor
EHX HOG2
Pigtronix Mothership synthesizer
Red Witch Synthotron

The SY combines features from all of these boxes without directly copying any of them. You CAN'T compare it with the VG-99, GP-10, or Fishman Triple Play. To me, they aren't even related due to the 1/4" design constraints of the SY.

So, how do I think it stands up? Well ALL of the boxes listed above have ghastly polyphonic pitch shifts. I have owned all of them except the Pigtronix and Red Witch, which clearly are intended as mono products. I sold the PitchFactor because chords made me grit my teeth when played through it, same with the EHX HOG2. So none of the 1/4" boxes do pitch shifts well.

The SY is the most expensive of the lot, at least until you get our generous group buy discount.  8)
But to me, I think the SY has 3 sweet spots:
1. Blazing wailing solo synths
2. Ambient, textural, pastel tone colors
3. As a versatile multi-FX box with the Oscs adding dimensions and spice but not the main course. You even have synth filters for the regular guitar, not common in most FX

The SY is poor to awful at the following:
1. Emulating other instruments or even most other synths
2. As a general poly synth box

Boss marketed it only as a solo synth box if you look at their videos.
I wonder how it might have gone for them if they broadened their outreach and targeted other markets, like the upcoming Mooer Ocean Machine. For me, the ambient/textural side is its strongest feature set with the general multi-fx and editing capabilities coming in second place.



admin

#1
QuoteWell ALL of the boxes listed above have ghastly polyphonic pitch shifts.

Try the Digitech Whammy DT (Drop Tune)
http://digitech.com/en-US/products/whammy-dt


or EHX PitchFork
http://www.ehx.com/products/pitch-fork


QuoteI wonder how it might have gone for them if they broadened their outreach and targeted other markets, like the upcoming Mooer Ocean Machine. For me, the ambient/textural side is its strongest feature set with the general multi-fx and editing capabilities coming in second place.

IMHO it competes very well against the  Mooer Ocean Machine  - but alas the  Mooer Ocean Machine is roughly 1/2 the cost, and has more real time control knobs

https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/MOCEAN/reverb-pedals/mooer-ocean-machine-devin-townsend-guitar-pedal

Rhcole

#2
I haven't had the Whammy but the Pitch Fork is gone from my setup because of its glitching. It does low octaves OK but high Octaves and intervals couldn't hack a M 7th chord any better than anybody else.

admin

#3
QuoteI haven't had the Whammy but the Pitch Fork is gone from my setup because of its' glitching. It does low octaves OK but high Octaves and intervals couldn't hack a M 7th chord any better than anybody else.


Explains why i prefer a hex PU based unit  - and dont see a day in my lifetime that a 1/4" normal pickup system pedals (like the SY-300, or EXH ***9) pedal will deliver "D-A-D-G-A-D" from a normal "E-A-D-G-B-E"  tuned guitar, or   replace a VG-99, or a 1995 VG-8 )


Rhcole

#4
The best 1/4" product for pitch shifts so far is the Mel9. It is noticeably better than earlier EHX products, and runs circles around Boss SY-300. EHX will get it dialed in first, but it will take them a few more years.

Brak(E)man

I hate and love the blue box.
I don't seem to be able to get along with it for two reasons.
The non polyphony and the fact that the input changes the sound completely.
The latter I do love as well.

I'm sure I will keep it and bring it into my live arsenal eventually.
And I'm certain it'll be a classic.
As a semi mono synth it's the best so far, maybe with some competition from
GR300 and VG8 although they are polyphonic
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

lumena

Love it and hate it. Won't be selling.
I actually am glad to be free of hex as I am leaning toward a new seven string strandberg. In a lot of ways the sy300 was the gateway out.

I think most of the effects are a bit below par when comparing to Strymon -  the Reverb never really sounds clear and things like smear/filter in the Delay are more or else absent. My guess is it's all 16bit or less processing so it's hard to compete when the density is set high.
There is no provision to put an fx in the loop of a delay and something like an 8 second delay or a 30 sec. looper block would have really made this a much better ambient in a box. The sequencer is fairly useless as it cannot control any of the fx and lacks direct control of the filter. I really wish the fx blocks could be placed before the synth blocks so that I could use the eq and od in a better location pre oscillators, yes I know there is a more or less workaround overdriving the input on a per patch basis but it really doesn't sound as good as the fx blocks. Speaking of loops a couple of places to break the signal and go external would also make it much better.

I like how the Sy300 tracking really works even with things like tapping. Monophonic is just fine and if I wanted to trigger a synth and pretend I wasn't playing a guitar I would use the fishman - wireless and no fuss.

Funny thing is I spend an hour or 2 everyday working with it and there are a lot of very different types of sounds that come out. I think it also can compare very well to something like a PLL or a Industrialectric 4048. I have high hopes for it becoming more useful as I ferret out the truly unique tones. A better editor that shows connections between osc and effects with cntrl would really improve things, frankly I think that is probably the cheapest fix roland could make... just make the editor a little more graphic by including the control paths in the flowchart it would make all the control sources LF0, switches etc much more intuitive to work with. Not everyone want to toil away looking for exactly which switch controls which function over 2 or sometimes 3 pages of screens. That tends to make less committed users decide to just drop it for something a little easier to figure out.

Don't think I will ever sell it as sometimes it seems to really surprise me, somedays that is really the best part of it.
I will know for sure if it's going to leave the house when my kemper arrives from Thomann. I have hope for combining the Kemper GR300 tones and amps/delays in the Kemper with the sy300 in a pre/post fx loop. Till then it's living in the studio.


funkyguitar

I like to have it set up as often as I can.  I use it less than half the time, but it's good to have it when I want it.  I agree that it doesn't do a good job of simulating other instruments or synths for that matter (aside from a decent organ sound).  Still, the 1/4 inch input without needing a special pickup is a game changer for me, to at least approximate familiar synth sounds.

chrish

I use two of the sy's mostly as a synth processer for other synths, such feeding one of each of the dual channels of the vg99 into each sy.

For example, I've been using smash's vg99  blade runner patch with different tunings. Use the exp pedal to morph between the 2  vg99 synth channels.

And or add another synth or a noise wave from the moog.

the sound creation possibilities are infinite when the sy's virtual oscs process a more complex waveform than just a guitar string.

i rarely just use a straight guitar  signal into the sy except when using my 8 string ibanez guitar. Then i let the sy process the additional 2 bass strings along with other synths triggered by the other 6 strings via the gk3.

lumena

Hey Chrish
I wound love to hear that  8 string into the sy300 if you feel like posting something it sounds very interesting.
:D

chrish

Quote from: lumena on February 27, 2017, 09:34:36 PM
Hey Chrish
I wound love to hear that  8 string into the sy300 if you feel like posting something it sounds very interesting.
:D
i have been meaning to post a few more patches for awhile now, but with only a flip phone for home internet, i have to go to the public library to post that stuff.

thanks for the motivation. I'll use the 8 string for the patch examples. May take a week or so though.

tbeltrans

Quote from: admsustainiac on February 27, 2017, 10:55:00 AM


IMHO it competes very well against the  Mooer Ocean Machine  - but alas the  Mooer Ocean Machine is roughly 1/2 the cost, and has more real time control knobs

https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/MOCEAN/reverb-pedals/mooer-ocean-machine-devin-townsend-guitar-pedal

Thanks for mentioning this new Mooer pedal.  It really has about the only effects I really need, except maybe occasionally chorus.  It is two delays and one reverb which can be re-ordered any way you want, as well as a 44 second looper (which is enough unless you are doing some form of "guitar karoake".  I have no need whatsoever for distortion, and never really have had the desire to do that to my guitar sound.  If I understand what I have been seeing, hearing, and reading, this pedal really maximizes the sonic landscape that this combination of effects can create.  It seems to be quite unique and something beyond just connecting two delays and a reverb in the way it is structured.

I pre-ordered one of these, but have no idea when it will be ready to ship.  If it is as good as the video demos seem to indicate, I may well be able to really thin my "pedal herd".  This could well be the ultimate in pedal simplicity for an entire pedal rig.  These effects are pretty standard for guitar, so there should be no weird artifacts, polyphony issues, tracking issues, etc.

From what I have read, Mooer does make decent quality pedals at reasonable cost.

Tony

lumena

Quote from: chrish on February 28, 2017, 08:06:28 AM
i have been meaning to post a few more patches for awhile now, but with only a flip phone for home internet, i have to go to the public library to post that stuff.

thanks for the motivation. I'll use the 8 string for the patch examples. May take a week or so though.

Sounds great. I am looking forward to hearing it.

tbeltrans

What will be interesting is seeing how the SY-300 AND the Ocean Machine can work together.  Given a choice, I think I would rather use the SY-300 than an external chorus for an additional effect, especially since I already have the SY-300. :)

In many cases, when somebody posts about ordering a piece of gear, the waiting, as difficult as it may be, is for a known fixed period of time such as a week or whatever it takes to ship the product.  In my case, it is unknown since I have no idea when the Ocean Machine is really supposed to be available.  Oh well.

Tony


JiveTurkey

For me, being someone who is not synth savvy; like, at all; the SY is a great tool. I know the limitations other's point out, but never really encounter them when I use it. There are decent enough approximations of other instruments and synth lead lines are absolutely killer through the SY. There are, admittedly; a lot of things you more discerning synth users want that the box is missing. I don't have that keen of an ear or that deep of a tweaking well. So for me; it's a tool that works as I want it to.

aliensporebomb

I'm just hoping to get an ocean machine - they still are pretty scarce out there.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

tbeltrans

In poking around the internet tonight, I found some posts in other forums that said that availability will probably be somewhere between mid-March and mid-April.  There are apparently delays in manufacturing.  I am not in a big hurry.  since I have my pre-order in, it is just a waiting game now.  It will show up at my door at some point, probably within the next two months.

Tony


Rhcole

The Ocean Machine certainly has a lot of "buzz" in advance of its release. But I watched the demo of the presets and thought it was good, although perhaps not spectacular. What are you expecting it to be or do that makes it exceptional compared to other pedals? I like how small it is, about the size of the Strymon BigSky.

The SY can re-order delays and reverbs like the OM, but it lacks the Shimmers and looper. The SY has the Oscillators, Slow Gear (OM doesn't appear to have an envelope reverb, big omission if so), and other things.

tbeltrans

Overall, the Ocean Machine seems simple (three pedals in one), but the right kinds of pedals and designed/overseen by a guy who really knows what he is doing.  Having been an embedded software engineer for many years, I can definitely say that a product designed largely by engineers will come out quite differently from one designed by a practitioner who will use the device.  I am looking at the usability of the device in real musical situations.  I think it is a matter of what pedals Devon chose and how he intended them to interact.

Since I have only seen videos and heard the guy talk about his intentions for the design, it could well turn out in reality to be nothing like what my expectations are.  On the other hand, it may be everything he says and more.  Until I have it in my hands, I won't really know for sure.  This pedal, in particular intrigues me more than most pedals I have seen and/or own.

Tony

chrish

#19
I think it boils down to different tastes in what artists want to hear from reverbs and delays. Not every one likes the sound of roland reverbs or even stymon pedals or even digital delays.

some folks prefer analog reverbs and delays only.

pesonally, imo, the best reverbs and delays come from big walls and canyons outside.

Not springs and plates or models of springs and plates.


I'm not sure that i have ever heard any reverb that sounds like a good room.



if only that sound of nature's reverbs could be captured in any type of pedal.

btw, to my hears, korg makes some fine digital reverbs and delays.

Also, i like the sy300 because the reverbs of the guitar string, or even an external noise osc, can have a 'tone color' added to the reverb model.

It helps to turn the volume low on the sy relative to a clean guitar sound. (edit- to add a tone color reverb)

tbeltrans

It seems to me that "reverb" can be used for different desired end results.  The most common use of reverb is probably to simulate a "real" natural reverb as the previous poster stated, in which case forget all the typical pedals and go for the real studio quality rack that is priced far above all the things many of us are buying.  In the case of the Ocean Machine, I think (based on the music I have heard from Devon Townsend and how he talks about the pedal) that its purpose is generating soundscapes with big washes and that sort of thing.  In that situation, if all the stuff in the pedal works together well (i.e. easy workflow and sounds that complement each other) and mixes well to create the desired effect, then it will have achieved what Devon talks about over and over in his videos, which is not a high end studio quality reverb (trying to recreate what one would get naturally recording in a tiled bathroom or a large canyon, for example).

In short, it comes down to the right tool for the job.  If a person is looking for the electronic recreation of a natural reverb, then I really doubt the Ocean Machine or even the SY-300 is it.  More likely, a high end studio rack mount TC Electronic or similar device is what is called for, or better yet, on site recording where such reverb naturally occurs.

Tony

JiveTurkey

The ONLY reason I have even looked at the Ocean Machine is the Devin Townsend connection. His sig brings in a lot (if not ALL of) the interest in this pedal, imo.

chrish

#22
I've mentioned this before that when ever i'm visiting puget sound in my home state of washington, i visit one of the old ww2 era artillery forts with my acoustic guitar in hand.

at these forts (which are state parks now) are massive concrete bunkers with many different sized rooms and hallways.

the reverbs and delays in those bunkers are amazing.

Brak(E)man

I'm amazed by the quality of the reverb of both the SY and the GP.
For a multifx, synth, guitar & amp modeler etc it's remarkable.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

tbeltrans

Quote from: JiveTurkey on March 02, 2017, 07:46:14 AM
The ONLY reason I have even looked at the Ocean Machine is the Devin Townsend connection. His sig brings in a lot (if not ALL of) the interest in this pedal, imo.

This is what got my attention too.  Somebody mentioned the Ocean Machine here and I was curious, so I looked it up, found a number of Youtube videos, looked into Devin Townsend, and saw that the guy was really serious about collaborating on getting a decent product.  He seems very involved in this project, much more than what I have usually seen with other musicians lending their name to a product.  He seems very particular about what he wants and why, and what he talks about regarding this product seems to correspond with what I would want.  This level of interest has not happened for me prior to this.  I hope the pedal does not turn out to be a big letdown.

Tony