NGD went sour - Bad RMC saddle on Godin xtSA

Started by lespauled, May 20, 2016, 11:11:30 AM

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lespauled

Yesterday, I picked up a used Godin XTSA off Craigslist.  In my initial checks, the guitar had some scratches, but the neck was straight, and there was nothing that I couldn't fix on the guitar (cosmetically). It was listed as perfect working order, and every single time   The guy seemed cool, just like any other musician I have encountered before.  The guitar was definitely used, but workable.  I picked it up at work, so I didn't have a chance to check out the electronics.

When I have dealt with a musician, every single time, they have been on the up and up.  Not once have I ever had a problem with a musician, in fact, most have been beyond cool.

Unfortunately, I got an education yesterday. 

I cleaned the guitar up, did a full setup (as always with a new acquisition).  Then I plugged it in (magnetic pickups).  It sounded great!!! in fact, it might be one of the first times that I actually liked the setting for the middle and neck pickup combined.  I was playing it for quite a while, then checked out the acoustic setting.  At first, I was fumbling around, because I didn't realize that I have to turn the volume off on the electric pot to get the acoustic only.  But finally, I figured it out.

That's when I realized there was a problem.  The saddle on the Low E (6th) string wasn't playing.  I put on some headphones, and realized that it was indeed playing, but playing much lower than the other strings (almost inaudible).   Even though I already knew the answer, I checked the midi, and (of course) the same result.

I figured that I could get a new saddle, and be good to go.  But after contacting some authorized dealers, I found that it wasn't going to be so easy.  They no longer sell individual saddles, and the seet goes for over $250 (plus installation).

So, even though I knew it was going to be futile, I texted the seller, and told him about the non-working saddle.   I got no response.  Not sure I was really expecting one, but hoped he would be a stand-up guy.   I guess I was wrong.

Now, I'm trying not to let this get to me, and I'm dealing with my options. 

1. Getting it fixed doesn't seem cost effective.  At this point, I'm getting kind of sour on the guitar because of the issue.

2. Do I relist it, stating the problem, and take the hit monetarily? (because I simply wont do to others what was just done to me).

What would be a fair price to ask?  Maybe around $550 ?

bbob

Hi Lespauled,

I recently had to replace the low E saddle on my similar Godin LGX-SA.

How old is your Godin ?   Does it have RMC saddles?

If so, contact Richard McLish at www.rmcpickup.com for a replacement saddle.

I have dealt with Richard several times and he has always provided excellent customer service.

The replacement saddle will have to be soldered to a PC board in the guitar so if you are good at that, great, if not use a luthier with soldering skills.

Bob

Elantric

#2
Common problem - This thread has all the answers - read whole thread

Godin xtSA with broken piezo saddle
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12199.0

Quote1. Getting it fixed doesn't seem cost effective.  At this point, I'm getting kind of sour on the guitar because of the issue.

You have RMC Piezo Saddles - any authorized RMC Piezo pickup installer can repair your Godin xtSA
http://www.rmcpickup.com/authorized_installers.htm

Since you are in New York, here are local RMC pickup installers :
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stringed Instr Repair
Leonia   NJ   
Contact: Allen Watsky   
201-592-1769   
201-461-7046   
awatsky@mindspring.com   

Dio Dino's Hand. Mus. Inst.   
Astoria   NY   
Contact: Dino   
718-777-1373   
718-777-1644   
info@diodinos.com   

Fodera Guitars   
Brooklyn   NY   
Contact: Joe, Vinnie or Mike   
718-832-3455   
718-832-3458   
fodera@interport.net   

Sadowsky Guitars   
Brooklyn   NY   
Contact: Roger   
718-422-1123   
718-422-1120   
www.sadowsky.com   

Rick McCurdy   
New York   NY   
Contact: Rick   
212-274-8352   
212-274-8352   
mccurdygtr@aol.com   

Peekamoose Guitars   
New-York   NY   
Contact: Paul or Hawley   
212-869-2396      
info@peekamoose.com   

Mandolin Brothers   
Staten Island   NY   
Contact: Stan or Leroy   
718-981-8585      
mandolin@mandoweb.com   

HG Thor Guitar Lab   
Vestal   NY
Contact: Harris   
607-786-3749   
607-786-3749   
guitlab@woodwiz   


lespauled

Thanks for the links.  I'll check them out.

As far as the authorized dealers:

Mandolin Bros no longer exist... at least like they used to.  Stan died, and Leroy left. Word is that the kids are running it into the ground.  It's sad, but Stan ran it really well.





Email from Sadowsky:

Sorry about that but we actually only do repair work on Sadowsky instruments.  I'd be more than happy to refer you to some other techs in New York who could help you out!

Best,

Peter Amos




Email from McCurdy:

It's not good.
All piezo transducers have a limited lifespan; usually 7 years or so.
Richard McLish,the owner of RMC, insists on selling complete sets of transducers.
I don't get a break on price.
The good news is any decent guitar repair shop with a soldering iron can replace them
no problem.
My suggestion is to buy a set, have them installed and keep the working ones for when this happens in the future.
Best of luck,
Ric

Ric McCurdy
mccurdyguitars.com
luthiersnotebook.com
Instagram@mccurdygtr




Based on Ric's email, I'm not sure it's worth the money to bring it in.

I have some thinking to do.

Elantric

Contact the source



RMC Pickup Co.
1739 Addison #15
Berkeley CA 94703
info@rmcmusic.com




bbob

FWIW, In the past, on two separate occasions, I was able to purchase single saddles directly from Richard at RMC Pickup.  I sent him close up photos of the color coding on the saddle cable making it easier for Richard to send the correct one.

Bob

kenact

Quote from: Elantric on May 20, 2016, 12:17:51 PM
Common problem - This thread has all the answers - read whole thread

Godin xtSA with broken piezo saddle
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12199.0

You have RMC Piezo Saddles - any authorized RMC Piezo pickup installer can repair your Godin xtSA
http://www.rmcpickup.com/authorized_installers.htm

Since you are in New York, here are local RMC pickup installers :
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stringed Instr Repair
Leonia   NJ   
Contact: Allen Watsky   
201-592-1769   
201-461-7046   
awatsky@mindspring.com   

Dio Dino's Hand. Mus. Inst.   
Astoria   NY   
Contact: Dino   
718-777-1373   
718-777-1644   
info@diodinos.com   

Fodera Guitars   
Brooklyn   NY   
Contact: Joe, Vinnie or Mike   
718-832-3455   
718-832-3458   
fodera@interport.net   

Sadowsky Guitars   
Brooklyn   NY   
Contact: Roger   
718-422-1123   
718-422-1120   
www.sadowsky.com   

Rick McCurdy   
New York   NY   
Contact: Rick   
212-274-8352   
212-274-8352   
mccurdygtr@aol.com   

Peekamoose Guitars   
New-York   NY   
Contact: Paul or Hawley   
212-869-2396      
info@peekamoose.com   

Mandolin Brothers   
Staten Island   NY   
Contact: Stan or Leroy   
718-981-8585      
mandolin@mandoweb.com   

HG Thor Guitar Lab   
Vestal   NY
Contact: Harris   
607-786-3749   
607-786-3749   
guitlab@woodwiz

There is also:
Amp & Guitar Wellness Center
1700 10th Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11215
718-369-7080

They are an authorized Godin service center and have replaced individual saddles just about all of the hex bridge guitars.
Godin Session & Montreal FTP, LGXT, LGX SA, Redline, ACS, A12, A11, A10, A4
Danoblaster Baritone w/GK-3
Gretsch Nashville, Viking
Fender Strats
Fret King Supermatic
Larrivee DV03RE
Parker Midi Fly
Seagull, S&P 12
VOX Phantom XII
GR-55, 33, 30, 20, GI-20, RC-50, US-20, VG-99, VP-7
Sentient 6
Cyr 7

lespauled

Thanks for the info. I sold the guitar a while ago, unlike the person that sold it to me, I gave full disclosure in the post, and reiterated the problem with anyone that had inquiries. I'd rather sleep soundly knowing that I didn't hide anything.


BRETTSEYFORTH

Personally, I think the RMC saddles are great while they are working properly, but the fact that they go dull and lose their sensitivity is unacceptable. I have a Godin LGXT SA which I puchased in 2009. I used it very little to begin with, but when I did start using it I notice that two of the saddles where quite weak. Godin where not interested, to the point where they didn't even respond to my emails. Richard (RMC), suggested that I had mistreated the guitar and possibly over used the trem, both suggestions were complete rubbish. He suggested I order a couple of very expensive replacement saddles for my new guitar, which I did. Whilst the order was in the system, it became apparent that two other saddles had gone dull. Grudgingly, I increased my order to four. Once installed, it was very quite obvious that whilst the original two where still working well, they were a lot quieter than the new ones. I was not happy. Luckily, I found an used set on eBay at a good price. Once installed they have been good for about 6 years (with regular playing). Unfortunately the low E has just dropped right down in volume. In my view they are not fit for purpose, coupled with the fact that they are very expensive to replace. Fortunately, I had the foresight to purchase a couple of new saddles on eBay recently (the same colour code as my original ones), so in theory, I have a complete set of good ones. Short of this, I will certainly consider putting ghost saddles in with the RMC system. I don't use the acoustic ouput (other than to see if the saddles are working), so I'm just using the 13 pin for the Axon. It's worth a go, and if necessary I'll have to either change the electronics to Ghost, or put more self-destructing RMC saddles in. I have a Godin Passion RG2, which has the Ghost system in. It works very well. I also have 2 of the original Roland controllers; G808 & G303 which I modified many years ago, they both have GK2 pickups and the PCBs mounted inside (both work well). I also have an Ibanez RG1520 which has LR Baggs saddles on the Floyd style trem and a Roland Preamp. This is probable the best and most accurate of the controllers. To sum up, I am anything but impressed with the life expectancy of the RMC saddles, and if anyone else has used the Ghost saddles with the RMC electrics (particularly on a Godin LGX), I would be interested in their opinon of performance.

admin

Ghost Piezo saddles suffer higher crosstalk of adjacent string vibrations with resulting poor guitar to MIDI tracking performance

BRETTSEYFORTH

There certainly isn't a crosstalk issue on my Godin Passion RG2.

Clipper24

Had a similar problem with my xtSA in 2015 with my Low E, the supplier replaced the saddle for a reasonable amount. However, last week my High E did the same thing abruptly in mid playing. I wrote to Godin who did reply with advice about how to mitigate the problem. One suggestion was to remove the saddle and gently twist the cable. It was while attempting to remove the saddle from the holder that I inadvertently caused to top of the RMC saddle to separate from the body. Inspection with a magnifying glass showed two retainer flaps that held the top in position, one was bent back (from my exertions).  There appeared to be a springy wire within the main body that would normally be in contact with the hat. I reinserted the top portion (hat) of the saddle and bent the flap downward with a jeweller screwdriver. It now works and may even sound better than before the failure. I wonder if the problems are related to the "Hat" loosing contact with that resonant wire(?) underneath?


lespauled

I sold that XTSA a while back, and stated EXACTLY what was wrong with it in the posting.  Probably not the greatest option for a salesman, but at least I could sleep at night knowing that I didn't hose anyone.

I took the money from that sale, and it helped fund my new LGX-SA. 

Although I absolutely LOVE the Godin LGX-SA, I am growing increasingly concerned that this is a systemic problem with the RMC pickups.  I had some issues with the volume on one string, and this is a new guitar!!!!   I was told that it could be a few things, like humidity, etc.  Since it resides in my house with central heat/air, the humidity is not an issue because it's completely climate controlled.  I almost wish I hadn't sold my Roland Ready Strat, and may consider buying another one down the road.  I'm also considering buying a GK-3 pickup as a backup, in the event this thing goes haywire on me.

It's sad that such a great guitar has parts that are considered to have a life of about 5 or so years.  Sad, just sad.

Clipper24

It does appear the problem is with the RMC pickup design. In my last instance with it that I had, the pickup just stopped working. I damaged the pickup while trying to remove it from the holder, but the repair of the damage by reattaching the top to body fixed the original problem. I did notice there was a very small springy wire attached to the main body but covered by the top. I presume (or not?) this wire should be in contact with the top portion (the hat). The vibration of this wire would resonate against a magnet creating a signal, is that correct?

Elantric

#15
QuoteI did notice there was a very small springy wire attached to the main body but covered by the top. I presume (or not?) this wire should be in contact with the top portion (the hat). The vibration of this wire would resonate against a magnet creating a signal, is that correct?

The Spring is a pressure contact with underside of piezo saddle element to provide a ground return path.

It is the ground electrical path for the piezo  saddle that is connected to the braided shield on the Coax output wire seen here





Hurricane

Personal experience with these little piezos on my LGXSA

From the first few weeks everything was sweet , I could not find a single issue wrong with this , my first new electric guitar .

Then a month into playing it pops a high E string  - It came with 9's I wanted 12's or 13's so no biggy I had already a
few packs of 12's and 13's waiting to be auditioned any way .

About a month later I pop the same high E  - - O.K - on goes a 13 . About the same time of use and pop .

After the fourth 12 popped I took a hard look at the piezo and it looked O.K. so a fifth 12 goes on it ( I love that fat ring of that thicker string  )
and now in five months or less the same string popped before any of the others , or before the string set fatigued on the other 5 strings .

I talked to Godin direct and they promtly sent me a single piezo , cool guys , so - Just before I was going to take it off and replace it myself I looked really
carefully on how it was mounted to try and approximate the same configuration .

The { loop } I was using this time to inspect the piezo saddle was of a higher magnification and as I looked it over ,
something strange appeared on the piezo saddle I had not seen before . I saw that the top electroplating gold area had an anomaly .

The center of the piezo saddle's [ valley ] had a paper thin coating of the gold plating of a few millimeters suspended between the gap . It was like a knife edge and as
I took a close look at the string that had been on that peizo saddle I saw the metal surface that sat on that saddle defaced and worn down like a wire cutter had tried to
cut through .

I gently took a single edge safety razor and worked down that paper thin gold plating to match the configuration of the other piezo saddles .

I still have the spare , this goes back to 2004/5 .

I can't say enough good things about my guitar , it's a beauty , well built , fantastic sounding / playing of an axe .

HR

Clipper24

Would checking the continuity between the piezo and cable be viable?
QuoteThe Spring is a pressure contact with underside of piezo saddle element to provide a ground return path.
It is the ground electrical path for the piezo  saddle that is connected to the braided shield on the Coax output wire seen here

How do these pickups work?

Elantric

Quote
How do these pickups work?
http://www.cigarboxguitar.com/knowledge-base/differences-between-piezos-and-magnetic-pickups/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor

A piezoelectric sensor is a device that uses the piezoelectric effect, to measure changes in pressure, acceleration, temperature, strain, or force by converting them to an electrical charge. The prefix piezo- is Greek for 'press' or 'squeeze'.