FTP - Add a Tripleplay to Fender GC-1 Strat and keep GK 13 output

Started by Vaultnaemsae, April 29, 2016, 10:51:34 PM

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Vaultnaemsae

Hi,

I've read a lot of info on Vguitar forums but I can't quite find an answer regarding this topic.

Three years ago I ordered a custom guitar (it's taking a long time - I know) and requested the luthier to install an internal GK kit as I was a Roland GR-20 user at the time. Due to various circumstances, the build was delayed. During this time I went a bit guitar synth crazy and explored a lot of gear and options. Then earlier this year I finally picked up an FTP system...wow, love it. Contacted my luthier and asked him to cancel the GK install cos it seemed like extra expense and I was hell-bent on moving away from 13pin tech. But after some thought and experimentation, I can see both options having their advantages/disadvantages. Ideally, I'd like to have access to both. I've read many threads and seen many crazy mods etc.

What I'm imagining is that it might be possible to simply share the under-string GK pickup (just the pickup part) and tap off to the FTP also. Basically, keep the GK setup intact and just make some junction where the pickup can feed either (or both?) systems. Hopefully could mount the FTP transmitter on the rear of the guitar for aesthetics...

I need to talk to my luthier about this but he's quite difficult to get a hold of. Any thoughts on whether or not this kind of system could work?

Cheers, Luke
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Vade

Here are a couple of threads that may be of interest for what you have in mind and best of luck to you on your build.

FTP - Fender Fishman Tripleplay Strat - install an internal GK Kit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

FTP - DIY adapter to use GK 13 Pin Guitars with Tripleplay
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

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Vaultnaemsae

Thanks again, Vade. I just got through reading all your suggested material. Seems my search chops weren't too hot so I appreciate your delicate direction :) the idea seems possible but as most references were to jumping a GK off of the FTP (and not the other way around) I'll need to dig deeper. Still excellent food for thought though. I know it's been said before but the collective knowledge of some
Of the folks on this forum is nothing short of extraordinary!
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Vade

I'm glad you found the links helpful! To me, the salient point is that a single hex pick-up can be shared between GK3 and FTP. The 13 pin piezo based system is more difficult to split but it can be done as well. The design flows from there and is based upon where your build is currently at and how much you're willing to do to get to the end result you desire. I'm happy to help if I can and there are many others (who've been on this road a lot longer than I have) who are usually happy to help as well. Enjoy your journey!
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

It's been a long time but I'm coming back to this thread. I attempted a modification on a Roland GC-1  whereby I jumped the FTP receiver off the board of the GK-3 using a special cable manufactured by a board member. It worked. However I was not entirely happy with the lack of flexibility in terms of adjusting string sensitivy in the FTP app post mod. The basic signal became much weaker after the modification.

This was done as proof of concept before applying it to my almost complete custom guitar. This custom guitar was planned to incorporate an internal Roland GK-3 system but I have a new preference for the Fishman system and do not want to abandon 13 pin tech altogether, yet. The problem is I don't really think there's enough space between the TransTrem and the rear edge of the bridge pick up to add a second divided pick up. Not to mention I think it will disturb the aesthetic appeal of the instrument to add a second pickup.

I've been thinking about this on and off for over year now and I'm not coming up with an appropriate solution whereby I can have both 13pin and FTP installed in the same guitar. I might just have to choose one or the other. I had even thought about  ditching the FTP in favor of the MIDI Guitar 2 software but as good as it is MG2 is obviously not at the same level as the FTP in terms of flexibility.

Anybody got any ideas on this? I suppose if it were a simple thing to do we would've already seen a whole lot of it on here.
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GuitarBuilder

Your best bet is to buy a guitar with factory FTP installed (Fender or Godin) and retrofit the Roland GK-KIT-GT using the FTP hex pickup.  Anderton's still carries them for about $106.  It's the cleanest and easiest solution.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Vade

@ "I attempted a modification on a Roland GC-1 whereby I jumped the FTP receiver off the board of the GK-3 using a special cable manufactured by a board member. It worked. However I was not entirely happy with the lack of flexibility in terms of adjusting string sensitivy in the FTP app post mod. The basic signal became much weaker after the modification."


I'd be interested in how you jumpered off the GK-3 into the FTP Vaultnaemsae. Did you account for the differences between the internal FTP and the external FTP as pointed out by Elantric starting at post #57 and going to post #62 of the thread I linked you to?

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.50

Just to hazard a guess... if the wires were mismatched then that might account for the signal appearing to be too weak to work for you.
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on February 15, 2017, 04:26:22 PM
Your best bet is to buy a guitar with factory FTP installed (Fender or Godin) and retrofit the Roland GK-KIT-GT using the FTP hex pickup.  Anderton's still carries them for about $106.  It's the cleanest and easiest solution.

Thanks for your response, GuitarBuilder. The pre-existing guitar is not an internal FTP guitar. It's a Bill DeLap custom build with an internal GK. It's currently mid-build so I've been thinking about how to add the FTP in together with the GK. Even if it were the kind of guitar you mentioned I'm not sure how this solution would work. Could you please clarify for my better understanding? Maybe I didn't frame my problem very clearly. Sorry.
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Vaultnaemsae

Quote from: Vade on February 15, 2017, 06:02:48 PM
@ "I attempted a modification on a Roland GC-1 whereby I jumped the FTP receiver off the board of the GK-3 using a special cable manufactured by a board member. It worked. However I was not entirely happy with the lack of flexibility in terms of adjusting string sensitivy in the FTP app post mod. The basic signal became much weaker after the modification."


I'd be interested in how you jumpered off the GK-3 into the FTP Vaultnaemsae. Did you account for the differences between the internal FTP and the external FTP as pointed out by Elantric starting at post #57 and going to post #62 of the thread I linked you to?

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.50

Just to hazard a guess... if the wires were mismatched then that might account for the signal appearing to be too weak to work for you.

Thanks for your response, Vade. I got a cable (and also a lot of assistance from Gumbo (synthlinx?) which was effectively a splitter. I removed the divided pickup from the Fishman external unit and then re-connected to it with the synthlinx cable  that connected into the board of the internal GK in the back of the GC-1. I have a bunch of pictures somewhere showing the process but as it didn't really work out the way I expected I never bothered to share them on here.

I don't understand what it is that I would need to account for as the splitter cable seemed to take the signal directly from the Roland divided pick up and send it straight into the FTP transmitter. I'm not an electronics wiz so maybe I'm missing something. Further clarification  would be appreciated  :)
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Vade

Well you are lucky to be working with the estimable Gumbo; maker of the great Synthlinx brand of 13 pin cable products. One of the great greybeards of the western tradition... (although I suspects he's actually a preternatural Kangaroo who disguises himself as human to put us at ease)

Nonetheless, the cable used to feed an internal FTP would be a straightforward 1 to 1 jumper/splitter.
But, the next bit would be very easy to miss. If you're making a jumper for an external FTP the sequence isn't 1 to 1 because the 6 wires feeding the signal from the strings are reversed as pointed out by Elantric when he said...

"When comparing the  the 8 pin connector wiring sequence for External FTP PU vs  Internal (Fender) FTP PU, it appears the 6 colored PU wires (one per string) occupy the first 6 pin positions, but are "swaped pin sequence", while pin #7 (Black Ground) and pin #8 (Large Black Earth coax Shield) remain right next to each other"

See post #61 for pictures and diagrams if this isn't clear.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.50

That said, I'm not positive that having the 6 wires reversed would make it appear that the signal is weak but it's something you might consider double checking...

Why? Because your options for getting FTP and 13 pin into your custom built guitar start getting very expensive otherwise. Last I checked you still couldn't buy an internal FTP kit from Fishman and if so your choices are to abandon your custom built guitar and start over with a guitar that has the internal FTP or buy a guitar with internal FTP, remove the needed internal FTP kit, and mod that kit into your custom built guitar. (Let's leave the potential piezo pathway out of the discussion for now as that's an even harder solution.)

If it were me I'd study the diagrams on the FTP wiring until I really understood it and then double check that the splitter to external FTP is wired correctly before I'd assume that it just didn't work.

Bon chance!
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

Hi Vade,

Yes, Gumbo the mystical bush kangaroo certainly shows us the way when everything stops making sense! He was great to deal with and super helpful not to mention a bag of laughs. Unfortunately I've parted ways with the GC-1 as I was short on cash a few months back and didn't really like the way it played anyway. I still have the splitter cable but I do recall we had an issue because the board in my GC-1 was not to spec. It was actually an internal GK-2A (as I remember), and not a GK-3...so we had to do two cables.

Just to clarify, the Y cable worked but the signal was weaker than when I used the pickup as Fishman deliver it. The issue was that the strings could not exceed about 70% of signal range. I thought I had a conversation about this with Gumbo and he mentioned it as a trade off maybe because of the thickness of the GK divided pickup casing (I can't fully remember and I can't find a record of it in my email history). So anyway, I can't replicate the behavior now as the guitar has gone to a new owner. I'm a bit stumped. Maybe the wires were reversed but I doubt it for two reasons: 1. Because there was signal present, 2. because Gumbo is very astute and I reckon he would've picked up on that as a potential problem.

I agree with your ideas about why this is the best method and suppose I will have to take this route again when the time comes but I'd like the FTP to be 100% functional so sweating a little.
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Elantric

My 2 cents - the output AC voltage level is different between:
*  Shadow hex PU (Antares ATG Internal kit)
* GK-KIT-GT3  hex PU
* Tripleplay Hex PU
* GK-2A hex PU 


I figure this contributes significantly why you may not see more than 70% max level on the String Sensitivity panel on the Tripleplay Application

Vade

Once you've studied the diagrams I mentioned then all you need to do is look at your splitter to see if it's wired correctly; or at worst you'd need to test for wire continuity with a multi-meter or something similar. The fact is that you're doing something I've never seen done before in feeding an external FTP from a GK hex via a splitter so it's on you to be the explorer and experimenter on this one and then teach the rest of us; unless perhaps somebody else has seen this done and can comment on it? In any case I keep coming back to this as a potential solution because your other options are expensive - as I pointed out before. One other thing to consider is using the GK-3 to trigger synths directly via something like a Boss GP-10. Some folks are satisfied with the results and it might be a whole lot easier for you. What a lot of fun this cutting edge stuff is eh?

P.S. With the new info from Elantric on the GK-2A hex pick-up (post #12) you might consider ordering a GK-3 from Andertons as suggested by GuitarBuilder above. Best of luck as always and keep us posted!   
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

gumtown

Sounds like you need a hex active buffer, where the input impedance is high, so not to load the GK pickup with a double termination load.
And provide a 30% gain for the FTP module input.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

whippinpost91850

You may be right. As I am getting ready to do the same thing, where could I get such an animal ???

Vaultnaemsae

Thanks everybody who commented.

I'm committed to having this guitar built and, as much as I'd like to, I won't be tracking down an FTP loaded Godin/Fender to strip for parts due to budget constraints. Plus I do also want to be able to use a GP-10 and GR-55. The guitar ultimately needs both a GK and FTP installed.

I'm hoping Gumtown might please elaborate or refer this topic's readers to some information about the above abovementioned 'hex active buffer, where the input impedance is high, so not to load the GK pickup with a double termination load and provide a 30% gain for the FTP module input.'

I searched the forum for 'hex active buffer' and I found lots of interesting threads but am not finding anything I can really grasp. I'm not sure where to begin. I probably need to go back and study 'Electronics 101'.

My builder is installing the GK kit as soon as I send it to him. In the meantime I'm trying to understand this 'hex active buffer' idea so I'll be able to get a reliable FTP solution too, sooner or later. Any help appreciated :)



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Elantric

FWIW - a "hex active buffer'  = the GK-2A / GK-3 Controller contains this,


see upper half of this GK-2A schematic with the six outputs "SIG1 thru SIG6".
but the installer must have electronics experience to know where to tap the signals, most luthiers lack this knowledge


Schematics
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0


Vaultnaemsae

Coming back to this much later. The guitar I mentioned last year is finally finished and has a GK-3 internal kit installed. Will submit pics to the board when it arrives soon. So, I'm about to start figuring out how to solve this properly, once and for all. I cannot play synths comfortably with the way my GP-10 converts pitch to MIDI. But, I do like the options regarding alternate tunings and instrument emulations. There is no space to install an FTP as a secondary device on the guitar or I'd just do that.

I'm thinking back to the experiments with the GC-1 and think that maybe I didn't test the combined FTP/GK setup with both GP-10 (13pin cable to floorboard) and FTP running simultaneously (I just wanted to feed the GK pickup to the FTP transmitter at the time). I'm wondering if this may have affected the reduced sensitivity of the FTP.

Anyway, I'm now thinking that maybe something like the device in this post is the way to go:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0

Still thinking about options.
1.  A device that simply plugs into the 13pin port on the guitar to connect the FTP transmitter (maybe needs power) - Not good for use without a GP-10.
2. A device that plugs into the 13pin port on one of those Primova multi GK boxes - Good if using GP-10/FTP simultaneously.

Here is a pic I dug up of the GC-1/FTP hack project.
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Vaultnaemsae

First attempt (early 2017)...unsuccessful.











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Vaultnaemsae

Second attempt...success!














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Vaultnaemsae

So my custom guitar with internal GK-3 has arrived, posted about it in another thread:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21266.msg153344#msg153344

Has anybody got a success story of building a powered and attenuated modular 13-pin adaptor to plug the FTP brain into the GK-3's 13-pin output jack? Or perhaps splitting the signal right at the cable on the hex pickup?

I have read all the posts regarding this kind of stuff and consulted with Gumbo to have a custom cable built (see above) yet still not really sure how to do this without any invasive procedures. There are so many pics missing in the really useful threads...makes it hard to follow.

I would hope to use the FTP in two ways:
1. Direct connection to GK system (for FTP only) - basically borrowing the hex pickup part of the GK system to feed the FTP.
2. FTP in parallel with the GP-10 /or/ ATG-100 - two simultaneous 13-pin outputs.

Is there anybody who can guide me here? My brother is an engineer and has offered to help me out with any tricky stuff but I'd rather approach him with a benchmark - if one exists. My only real insistence is that it must not involve further wood drilling/cutting/routing.

This looks cool but it only solves half of the problem due to the power issue when using it without a GP/VG?GR device:
https://guitarsandsynths.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/roland-gk-to-fishman-tripleplay-adaptor/

Any ideas? Potential mentors?

Thanks,
Luke
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Elantric

Quote
Has anybody got a success story of building a powered and attenuated modular 13-pin adaptor to plug the FTP brain into the GK-3's 13-pin output jack? Or perhaps splitting the signal right at the cable on the hex pickup?


FTP - DIY adapter to use GK 13 Pin Guitars with Tripleplay
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0



FTP - Fender Fishman Tripleplay Strat - install an internal GK Kit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

Vaultnaemsae

Yes, those threads got me as far as I have gotten with the GC-1 above. There's gold in the threads but it's a bit of a needle in a haystack game. Thanks anyway.
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alexmcginness

Quote from: Vaultnaemsae on January 29, 2018, 07:01:44 PM
Yes, those threads got me as far as I have gotten with the GC-1 above. There's gold in the threads but it's a bit of a needle in a haystack game. Thanks anyway.

Its still confusing. I just gave up and mounted a GK-3 and the FTP pickup side by side. Easy peasy.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.