SY-300 polyphony

Started by gumtown, June 09, 2015, 09:59:06 PM

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gumtown

Something I would like to know about this magic polyphonic pitch detection is

Does it do 3~6 string polyphony per OSCillator
or does it only
Do polyphony with one pitch per OSCillator?
Are we to expect only traids or full 6 string synth strums.
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shawnb

#1
My theory (and it's only a theory, not like I'm in their lab...), is that their DSP works on the entire input audio spectrum.  With processing speeds today, this is now feasible. 

I.e., how many oscillators has nothing to do with pitch detection.   In fact, pitch detection is not necessary at all. 

It's almost like there are two COMPLETELY different sound sources: your guitar and an OSC.  Your OSC is good for pure (additive) synth tones and for modifying the guitar.   

It wouldn't surprise me if you had to type/dial in arpeggios & sequences; you can't play them.  Think of the sequencer as completely separate from a synth COSM-like guitar processor.  Two different things. 

They can simplify their lives by completely ignoring pitch detection.  Why bother?   I have long thought that if they ignored pitch detection (and MIDI output) their COSM-type logic could go much further towards building synth tones, specifically sawtooth, square, sine & triangle. 

In my own sophomoric Puredata experiments, I've taken pretty serious steps towards turning ANYTHING towards a sawtooth. 

I'm sure they have whole teams on this stuff...  Pitch-to-MIDI scares me.  Altering harmonics of an existing signal to morph it to another waveform is much simpler. 

My theory anyway.  I'd give my left nipple to work in that lab.  Better than the corporate IT stuff I do...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

MusicOverGear

#2
Yeah I thought all this was settled - the idea that the SY-300 is just "filtering" as Gundy Keller says in his demo vid. I started typing something in the thread about the dearth of demo vids since Muiscmesse, but I felt like the mood was too negative in there, didn't want to be part of it...

I'm trying to remember everything from the demo vids, but I'm sure it's all there: no tracking, no midi, outputs an effected version of every little nuance that's played into it - mono- or poly-phonic. Three "oscillators" for the entire incoming signal. Also most of the demos sound mostly like what it is: effected guitar. Oh yeah and Vernon Reid checked in on VGF with his experience from his demo; I remember he said it was very nice, very COSM, NO glitches.

The OSC Layer Function from the manual (Page 6 of SY-300_e01_W.pdf ) that is the thing most puzzling to me right now. It seems the concept would rely on pitch detection. My first thought was, "If anything is going to glitch on this box, it will be this." I can imagine it being useful. Hard to imagine it's bulletproof. Then again I know approximately ZERO about DSP programming. IDK we'll find out soon.

BTW I really wish they hadn't called the three modeling branches oscillators. I was just bitch bitch bitching in another thread about they need to use standard words for stuff they didn't actually invent, and here they've actually got something new but they are calling it something it isn't LOL. Well now we know I can't be satisfied :)

Shawnb, would you expound on this? I don't grok the meaning, and I feel like you've put in some good time thinking about the SY-300, and you have a deep sensibility on this stuff.
Quote from: shawnb on June 09, 2015, 11:13:57 PM
It's almost like there are two COMPLETELY different sound sources: your guitar and an OSC.  Your OSC is good for pure (additive) synth tones and for modifying the guitar.   

mbenigni

QuoteThe OSC Layer Function from the manual (Page 6 of SY-300_e01_W.pdf ) that is the thing most puzzling to me right now. It seems the concept would rely on pitch detection. My first thought was, "If anything is going to glitch on this box, it will be this." I can imagine it being useful. Hard to imagine it's bulletproof.

I think the OSC functionality in the GP-10 proved your point well enough.  I know a lot of people are getting good mileage out of it, but I found it to be as glitchy as pitch-to-MIDI.  I didn't invest much time "learning to play" OSC, but it certainly isn't bullet-proof out of the box like COSM or other straight DSP.

Elantric

#4
I think many here are stuck in our past experience, thinking SY-300's Three OSC Synth = Three Voices per string  = 18 possible Synths sounding at once.

Instead it appears each OSC can be defined to "track" specific frequency ranges of the audio input, (typically guitar).


Basically the SY-300 OSC Synth can not achieve more than Three Synth Voices at any given time, thus only capable chords are Triads. 

Three note chords matches exactly the polyphony limit what I'm hearing on ALL SY-300 Demo Videos
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14586.0

IMHO, at that rate the SY300 is less interesting to me, and after reading the OM, I feel its MSRP is twice what its worth.

For Roland, the Boss SY-300 would be a top seller at $350

But at $700, for only three note polyphony , SY-300 is NOT going to be flying off the shelves.

Orren Merton

Here's my slightly educated guess:

There's no detailed explanation of all the DSP and science in what Roland calls "HRM" (Harmonic Restructuring Modeling). The best I could find is this "the sound from the guitar string is broken down into a number of harmonic components, and the relative levels and envelopes of these harmonics are changed to create new sounds."

So given that an "oscillator" is, by definition, a sound source, it's possible that the SY-300 does feature "true" oscillators in the sense that they are true sound sources, and their sounds are shaped by the relative levels and envelopes of the harmonic components that the sound is broken down into.

If we follow this line of thinking, it's plausible that the internal sound source doesn't necessarily need to do pitch detection, because it might actually be *unaware* of pitch. For example: have you ever played a steady audio signal, such as a steady synth loop or guitar line, and then tweaked a filter so drastically that to the ear it sounds as if you are pitching the signal, even though the actual notes haven't changed? (you can check out my song "Twenty Feet" for an example of this—the synth loop in the chorus is completely steady, one note, but by playing solely with the resonance of the filter it sounds like I'm changing notes).

Looking at the "Analog style" Step Sequencer, you can select pitches; it's possible that these are, in fact, the only "pitched notes" that the oscillators are aware of. In other words, you are playing "the oscillator" at it's default pitch, then tweaked out by the notes/performance of the player, and as far as it's concerned, it only changes pitch internally if you use the sequencer.

If this is true—and I emphasize I don't know if it is—that would be one way for this device to have no pitch detection delay, and also no pitch to MIDI conversion, and get great tracking. This could also be one reason for the dirth of effects that Elantric noticed—perhaps this process is extremely DSP heavy, and to keep the costs down, they had to limit the processing power.

Anyway, this is all conjecture. I could be completely wrong, and it could be doing some sort of pitch tracking of performed guitar. But I'm betting it's not.

Orren

MusicOverGear

Okay that all sounds like it jibes with what's in the video demos. So the OSC Layer function might just be HPF/LPF/Shelving/whatever - just cuts off audio at a frequency...

I take all the points about the definition of Oscillator. I think I am [/was] hung up on the idea of steel string of a guitar, which actually is an oscillator if I rack out my focus just a smidge from all the 70's and 80's synth stuff I've glutted on for the past year LOL.


Elantric

QuoteSo the OSC Layer function might just be HPF/LPF/Shelving/whatever - just cuts off audio at a frequency...

Exactly!

Spider

#8
So... Layer function isn't like in MIDI synthesizer ranges per voice? I.e. sound of OSC1 is triggered by notes from certain range, sound of OSC2 is triggered by ... etc. Question is: can one OSC handle full guitar polyphony (6 notes) and make sound from them or SY-300 can only recognize 3 notes - one per OSC?




gumtown

So the way I see it so far,
Boss have reutilized technology which was discontinued since the GT-10 in 2008.
Where the input is frequency filtered to the 3 OSC
like the GT-100, which has a 2 way channel filter.


And then passes to the 3 OSC, like the discontinued Guitar synth since the GT-10


Then can be used with a 16 step sequencer, like the discontinued one they called Auto Riff in the GT-10

with preset and user scales


I am struggling to find anything amazingly new about the SY-300 if this is how it works.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#10
QuoteI am struggling to find anything amazingly new about the SY-300 if this is how it works.
At this hour,  my review of the Boss SY-300 technical capabilities agree with Gumtown's post above.

In Engineering - we call this:

The "Three R's" 

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

And the SY-300 seems to share same DSP ( and many other components) as the Boss GT-001 

Too bad they could not provide a Firmware update to GT-100 that adds the SY-300 capabilities

Spider

#11
My dream was like on picture below but No computer, no MIDI, only pure 3 OSC + one guitar jack. It looks that it was and will be a dream in near future. So... not yet.


Elantric

#12
QuoteMy dream was like on picture below: No computer, no MIDI, only pure 3 OSC + one guitar jack. It look it was and will be a dream in near future. So... not yet.



Your image above depicts the Roland  / Boss  Marketing spin for SY-300
( and what I assumed would exist in the Boss SY-300)

But the  reality is after reading the Boss SY-300 Owners manual, it appears we all  must wait for the next version to get in the ball park of our expectations?

Perhaps there will be a 2017 Boss SY-500 that actually delivers the assumed capabilities of the SY-300.

Spider

MIDI Guitar 2 for polyphonic pitch detection from regular guitar cable is our future... but this is MIDI with all it's restrictions and benefits.

Elantric

#14
One thing that gets rather stale, is the pure marketing hype machine that launches rumors of grandness, when the actual delivered product has too may "gotcha's to be workable, or does not get close to match the corporate hype machine advertising

Witness the GR-55 advertising
http://dognmoon.prosite.com/178439/3292719/gallery/roland-gr-55-guitar-synth



Problem is,  in this instant communication world, the old 1950's salesmanship methods just dont work on me anymore


And honestly, not too many folks have a memory for the older Boss GT Guitar Synth engines that used to exist inside the older

Boss GT-5,
http://media.rolandus.com/manuals/GT-5_OM.pdf




Boss GT-10



Boss GT-100 Wave Synth


or the 2008 Boss GT-10 16 step sequencer

thebrushwithin

How are we coming to these conclusions? Did the GT 10 track as well as what we have heard Alex Hutchings playing on the SY300? I ask because I never used a GT 10.  Is Roland lying about having a polyphonic synthesizer for a standard guitar? You guys could well be correct, but I really hope not, as this is false advertising of a sort, and the repercussions could be devastating to their future credibility in the market place. I am keeping the faith here that their R&D has eclipsed any tech from 2008, given that faster processing has allowed folks like Midi Origin, to do what Boss is "claiming" to do, albeit without yet solving the pitch bend issue. Since the GP 10's arrival, I admit I have become a sceptic about Boss's decision making (midi i/o missing), but this would take it to a new level for me.

Elantric

#16
Here's what I see:

* Boss SY-300 has a faster DSP, that provides lower latency

* Each OSC in the  Boss SY-300 is mono = one note at a time.

* Combine three  OSC's, mapped to "trigger" on three different frequency spectrums ( Lo/Mid/High)  = three note polyphony.
Three note chord triads is the max SY-300 polyphony I'm hearing in All Boss SY300 video demos.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14586.0

Other observations:

* Many assumed Boss SY-300 Three OSCs would equate to 18 note polyphony ( three OCS's per String)

* Nobody remembers the built in  analog audio input triggered monophonic Guitar Synth built into Boss GT-5, GT-10 (No MIDI Required)

* Likewise the POD HD series employs yet another capable analog audio input triggered monophonic Guitar Synth  (No MIDI Required) 

* Seems to me I could get close to SY-300 experience today by feeding my guitar into an active  Tri-Amp Crossover

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/S3Way


and then a peak frequency tracking filter for each voice,

and feed each output into three used GT-10's, POD HD's  - each set to "Wave Synth" mode



thebrushwithin

The manual we have says each oscillator can set its range of notes, from A0 to E6, but the layer section is for using different ranges for different sounds within a patch. What this means to me is, you can set the range for each oscillator to go the entire range, without setting the fade in or fade out, which should result in all 3 oscillators covering the entire range of the guitar neck, whether each oscillator has the same sound or not. This would then be completely polyphonic, wouldn't it?

whippinpost91850

This couldn't be more true >:(

gumtown

#19
Quote* Seems to me I could get close to SY-300 experience today by feeding my guitar into an active  Tri-Amp Crossover
and feed each output into three used GT-10's, POD HD's

this is what I am seeing too, but I do want to be proved wrong.

The GT-10 actually has 2 independent mono guitar synths, so you could use 2 GT-10's and still end up with 4 OSC type synths.

NOTE: So far to date no-one here has a SY-300 yet, so these views are currently speculation  based on what to expect from past Roland/Boss experiences.
Don't want to put anyone off the thought of a SY-300 from speculative pro's and con's banter.  ;)
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Elantric

Quote
NOTE: So far to date no-one here has a SY-300 yet, so these views are currently speculation  based on what to expect from past Roland/Boss experiences.


My exact thoughts too ;)

jassy

Quote from: Elantric on June 10, 2015, 02:49:51 PM

* Boss SY-300 has a faster DSP, that provides lower latency

* Each OSC in the  Boss SY-300 is mono = one note at a time.

* Combine three  OSC's, mapped to "trigger" on three different frequency spectrums ( Lo/Mid/High)  = three note polyphony.
Three note chord triads is the max SY-300 polyphony I'm hearing in All Boss SY300 video demos.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14586.0

Other observations:

* Many assumed Boss SY-300 Three OSCs would equate to 18 note polyphony ( three OCS's per String)

* Nobody remembers the built in  analog audio input triggered monophonic Guitar Synth built into Boss GT-5, GT-10 (No MIDI Required)

* Likewise the POD HD series employs yet another capable analog audio input triggered monophonic Guitar Synth  (No MIDI Required) 

* Seems to me I could get close to SY-300 experience today by feeding my guitar into an active  Tri-Amp Crossover

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/S3Way


and feed each output into three used GT-10's, POD HD's

People, I understand that speculation is great fun, but you're really thinking that Roland / Boss has taken an algorithm (which consumed about 10%?) from the old GT10, which has put in a new box and has released a new product with a market value of twice the price it cost the GT10?
And to round out the big idea rather than incorporate a real ADSR, as corresponds to what ever you want to call synthesizer, yo have to use the "slow gear" algorithm?.
And all that in mono?
Do you think Roland really be such an ass**** to make this outrageous and fire a cannon on his foot?
I personally do not think so, I have many years using and admiring Roland products and see no reason to be so pessimistic about this product, about which some renowned musicians who have tried it have said it is revolutionary.

By the way anyone can put a link of this synthesizer GT10?

Elantric

#22
Quote
By the way anyone can put a link of this synthesizer GT10?

Boss GT-10 Synth





Here is the 2001 Boss GT-8 Wave Synth - these are Mono only



re read the Boss SY-300 press release
http://www.rolandus.com/company/press_releases/30146
Los Angeles, CA, April 15, 2015 — BOSS is proud to announce the SY-300 Guitar Synthesizer, a groundbreaking analog-style synth designed to be used with normal guitar pickups. Powered by cutting-edge BOSS technology, the SY-300 allows musicians to play latency-free polyphonic synth sounds with any guitar, with no special pickup needed. Users can also process their regular guitar sound with the SY-300's synth parameters and effects to achieve a limitless range of unique tones.

With the SY-300, BOSS presents an all-new approach to guitar synthesis that unlocks an extraordinary world of sound creation for every guitarist. Unlike other products that require a special GK pickup and 13-pin cable to access synth voices, the SY-300 can be used with any guitar or bass via a standard 1/4-inch cable. It also integrates easily with stomps and pedalboard setups, thanks to its compact size and versatile I/O.

Powered by ultra-fast DSP and newly developed innovations from the BOSS engineering team, the SY-300 performs its amazing synth magic in real time, with no lag whatsoever. This delivers a latency-free playing experience that's a natural extension of the user's normal guitar, allowing them to play freely and organically without altering their technique in any way.

The SY-300 is equipped with a powerful polyphonic synthesis engine with three separate sections. Just like a keyboard player with a classic analog synth, guitarists have complete creative freedom to build sounds with a full palette of synthesis parameters, including different wave shapes, filter/amp controls, and LFOs. There's even a step sequencer (with tap tempo control) for creating dynamic melodies and arpeggios by playing a single note. And with the cool Blender function, users can mix and match synth settings from other patches to discover new sounds instantly.

Beyond its synth voices, the SY-300's synth engine can also be used to process a normal guitar sound to create an endless supply of unique textures. Users can apply synth filters, change attack and decay characteristics, and create cool dynamic movement with the LFOs and step sequencer.

The SY-300 also includes powerful multi-effects to enhance both synth and straight tones for maximum impact. Four simultaneous effects engines are available, each packing a number of effects types including overdrives and distortions, Slow Gear, Isolator, Slicer, and many others. Some types can perform two effects at once, such as chorus and delay or delay and reverb.

With its graphic LCD display, three assignable footswitches, and dedicated on/off footswitch, controlling the SY-300 while performing is simple and intuitive. Two external footswitches or an expression pedal can also be connected for even more real-time control if needed. There are 70 preset patches that are ready to play, plus 99 user patches for storing custom sounds.

The SY-300's versatile I/O provides seamless integration with any setup. The Thru output can send the dry guitar sound to an amp or pedals, or be used along with the Return jack as an effects loop. Dual output pairs (Main and Sub) offer assignable signal routing options, while MIDI In and Out/Thru jacks are provided for interfacing with switchers, drum machines, and other MIDI gear.

The SY-300 includes a USB audio interface to capture audio tracks directly into music production software on a computer. Via USB, users can also route existing tracks into the SY-300 to "re-synth" sounds using the synth engine and effects to create new sounds for music productions.

The SY-300's USB connection also enables players to build and organize patches with the dedicated BOSS Tone Studio editor and download new patches from the BOSS Tone Central website.


and read the

Boss SY-300 Owners Manual
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15226.msg108674#msg108674


Observe in the Boss SY-300 Specification Sheet, the omission of the maximum available polyphony for the three OSC Synth engine


thebrushwithin

QuoteNOTE: So far to date no-one here has a SY-300 yet, so these views are currently speculation  based on what to expect from past Roland/Boss experiences.
Don't want to put anyone off the thought of a SY-300 from speculative pro's and con's banter. 

Well, I value most opinions here, very highly, and even though we are having educated guesses, I just wanted to know the logic behind what may be a sleight of hand trick by Roland. The test I will give it, after powering on,is very simple. Guitar out of my Moog guitar, with full sustain on, find an all synth patch (if there is one), and see if it is truly polyphonic. Probably will need to create a simple user preset, with note range on full, for all 3 oscillators, and let 'er rip! If what you guys suspect, is true, then back she goes, unless of course, there is something in the sounds, that blows me away, but factory presets almost always disappoint. As the zen master says, "we will see"!  :o

Elantric

#24
I expect most factory SY-300 presets can be summed up as "auto-Arpeggiator world".

The deal breaker for me is this one - if MIDI Clock Sync is missing, the SY-300 will be useless to me.

In my case same funds for SY-300 might be better spent on something I can use

Like u-He Zebra
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13010.msg94707#msg94707




or that new

Kemper Remote ;)


or send ShawnB a check for all his recent behind the scenes hard work keeping VGuitarforums alive! ( the right thing to do!