The FTP: My View (Warning: Very Critical Post; Dainty Sensibilities Beware)

Started by Now_And_Then, April 27, 2013, 02:33:18 AM

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Now_And_Then

 "No XP support" = "Deal Breaker".

Because:

1) I am intimately familiar with XP thanks to more than a decade's experience. (Note that you may correctly infer from this statement that I was not an early adopter.)

2) For the way that I work and for what I need to do, successive releases of Windows have been getting less and less usable.

3) I know how to troubleshoot and repair XP; I can almost always do so quickly and efficiently; and I have all the tools and utilities for XP that I will ever need.

4) EVERY piece of hardware and software that I need runs on XP. (Anticipatory corollary: if it doesn't run on XP then I don't need it.)

5) I have had one security issue with XP in over a decade (although to be honest I am not sure: it was in 2002 or earlier and I might have been running 98SE at the time. But because it *might* have been while running XP I will note it here.)

6) Microsoft is ceasing support for XP in a year. Unless they are going to force anti-virus and anti-malware firms to also cease support, then fact of Microsoft not supporting XP means very little. And things like my ZA software firewall will work on XP forever: it needs no support at all.

7) As XP's market share decreases, it becomes a less profitable target for malware, thereby increasing security.

8) A requirement that I upgrade my entire system for the sake of the FTP is actually a significant increase, not only in the money I need to invest, but more importantly in the *time* that I will need to invest in learning this new system, and the time that I will *not* be able to use for productive work while I am installing, configuring, testing, and learning to use, troubleshoot, and repair a new OS. And all of *that* is assuming Win 8 will run acceptably on my current hardware  - hardware which runs XP very very well. And so that in its turn adds an element of risk. That'd be humorous, wouldn't it - in order to run this little FTP applet to enable me to configure this hardware device, I could need to upgrade both my OS and my whole computer. Sounds great, where do I sign?! Oh wait, you know, now that I think about it, it actually it doesn't "sound great" at all. In fact, it sounds stupid. (Note that nearly all of this holds good for running Win 8 as a virtual OS, so don't think that that's any sort of solution to anything at all.)

9) What is this about "registering my FTP with Fishman"? Now I can understand that most developers want to eliminate any second-hand market in software, as it would decrease sales of new software. (Not that I approve and not that I can't usually find a way around it.) But unless I am mistaken, I need to register the FTP in order to obtain and use this little FTP configuration applet. Now if that's the case, and if that applet in only available to registered owners, then *that* in turn means that the saleability of the FTP is severely diminished (which is most likely Fishman's intention.) I have a word for that, and that word is "unacceptable". And I am not going to spend $400 for a piece of hardware that I can not easily sell if I feel that I want to sell it.

10) I looked at GTAK. Could it be that a little cottage industry based on what looks like price-gouging for useful add-ons enabling functions that should have been bundled with the FTP when it shipped, is already developing? I'm impressed! Not *favorably* impressed, though.

11) XP will have a large user-base for years and years to come. And these enthusiasts will always find a way to install it on whatever mainstream hardware is on the market. Make no mistake about this.

XP still has a very large market share. Now I can kinda sorta maybe understand why some of the throw-in bundled software which I would be happy not to have, would require Win7 or Win 8, no matter how foolish such a requirement seems to me. But most people I know, especially the ones making their livings from running studios, like to avoid upgrading a perfectly working system and thereby toss away years and years of experience working with XP. Actually, that's not true: they don't "like to avoid" - they "do whatever they can to avoid". So the question is, why exactly does the FTP software need XP? What exactly does it do that it can't do on XP?

I am asking because I am curious. Not terribly curious though. The truth is that the answer really isn't going to make a difference to me: if the hardware requires software that won't run on XP then I am not going to buy it. And if there are some software restrictions which are being used as a pretext for making it difficult for me to sell the FTP if I want to, then I am not going to buy it.

Here's another point. The people who make this are fully aware of how limited the midi-for-guitar market it. Not only is the FTP not going to change that, it's not going to change ever. I would expect that whatever "impatience" is being expressed by potential users, is actually being expressed by a rather narrow group of people. I would not be surprised if initial sales of the FTP were very very good, and then dropped off to almost nothing. That they are *limiting" the number of potential users by not supporting XP, instead of doing whatever they can to *increase* that number, makes no sense. But, it's their business, and if they want it to fail, then that's their prerogative.

I am using hardware more and more because I want to avoid all of this "upgrade the software, upgrade the computer, licensing restrictions" stupidity. And the FTP seems to be going out of its way to make sure I can't.




utensil

I too don't like the trend of needing to register to download the software. The software has no use without the hardware so piracy is not an issue (for the FTP controller software). Besides this one point I think that even without the software the FTP is hugely useful tool. If I'm not mistaken it will work in hardware mode in XP as a basic controller. This still gives you access to:

Notation of your Music
Controlling pretty much any VST you have on XP. (start in basic for trigger and with up button pressed for pitchbend)
Controlling Hardware Midi Devices using a pc midi interface or Iconnectmidi

While the GR/VG systems promised the above and onboard sounds, in reality the tracking can't compare though I still think the GR-55 has it's place (and the price is much higher).

I also read somewhere here that Fishman are in the process of clarifying the hardware operating modes which will make it more independent  of the software. (right now you at least need it to setup the string sensitivities once).




shawnb

You are right about the hw registration.   Pointless, and discourages resale, lending, etc.   It would be best if they lifted that restriction. 

As for XP, well...  My personal advice is to move on.   This will just be the first of many apps to come to drop xp support. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

thebrushwithin

Fishman support is swapping out my controller, which has had some problems. When I asked if there would be any authorization type issues with a different serial numbered controller, the reply was,
"No authorization issues". Perhaps the registration is merely for future sales.

utensil

I think it's possibly because IK and NI require that Fishman ensure downloader have legitimate license for the VST's . For the controller software It was probably easier to put everything in one software download page rather than have a separate registration for the third party software.

All in all as long as it's implemented well (my experience was very smooth) I don't mind. I was only interested in the FTP controller software as I already have guitar rig 5 and Komplete 7 and I use it mainly in logic and Ableton. I

Csewell

Dude, the included software is completely unimportant. Register the thing aim a friends mac, set your sensitivity (this takes 3 minutes), and use whatever soft synths you want. There's about 6 million, and half of those are free. You might be over thinking this.

musicman65

Win7-64 is the new XP. It will be around for years just like XP was. Its a "Performance Release" like XP was. Lots of similarities in the adoption rates and likability. Switch over and your good for another decade.

bd

polaris20

What does you not wanting to move on from an obsolete OS have to do with the FTP?

I hope your XP machine isn't connected to the Internet. It really doesn't matter how much you know about computers. If you visit a reputable site that's been hacked, and you're running XP, there's a good chance you're screwed regardless.

The 3.25GB limit cripples it too, in terms of soft synths. I totally see why Fishman didn't waste time with it.

aliensporebomb

I sympathize with your thoughts about XP but it's going away and support will be abandoned.  We got advance warning at the fortune 100 business I work in and have been preparing for its eventual discontinuance.  Windows 7 has proven to be a better operating system for the majority of our users but I'm concerned as Windows 8 isn't thus far.

As far as registration or whatnot, that's how software companies register products these days - online.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

musicman65

I wouldn't say he's crippled on XP.....that's not entirely true. My DAW is still on XP in my home studio. XP is way more hardware and RAM efficient. It takes a lot to cause a 4gb (ok, 3.25) xp machine to swap. It takes less to make a 4gb Win7/8 machine swap. It has to do with memory management and the 64 bit memory footprint. The new OS and apps use twice as much, it appears. A 4gb Win7/8 box is still pretty usable though....and can support way more RAM.

I still think he's better off moving forward though. Win7-64 is a good spot to jump in. Most corperate IT waited until now...its time to step forward. My old DAW is soon to be replaced so I can enjoy another 10 years of solid performance.

bd

polaris20

Quote from: musicman65 on April 27, 2013, 09:31:42 AM
I wouldn't say he's crippled on XP.....that's not entirely true. My DAW is still on XP in my home studio. XP is way more hardware and RAM efficient. It takes a lot to cause a 4gb (ok, 3.25) xp machine to swap. It takes less to make a 4gb Win7/8 machine swap. It has to do with memory management and the 64 bit memory footprint. The new OS and apps use twice as much, it appears. A 4gb Win7/8 box is still pretty usable though....and can support way more RAM.

I still think he's better off moving forward though. Win7-64 is a good spot to jump in. Most corperate IT waited until now...its time to step forward. My old DAW is soon to be replaced so I can enjoy another 10 years of solid performance.

bd

Windows 8 runs fine on a machine with 2GB. The way Win7/8 allocate memory is very different to XP/2000, with the appearance that they use a lot more memory. While they certainly use a little more, it's not as drastic as people think.

If its a case where the machine is maximized for audio, without being connected at all to the Internet, that's one thing. But an Internet connected XP machine these days is borderline foolish, IMO.

fr0sty

I never upgraded from xp to win 7 because I thought my pc would be slow.  I't a 3.2 ghz amd chip and 4 gigs of ram.  The fishman requirement pushed me over the edge. Win 7 runs just a well on my machine as xp did.

I will say, I didn't enjoy installing all the software and the registration stuff.  I really like how my addictive drums install.  I have a number of kits and expansion paks.  Simply go to their website, login and everything is easy to dl and install in one shot.

I will say I don't like the need to install 64 and 32 bit vsts in different locations.  That is partly due to only one vst folder in my daw (fl studio).  Every app wants to put their vst in it's own special location. It got old after a while changing that on all the software installs. 

germanicus

4 gigs ram was not enough for me with many modern sound libraries.
Some superior drummer setups by themselves are over 4 gigs when loaded with multiple Microphone channels.
Stuff like LASS and Voxos gets very heavy on ram usage.

Win 7 is great. Its win 8 that I dislike!
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

fr0sty

Yea, I ordered another 4 gb of ram, but apparently my mobo doesn't like having all four ram slots filled.  I see you have the jtv 69?  I have my ftp mounted on the same guitar.

tekrytor

Quote from: fr0sty on April 27, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
Yea, I ordered another 4 gb of ram, but apparently my mobo doesn't like having all four ram slots filled.  I see you have the jtv 69?  I have my ftp mounted on the same guitar.

AFAIK, If your OS is 32-bit, it will not recognize more than 3GB RAM, even if you can and do install more. I had Vista 32 with 2GB on my HP TX2510 and expanded tto 4GB, and could run it. But it only recognized 3GB max, with the 4GB installed. I installed Ubuntu 64 on a separate partition for a dual boot machine. Ubuntu 64 uses all 4GB, I ended up upgrading Vista 32-bit to Win7 64-bit to use the whole 4GB with Windows apps too.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

polaris20

Quote from: germanicus on April 27, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
4 gigs ram was not enough for me with many modern sound libraries.
Some superior drummer setups by themselves are over 4 gigs when loaded with multiple Microphone channels.
Stuff like LASS and Voxos gets very heavy on ram usage.

Win 7 is great. Its win 8 that I dislike!

I felt the same as you, but with Start8 Windows 8 feels like a slightly snappier 7, with extra little nice features (storage pooling, file history, tabbed UI for Windows Explorer).

musicman65

I upgraded to Win8 the day it released and my i5 tablet with 4GB is snappier feeling than before. It uses more RAM as a base load on boot but runs very smooth. I use the "Classic Menu"  add-on to give me a start menu...XP style too. :)

bd

polaris20

Quote from: tekrytor on April 27, 2013, 06:27:59 PM
AFAIK, If your OS is 32-bit, it will not recognize more than 3GB RAM, even if you can and do install more. I had Vista 32 with 2GB on my HP TX2510 and expanded tto 4GB, and could run it. But it only recognized 3GB max, with the 4GB installed. I installed Ubuntu 64 on a separate partition for a dual boot machine. Ubuntu 64 uses all 4GB, I ended up upgrading Vista 32-bit to Win7 64-bit to use the whole 4GB with Windows apps too.

The 3.25GB limitation for 32-bit is only true for Windows. On Linux and OS X, even when they were 32-bit only, they could still use more than 4GB. If you had 8GB, 4GB max would be used for the OS, 4GB max per app. Windows is the only one that's hard limited for apps and OS.

Kevin M

Quote from: polaris20 on April 28, 2013, 01:14:58 PMThe 3.25GB limitation for 32-bit is only true for Windows. On Linux and OS X, even when they were 32-bit only, they could still use more than 4GB. If you had 8GB, 4GB max would be used for the OS, 4GB max per app. Windows is the only one that's hard limited for apps and OS.

A truly 32-bit OS can ONLY address up to 4G memory. This is a limitation of the 32-bit architecture and has nothing to do with the OS.  Windows places a further limitation due to its video shadow memory requirement (at least I think it's called that).  So, under Windows 32-bit it's more like 3.5G memory.

Edit: apologies....a PAE enabled kernel can, in fact, allow applications to address larger than 4G

polaris20

Quote from: kmaus10 on April 28, 2013, 01:30:37 PMA truly 32-bit OS can ONLY address up to 4G memory. This is a limitation of the 32-bit architecture and has nothing to do with the OS.  Windows places a further limitation due to its video shadow memory requirement (at least I think it's called that).  So, under Windows 32-bit it's more like 3.5G memory.

Edit: apologies....a PAE enabled kernel can, in fact, allow applications to address larger than 4G

Some more details about memory usage:

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/2498/why-can-mac-os-x-32-bit-access-all-4gb-of-memory-while-windows-32-bit-cant

http://appleinsider.com/articles/08/09/03/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bits_santa_rosa_and_the_great_pc_swindle.html

macjones

All I did was download the triple play app for OS X, set up the controller, then plugged it into an iPad and into Sampletank. This took about ten minutes.

BTW, SampleTank on the iPad works really well with this ( ipad 4). I had already bought all the sounds, but they all sound good. Quite a variety.

This thing is light years beyond anything previously.

Of course what 'previously' is, is pretty sorry  ;)

Orren Merton

Quote from: Now_And_Then on April 27, 2013, 02:33:18 AM
"No XP support" = "Deal Breaker".

I can understand that; as a Mac user, I don't use Sonar X2, since it doesn't support my OS.

I don't, however, write "very critical posts" designed to rant about Sonar X2, because the fact that Cakewalk have chosen not to support my OS is in no way a product failing of Sonar. They don't "owe me" supporting my OS. They made a choice. I made a choice. And I move on.

Quote9) What is this about "registering my FTP with Fishman"? ... But unless I am mistaken, I need to register the FTP in order to obtain and use this little FTP configuration applet. ... *that* in turn means that the saleability of the FTP is severely diminished (which is most likely Fishman's intention.) I have a word for that, and that word is "unacceptable".

Yes, you have to register to download the FTP Control software. I'm sure that this is not a nasty plot to diminish resalability. My guess is that it's a way to attempt to control distribution without relying on copy protection. And with Fishman's other products that have a software component, a simple email is enough to transfer registration. So there is no diminishment of resalability. I have done this myself when selling a Universal Audio UAD1 card and transferring software licenses, companies that allow this (like Fishman) are used to it, and throw up no barriers or fees.

QuoteAnd the FTP seems to be going out of its way to make sure I can't.

Clearly, they made all of their choices in the hope of coaxing a rant out of you. ;)

Orren

polaris20

Quote from: Orren Merton on April 29, 2013, 01:28:01 PM
I can understand that; as a Mac user, I don't use Sonar X2, since it doesn't support my OS.

I don't, however, write "very critical posts" designed to rant about Sonar X2, because the fact that Cakewalk have chosen not to support my OS is in no way a product failing of Sonar. They don't "owe me" supporting my OS. They made a choice. I made a choice. And I move on.

Yes, you have to register to download the FTP Control software. I'm sure that this is not a nasty plot to diminish resalability. My guess is that it's a way to attempt to control distribution without relying on copy protection. And with Fishman's other products that have a software component, a simple email is enough to transfer registration. So there is no diminishment of resalability. I have done this myself when selling a Universal Audio UAD1 card and transferring software licenses, companies that allow this (like Fishman) are used to it, and throw up no barriers or fees.

Clearly, they made all of their choices in the hope of coaxing a rant out of you. ;)

Orren

Clearly it's just a business/support decision. Fact: XP is an 11 year old OS that won't be supported by its maker as of next year. Why waste resources on guaranteeing compatibility? Doesn't make business sense.

Toby Krebs

Windows 7 rules. It came with my kind of new Toshiba laptop that cost well under 400 dollars. I make that playing music a couple of nights. It's all working for me. The VG8-EX I still have is about to go away because it has no editor/patch exchange etc...same with old XP.This stuff changes all the time. "It's all a part of boating son"-a quote from an older gentlemen kind enough to tow my boat in off the lake it died on the first time.

Csewell