Best Looper for Ambient and Other Varying Tempo Music?

Started by Rhcole, April 03, 2014, 02:46:45 PM

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Rhcole

I have owned a couple of loopers and gotten rid of both of them. The clap-clap-clap-clap rhythmic approach that loopers like doesn't necessarily work well for what I like to play. I like to slow down, speed up, sit on a pad and then sprinkle in slices of samples and other sounds. I'd like to be able to generate textural ambient music with them.

Also, hitting the punch in and out points on them has been hard for me with my clunky timing using my feet.  :-[

I'm looking with interest at a couple of high-end loopers like the EHX 45000 and the Boss RC-300. Anybody have tips or suggestions for a looper that I might like?

aliensporebomb

Before I got my RC300 I used this:



Electro-Harmonix Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai.  It only had 30 seconds of loop time (1 stereo loop), no undo, but sounded great and had a very smooth speedup/speed-down/reverse.  I still use this pedal for delay and modulation purposes and some looping.

After that I got the RC-300:


It's got much more time, undo and I can use MIDI to insure my VG-99 adheres to the tempo dictated in the RC-300 which is pretty cool to have all my delays mirror the time of the RC.

It's much more malleable and you can do a lot more with it.  But it's also more complex, very large (arguably almost the largest pedal I own) and takes up a lot of floor real estate if you've got an FC-300 in addition to an RC-300.

I have a quick and dirty recording of a tune I used the speed up/slow down on:


I don't use it much because I think the reverse (assignable to a footswitch) is probably more useful.  It's not great at "extremes" away from the original tempo. 
So far?  I primarily use it for ambient music.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Rhcole

That's great ASB, but, what about key changes or changing the pacing completely? Almost everything I find with even the advanced loopers is essentially a drone of some kind.


Rhcole

Here's a great thread about this very issue:
http://fastfude.org/topic.php?id=17971
And from a bunch of Irish blokes, at that!

Hopkins

Since no-one else has said it: The RC-300 permits you to assign the tempo control to the expression pedal, so if you have a drum machine hanging off it you can quite easily ramp things up and down smoothly during a performance.  It will automatically time-stretch/shrink your recorded loops, which may or may not work for you depending on what you are using (the pitch shifting on the RC-300 is not the best).

I agree with the criticisms of "sounds like loop-based music".  I have always tried to use the RC-300 as a way to try to try replace a band - but that has its own problems like, well, like it not being the same as playing with a band :D.

MusicOverGear

I really like Ableton for everything where I'm starting with a lot of creative ideas and I'm not totally sure how to get it done with software. Its just really malleable and pliable to the musical will. Not just for looping, but obviously it does that extraordinarly well. Here is a little experiment I did before I got into the V guitar stuff, basically DJing what I play in real-time into two decks crossfading and doing DJ type effects.

DJing What I Play in Realtime with Ableton:

glennfin

The topic says = "Best Looper for Ambient..."

I take that to mean non-tempo, non-sync'd applications as in Frippertronics, etc...unless I'm mistaken in my defination of "ambient", this means things are happening in a random fashion.... non-tempo based.
I just bought an RC-50. After much research, this looks to be just what I need to compliment my pair of Echoplex EDP+'s for live performances. I don't do the one man band, drum machine, tempo-beat looping thing.

I choose the RC-50 over the RC-300 mainly because I'm not doing beat based looping and I don't have to add extra foot switches to add the reverse function. Yes, the RC-300 has some nice improvements but these all seem to be directed at users who do the sync'd, beat based, one man show thing. I'm already using an FCB1010 to control the EDP's. The RC-50 without extra added footswitches should do the trick for me.....

Check out the sound samples on our website for a better Idea of what I'm talking about.....

http://www.randomfaktor.com




Hopkins


mbenigni

QuoteDJing What I Play in Realtime with Ableton:

That is totally awesome.  :)  What are you using to get the bass sound out of your guitar?  Triggering MIDI, or pitch shifting, or what?  It sounds really convincing!

MusicOverGear

Thanks for compliments.

I can't remember what was the bass sound. Let me see if I can find that Live Set...

Okay it was Guitar Rig's version of EH MicroSynth into their SVT. So I guess technically not 100% native Ableton. Everything else was, though, including the Vocoder.

If I did that same thing now obviously I'd use a Roland unit as the audio interface and pump in V-Guitar sounds, which are better, anyway IMHO.

But I would still totally grab Ableton for anything where I'm manipulating audio in performance - grid or no. AFAIK it's in a class by itself as a sort of easy-to-use Legos set for realtime audio. I'm sure you can get a lot deeper with deeper tools - e.g. by adding Max - and there's less to learn and transport with a dedicated looper, but if you are ever looking for a very powerful toolset that is easy enough to pick up in an afternoon and powerful enough to do most things most people can imagine, Ableton is hard to beat. Also with Ableton you build your own interface; I think I had 4 treadles and maybe 6 footswtiches for that example, which took no time to set up. Basically what I'm saying is that I feel like with Ableton you can just imagine a sort of abstract music machine and then build it pretty easily in Ableton.

I hope it's clear that I'm not suggesting the OP should play the kind of music I like - just showing an example of how Ableton can do really tricky things without much effort. IMHO it would be great for the OP if schlepping a notebook appeals.

mbenigni

QuoteOkay it was Guitar Rig's version of EH MicroSynth into their SVT. So I guess technically not 100% native Ableton. Everything else was, though, including the Vocoder.
Wow, I never would have guessed that.  But you have a great ear for dialing stuff into a mix.

QuoteBut I would still totally grab Ableton for anything where I'm manipulating audio in performance

I agree 100% - if you're willing to have a Mac/PC on hand, Ableton is the greatest.  I've long neglected Ableton and all of my other PC software (including Guitar Rig.)  Maybe in 2015 I'll get back into it.  The other active thread concerning JamStix has really renewed my interest as well.

glennfin

#11
One of Glenn Fin's golden rules for live performance.... NO LAPTOPS ON STAGE!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

My RC-50 is arriving today.......... we'll see how that works out with my current live rig.  ::)

glennfin

To try and answer your question...... If you asking about non-computer based hardware loopers...
I've owned/tried quite a few different one's over the years and have come to the conclusion that no one looper does everything... they all have their +'s and - 's.... however, one stands above all the others in it's ability to morph, manipulate and generally mangle sound and that's the Echoplex Digital Pro Plus. So far, I haven't found a hardware looper that can do what the Echoplex can. Unfortunately, they're no longer made, they're a tad on the expensive side and you need two to do stereo looping.

You can't save loops... once you've shut down, they're gone but I'm now using my Echoplex pair in conjunction with a Boss RC-50 and so far everything's working out great.... ...

my 2 cents...  ;)


Quote from: Rhcole on April 03, 2014, 02:46:45 PM
I have owned a couple of loopers and gotten rid of both of them. The clap-clap-clap-clap rhythmic approach that loopers like doesn't necessarily work well for what I like to play. I like to slow down, speed up, sit on a pad and then sprinkle in slices of samples and other sounds. I'd like to be able to generate textural ambient music with them.

Also, hitting the punch in and out points on them has been hard for me with my clunky timing using my feet.  :-[

I'm looking with interest at a couple of high-end loopers like the EHX 45000 and the Boss RC-300. Anybody have tips or suggestions for a looper that I might like?

GovernorSilver

#13
I've been using an Elektron Octatrack for drone/ambient oriented looping.  I don't use loopers for music with key changes.

Anyway, several drone/ambient guitarists in my area use Akai Headrush pedals, some of them use two in series.  I got one on a clearance sale for just under $90.  My eventual plan is to have it running into an Octatrack input, then have the Octatrack sample from it and slice it.  To date though, i've been using the Octatrack to sample a looping track (ambient oriented loops mostly) and place back slices in another track.  I've also been using a Project I got from Octatrack God Anders Bergdahl, which simulates granular synthesis by recording very short samples from the audio inputs and looping them.  I've gotten some monster drones out of it due to the feedback.

Here I recorded a loop of free impro/noise viola, then use the Octatrack to transform it:
https://soundcloud.com/governorsilver/be-like-ghil-sep-2-2013

This one starts out with "peaceful ambient" loops and is gradually transformed:
https://soundcloud.com/governorsilver/sweating-in-the-red-orange


glennfin

Hi GS..... I've been looking adding the Octatrack to my collection for a while now but it's expensive and there are a few issues that have been holding me back.... from what I've read, it's a difficult device to use, and there is no PC editing software..... I may jump on one soon though... if I can find one used at a decent price..


Quote from: GovernorSilver on November 14, 2014, 11:47:18 AM
I've been using an Elektron Octatrack for drone/ambient oriented looping.  I don't use loopers for music with key changes.

Anyway, several drone/ambient guitarists in my area use Akai Headrush pedals, some of them use two in series.  I got one on a clearance sale for just under $90.  My eventual plan is to have it running into an Octatrack input, then have the Octatrack sample from it and slice it.  To date though, i've been using the Octatrack to sample a looping track (ambient oriented loops mostly) and place back slices in another track.  I've also been using a Project I got from Octatrack God Anders Bergdahl, which simulates granular synthesis by recording very short samples from the audio inputs and looping them.  I've gotten some monster drones out of it due to the feedback.

Here I recorded a loop of free impro/noise viola, then use the Octatrack to transform it:
https://soundcloud.com/governorsilver/be-like-ghil-sep-2-2013

This one starts out with "peaceful ambient" loops and is gradually transformed:
https://soundcloud.com/governorsilver/sweating-in-the-red-orange

GovernorSilver

I admittedly got my Octatrack and hard case for it for $1025 total, during Elektron's Back To School promo when a nice discount was offered on all Elektron products at the time (Analog Four was about to be released but not quite yet).  I also admit I spent a few nights banging my head on the wall (figuratively) in frustration trying to figure things out, because of important details that were left out of the manual - for example, the "Recorder Trig" method of sampling does not work unless you select a specific input - you can't just leave the setting at the default of external audio input AB, input CD, and internal track all enabled. 

Aside from cost, another reason I didn't submit the Octatrack as "best looper" is the limited memory for actual looping.  You only get 80 MB RAM total for Pickup machine (looping) and Flex machine sampling operations - the default config allocates enough RAM for 16 sec. of looping and the rest for the Flex machines.  You cannot sample directly into the Compact Flash card.  You have to either save from RAM into the card, or load the card from USB connection to computer.

That all said, there's a lot of interesting stuff that can be done that is unique to this machine.  Some tracks by the master (imo) of guitar+Octatrack work:

https://soundcloud.com/anders-bergdahl/percolating

https://soundcloud.com/anders-bergdahl/improvisation-in-november-for

https://soundcloud.com/anders-bergdahl/wtinforsplatt

Lately, he's gone into deeper exploration of the Octatrack-as-granular-synth-emulator concept:
https://soundcloud.com/anders-bergdahl/grainrhythms



glennfin

16 seconds? that kills it for me right there.... that isn't nearly enough for what I do..


Quote from: GovernorSilver on November 17, 2014, 01:43:21 PM
Aside from cost, another reason I didn't submit the Octatrack as "best looper" is the limited memory for actual looping.  You only get 80 MB RAM total for Pickup machine (looping) and Flex machine sampling operations - the default config allocates enough RAM for 16 sec. of looping and the rest for the Flex machines.  You cannot sample directly into the Compact Flash card.  You have to either save from RAM into the card, or load the card from USB connection to computer.

vanceg

Vance G Golden Rule of Live performance:  ALWAYS have at LEAST one laptop on stage.  Why not, 'fraid of computers?  Addendum - It IS ok to hide your laptop from the audience...and even yourself... as another rule includes: Be sure to give yourself hands-on control of any parameter you might need to get to on stage.

Quote from: glennfin on November 11, 2014, 10:38:26 AM
One of Glenn Fin's golden rules for live performance.... NO LAPTOPS ON STAGE!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

My RC-50 is arriving today.......... we'll see how that works out with my current live rig.  ::)

GovernorSilver

#18
Quote from: glennfin on November 22, 2014, 04:42:24 AM
16 seconds? that kills it for me right there.... that isn't nearly enough for what I do..

That's the default configuration on the Octatrack.  You can increase the recording time for the pickup machines up to like 6 min. or so...

...at the expense of RAM for the flex machines.

To me, the flex machines is really where it's at for the Octatrack.  You can slice the audio, parameter-lock, etc. - all stuff you cannot do on the pickup machines.  The Octatrack loopers (pickup machines) are nothing special compared to dedicated looper pedals like the Boomerang, Ditto, etc.  The flex machines are what really set it apart.  By taking away RAM from the flex machines for the pickup machines, you basically reduce the Octatrack to just another ordinary looping machine. 

Alternatively, you could stream prepared audio from the Compact Flash card via the static machines (your audio length limit is determined by the CF card capacity rather than the Octatrack RAM), but you won't have access to the full arsenal of audio mangling weapons that the flex machines have, unless you set the flex machine "sample slot" to the recorder buffer of a static machine, or to the static machine track output, in which case you can use the flex machine to slice and otherwise mangle the audio coming into the flex machine track input.

I could use get a tc electronic Ditto or something like that (heck, I could use Loopy HD on my iPad) for much longer loop recording times, then feed audio from that into the Octatrack for mangling, but I haven't had the need to do so, because of the direction my music has taken.

glennfin

Nope, not 'fraid of computers... at last count I have 8. For the type of music I perform, I don't want the audience thinking "all those those sounds are just coming from that computer" ... just paranoid about that I guess you could say,... and how will I have "hands on control" if I hide the laptop?  ??? besides, my eyes and hands are busy playing several real, non-virtual instruments... not interested in staring at a computer screen or playing with a mouse... that's for editing and setting up the hardware at home. but to each his own... I did say it was "my" golden rule.  ;).... In
my experience, there is a much greater chance of a lockup/crash with a computer than with dedicated hardware.  ;)

Quote from: vanceg on November 23, 2014, 07:30:40 PM
Vance G Golden Rule of Live performance:  ALWAYS have at LEAST one laptop on stage.  Why not, 'fraid of computers?  Addendum - It IS ok to hide your laptop from the audience...and even yourself... as another rule includes: Be sure to give yourself hands-on control of any parameter you might need to get to on stage.

aliensporebomb

#20
Quote from: glennfin on November 09, 2014, 05:01:26 PM
The topic says = "Best Looper for Ambient..."

I take that to mean non-tempo, non-sync'd applications as in Frippertronics, etc...unless I'm mistaken in my defination of "ambient", this means things are happening in a random fashion.... non-tempo based.
I just bought an RC-50. After much research, this looks to be just what I need to compliment my pair of Echoplex EDP+'s for live performances. I don't do the one man band, drum machine, tempo-beat looping thing.

I choose the RC-50 over the RC-300 mainly because I'm not doing beat based looping and I don't have to add extra foot switches to add the reverse function. Yes, the RC-300 has some nice improvements but these all seem to be directed at users who do the sync'd, beat based, one man show thing. I'm already using an FCB1010 to control the EDP's. The RC-50 without extra added footswitches should do the trick for me.....

Check out the sound samples on our website for a better Idea of what I'm talking about.....

http://www.randomfaktor.com

I will:

Also I did do a video recently showing how to do frippertronics on the rc300:


At the risk of repeating myself!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

Quote from: MusicOverGear on November 08, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
I really like Ableton for everything where I'm starting with a lot of creative ideas and I'm not totally sure how to get it done with software. Its just really malleable and pliable to the musical will. Not just for looping, but obviously it does that extraordinarly well. Here is a little experiment I did before I got into the V guitar stuff, basically DJing what I play in real-time into two decks crossfading and doing DJ type effects.

DJing What I Play in Realtime with Ableton:

I have to say this video is a ton of fun!  Bravo!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

glennfin

I thought  for a while about getting an RC-300 instead of a RC-50 but the layout/pedal arrangement and the fact that I wouldn't have to add external pedals and switches won out in the end. I'm having a blast with it.... using it in combination with my pair of EDP's.... nested looping... all hardware, no Winblows or fruit computers.  ;D


glennfin

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the multi cable setup with regards to emulating Frippertronics unless it's strictly a tone thing... The original Frippertronics setup with 2 Revox tape recorders had no "replace" function. He simply layered one part over another while over time the earlier layers faded.

Perhaps this is just to emulate that low-fi analog tape sound of the Revox setup?


Quote from: aliensporebomb on December 01, 2014, 08:18:46 PM
I will:

Also I did do a video recently showing how to do frippertronics on the rc300:


At the risk of repeating myself!

chrish

Quote from: glennfin on December 02, 2014, 06:06:22 AM
I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the multi cable setup with regards to emulating Frippertronics unless it's strictly a tone thing... The original Frippertronics setup with 2 Revox tape recorders had no "replace" function. He simply layered one part over another while over time the earlier layers faded.

Perhaps this is just to emulate that low-fi analog tape sound of the Revox setup?
since i'm new here, i've been reading a lot of the old threads and also looking into buying a rc-300. I saw the ASB video demo of shawnb's setup to get that 'frip' thing going and so i'm hooked. I have been trying to follow the signal chain to see if i can get a simular effect on the rc-20, but me thinks that the cable is important to provide a feedback of the first loop. Without having the rc-300 on hand and setup, i'm not sure i'm correct about this. I did stack an extra delay line on one of the sy-300 factory patches, and made some minor modifications to the osc, and produced a sound that builds upon itself, but it's not as clean as the demo that ASB so kindly posted. I'm very interested in this technique and to see if it could be done on another looper that's not as spendy as rc-300. As a side note, i seem to remember a King Crimson lyric that kept repeating '' i repeat myself when understress''. ha. Now i get it.