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GK-13 Reference Knowledge => GK-13 Interface Top things to know => Topic started by: fredo on March 24, 2008, 12:36:34 PM

Title: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: fredo on March 24, 2008, 12:36:34 PM
Hi all,

Those of you who own both a GK-2/3 and an Piezo (RMC or Graphtech) equipped guitar, how would you compare them ?

I now have both a Godin LGXT (with RMC) and an Hagstrom Ultra Swede with a GK-Kit (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=572.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=572.0) ). I made some A/B compare this afternoon, and to me, there is no room for debate : the GK-Kit does the job way better...
Acoustics are more realistic (which is strange since piezo usually give a more acoustic sound, but I guess it is all about how it is used by the VG to re-model the sound); distorted sounds seem sharper and brighter, with no palm muting issues; and GR 300 sounds become usable !...
And just in case you wonder, yes I have 1.04 firmware installed and used Piezo-R setting for the Godin ;-)

I am about to GK-Ready my Parker Nitefly M, and was wondering whether to install a GK-Kit or a Graphtech Ghost System... OK GK-Kit is uglier, it also is much cheaper (119 euros here in Europe, compared to 260 euros for the Graphtech Hexpander without saddles and acoustic preamp).

What do you guys think ?!

Fredo.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on March 24, 2008, 12:42:19 PM
Others share your opinion

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=492.0

Quote from: rudi rudolf on August 31, 2018, 05:03:18 AM
;)Hi everyone, after 7 years I tried those patches once again...and I still like them! They are played best with a hexaphonic pickup like the Graph Tech Ghost midi pickup ( for example found in godin guitars)....I found out, that Roland gk pickups are a bit too slow for midi conversion...but Roland pickups work better with modelling guitars in the gr-55, where hexaphonic pickups in my ears sound a bit too clinical and lifeless...
Well, after 7 years still loads of fun...thanks everybody for loading down those patches ;D ;D!!!

Actually  both GK-3 Mag Hex and the Piezo Hex Pickups
( RMC, Graph-Tech) move electrons in their corresponding Analog signal path at similar speed /latency
(Explains why the fastest tracking Guitar to MIDI System today ( Fishman Tripleplay) OEM models (Godin) employ either Magnetic or Piezo Hex pickups for detecting Strings. 

And a well setup GK-3 installed per Roland's specifications (rare), which is then Wax potted after initial installation  (to prevent the GK-3 PU Radius Adjust moveable parts from rattling ) will provide equal or better tracking speed to any competing hex 13 pin hex pickup system. ( Piezo, Atlantis Lightwave optical pickup, etc)
https://www.willcoxguitars.com/product/atlantis-hexfx-guitar/
Explained in this area of the forum

GK 13 pin interface Top things to Know
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=65.0
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Now_And_Then on March 29, 2008, 12:04:23 AM
 Is there any difference in the way that they work with an Axon? That could be a crucial question for some people.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: fredo on March 30, 2008, 11:04:29 AM
Don't know about the Axon, but I just compared the Guitar-to-midi feature of the 99 with GK pickup and RMC system, and again, the GK pickup is doing better...
While midi is more than usable with the GK pickup (fast tracking and no ghost note if you play "clean"), with the Godin LGXT, I have to lower the sensitivity a lot, and still, I have a lot ghost notes, especially when I put my right hand on the bridge...

Anyone else had a chance to compare Magnetic and Piezo Hex pickups ?
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: szilard on March 30, 2008, 12:12:12 PM
I haven't done an in depth or analytic comparision, but I have

1) Godin LGXT SA
2) Godin ACS SA
3) Fender American Standard Strat w/Joe Barden pups and GK2a

I got the VG-99 for the synth capabilites and put the GK2a back on the Strat to compare them. For synth models and midi I really don't hear much difference, it's just a matter of setting them up properly. I have a little preference for the ACS for bass models, but overall I like the LGXT because it's cleaner/more convenient - the strat doesn't fit in it's case with the GK2A attached! I haven't A/B'd the guitar models with the LGXT and Strat yet, they do sound different, but I can't say I prefer one over the other, I can tweak the patches to sound good with both. At this point I wouldn't recommend one over the other. I had a GK1 on an old American made BC Rich ST that I like, but the strings are higher off the body and the way the hex pup is designed it's uncomfortable, but since you can turn the hex pup 180 degrees with the VG-99 I might try it again with the GK2A.

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: philflood on March 30, 2008, 05:22:35 PM
I have several different setups. I currently own a Godin/Baggs, and a Brian Moore/RMC, along with a Roland Ready strat/GK-2A, Gibson Les Paul with an external GK-3, and a small run, boutique Exotica, with an internal GK-3. Generally, I have found the following to be true. With Roland VG units, including the VG-99, the GK series pickups offer better performance. The sounds appear to be truer to the intended models. For midi tracking on Roland GR units, the Baggs and RMC units performed better. I have not had enough experience with the guitar to midi feature on the VG-99 to offer an opinion of performance with various pickups and that feature.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: ganderpe on September 11, 2008, 01:00:47 AM
Hi,
I've just tested a Godin Freeway SA (tele style guitar) which has a GraphTech Ghost Piezo Pickup.
Together with the VG-99 I found the Sounds to be very very good! (I didn't test midi)
The Acoustic Sounds perfect, the electric Sounds perfect!

I've got a Godin Steel SA with the rmc piezos, changed it to the GK internel Kit,
because I found the E-Guitarsim to be better, but this Freeway is really superior!

The only reason why I don't buy it is, that the neck is not wide enough, I like the
1 11/16 inch nut.

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Kevin M on September 13, 2008, 10:53:35 AM
I have both a Godin and Brian Moore RMC-equipped guitars.  After reading some of the posts regarding the GK3, I added a GK3 external to my Variax.  I immediately noticed an improvement in the quality for the acoustic models and my rock/metal models when using the GK3.  I am currently working on a tune that uses a baritone patch and could almost always hear 'artifacts' when playing through my Godin; and this was after much setup tweaking.  It seems to be a lot 'cleaner' when using the GK-equipped Variax.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: carlb on September 25, 2008, 07:17:15 AM
Hey guys,

There's been a thread on this topic over at the Carvin site:

http://www.carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9918

Carvin uses the Graph Tech setup, and there's been some interesting finds about settings for the Graph Tech and settings for the VG-99 that make them work much better together.

Is this pretty common knowledge here? If not, it seems like this could help greatly improve the results with the Graph Tech system.

- Carl
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on September 25, 2008, 02:17:17 PM
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,138.msg367.html#msg367
ight out of the box, the VG-99 String Sensitivity was set to "65" - which was way too strong - made Acoustics sound all compressed, and results in poor MIDI tracking .

I now run things around "25" with my GK-2A

More details here:
======================

Setting Sensitivity
Knowledge Base ID: 104726
Product: VG-99

Setting the sensitivity for the divided pickup is crucial for optimum playing results. Use the following steps to adjust the pickup sensitivity in the VG-99:

1. Press the SYSTEM button.

2. Press the PAGE left or right buttons to select page one.

3. Press the F3 button (GK).

4. Press PAGE left or right to select page 2.

5. Press F1 repeatedly to select the type of pickup that you have - GK-3, GK-2A, PIEZO.

6. Press PAGE right twice to select page 4.

7. Play the high E string repeatedly with moderate force.

8. Turn the F1 knob while playing the string to adjust the sensitivity value so the box appears at the right side of the display.

9. Adjust the sensitivity for each of the remaining strings using the F2-F6 knobs.

Tip: For additional details about further adjustment of the GK settings, refer to pages 21and 22 in the VG-99 manual.

10. Press EXIT twice when you re finished.


* If the level meter registers in excess of the maximum level, it means
the level is set too high. Lower the sensitivity setting.
* Depending on the guitar you are using, the level meter may move to
the maximum level even when the sensitivity is set to the minimum
setting. If this occurs, adjust the clearance separating the divided
pickup and the strings so the distance is slightly greater than
specified.
11. Check the volume balance of the six strings.
Play the sixth through first strings with the normal amount of
force; if any string sounds particularly loud, lower the
sensitivity setting for that string, and keep adjusting until the
differences in the strings' volume levels are minimal.
12. Press [EXIT] several times to return to the Play
screen.
* Making these settings is necessary whenever you install the divided
pickup on a new or different guitar and when the divided pickup
height is changed. Once the settings are completed properly, they are
saved when the power is turned off. Afterwards, you need not make
the settings each time you play the instrument.
For more information on other parameters in the GK
Settings, refer to "GK SETTING" (p. 166).
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: carlb on September 25, 2008, 07:53:40 PM
So sounds like old-hat news around here.

Well, I'll definitely be working the built-in setup to the best that I can get it. Apparently the Graph Tech PUs on the Carvin have a switch to go between the Roland vs. the Axon inputs, don't know if that's new or not.

After amplitude differences between the two pickup types, I'd imagine the next would be spectral. I'd think the piezos would have a lot more high-order harmonics. Perhaps the VG-99 tracks better if the fundamental is more pronounced - a possibility as to why the magnetics seem to do better.

- Carl
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 23, 2011, 04:36:18 PM
Hello

This is my first post here on V Guitar Forms and I would like to say hello and Merry Christmas to All, I'm new to the guitar just starting to learn and I bought a VG-99 synth on fleebay for $700.00 ( I thing I got riped) one of the legs on the gk3 pickup was broke off when I got the setup but everything else looks new and all I have is a cheep guitar that needs some work so I thought about buying a guitar with the pickup installed, what would be a good guitar to buy, something reasonable priced maybe something on fleebay ;D I just don't really know should I buy a guitar and install a pickup or just buy one with it already installed, I was going to get a Freeway buy I read here that thy don't track very well? any advance would be great.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on December 23, 2011, 05:54:41 PM
I suggest a used Roland Ready Strat

These can be had for $450-$500 range on Ebay

Or Roland GK-3 mounted to a stable well intonated guitar.
--

Its a common misconception that the underlying guitar type the GK hex pickup is mounted on makes no difference in your final Roland COSM Modeled guitar sound. Even Roland Sales Reps misrepresent this as "fact".

Let me confirm that the type of Guitar (and its fret job, setup, action, string type, etc) you choose for use with COSM hex Modeling "V-Guitar" systems plays a crucial role in your final output tone from these Roland systems. Other important aspects are your Guitar's intonation, action, String type and gauge,  and playing technique - Piezo or Mag hex pickup type all make a big difference in your final output tone with your VG-99 or GR-55, GP-10, SY-1000


Need to also compare different piezos and know the year of production

To my ears the 2011 or newer RMC piezos are less shrill compared to other piezos during COSM Guitar modeling. 

For playing Rock/ Blues guitar modeling Still prefer the tone of a GK-3 everytime -not even close.

Most Piezos deliver an ice pick spike high end and  low rumble and hiss noise anomalies on high gain COSM  patches on VG-99, GP-10, GR55. SY-1000

More here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5551.msg38119#msg38119

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.0

QuoteI'm expecting better midi tracking ( with Piezos
Thats the claim
 - but unsupported in practice compared to a properly installed GK-3 , which only a few persue and accomplish.

I can say most GK-3 installs are done poorly and become the basis for the reports of piezo superiority for MIDI tracking




Learn how to setup your guitar here
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22311-ways-to-optimize-your-guitar-for-under-100 (http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22311-ways-to-optimize-your-guitar-for-under-100)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371247396426?lpid=82&chn=ps (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371247396426?lpid=82&chn=ps)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FMTU1OFgxMjAw%2Fz%2FZLoAAOxyGwNTBjtL%2F%24_57.JPG%3Fset_id%3D880000500F&hash=8ce9bf35aba0be5d5caabfeff1cd03a663420ec0)

Also while taking about differences in guitars  - I find it odd most users of Godin MultiAc Nylon String Guitars with Piezos have a hard time grasping why many VG/GR/GP-10  patches created by a Strat with GK-3 sound very different when used with a 13 pin Nylon String guitar. Remember on the Roland hex COSM Modeling systems the String is the source oscillator. If your nylon string guitar has typical Classical guitar characteristics of rapid note decay and poor sustain, indeed the VG COSM Rock Guitar Patch will also have poor sustain. 
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: kenact on December 23, 2011, 07:14:58 PM
I'm a fan of Godin guitars. You can find some nice used Godin guitars with the SA option (Synth Access) for a good price.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 23, 2011, 08:02:19 PM
Can the RMC board still be bought for the VG-99? :o also I read a post where they said on a [Godin] Freeway SA guitar (with Ghost Piezo) you had to jumper a wire or reground something I don't remember to make the freeway work right because the freeway didn't have all acoustic part of the hex pickup installed?

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 23, 2011, 08:06:34 PM
Has anyone use a Godin Freeway SA with the VG99? how do thy work together vs the Fender Roland Ready?
Thanks
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on December 23, 2011, 08:07:26 PM
QuoteCan the RMC board still be bought for the VG-99?

RMC sells many separate versions of the Input sub frequency blocking filter for GR-55, VG-99, VB-99 , Email them for price and availability.


Remember Roland designs this gear (VG-99/GR-55)  to work best with its own pickup - the Magnetic hex pickup based Roland GK-3 pickup.

Owners of Piezo pickup 13 pin output guitars ( RMC, Godin, Breedlove, Carvin) may experience noise anomaly issues on some VG-99 / GR-55 patches  - notably the Roland GR-300 "Pat Metheny" emulation tone.

An optional RMC subsonic filter board, mounted inside either the VG-99 or GR-55 can solve these noise issues

VG-99 Sub Noise filter
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=568.msg2386#msg2386 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=568.msg2386#msg2386)

GR-55 Sub Noise filter
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0)

and other third party 13 pin Gk sub filters now exist too
find them here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=127.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=127.0)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on December 23, 2011, 08:19:39 PM
QuoteHas anyone use a Godin Freeway SA with the VG99? how do thy work together vs the Fender Roland Ready?
Thanks


The Godin Freeway SA uses a Graphtech Ghost Piezo bridge PU with the Ghost electronics.

Having played and owned most all the guitar pickup types which work with 13 pin systems, I have my own opinion on what works best. 
Piezos in general will impact the overall VG-99/ GR-55 tone on every patch. While Piezos may be good for acoustics and some swear the RMC Piezo pickups work best for MIDI triggering, I much prefer the "VGuitar DSP Modeled tone" of the GK-3 Mag hex PU over Piezo hex PU's anyday, since I tend to play more classic rock / blues type stuff. To my ears, piezos always have this brittle top end - sounds like plugging an old "Glenn Campbell Ovation Piezo pickup acoustic guitar into a Marshall stack - it sounds wrong! It results in a very brittle tone when using overdrive rock tones - yes I'm talking the COSM Modeling Guitar and AMP tones - piezos hex pickups sound VERY different than the GK-3 type. Piezo pickups also add a lot of low frequency "boom" to the presets,  Once you hear it - you will know what I'm talking about.

I'll add at the other end of the frequency spectrum, the extended Piezo PU  high frequency response can clobber you too  -  I've worked with a few folks who thought the "ice pick" tone was due to a bad speaker ( or COSM Cab Sim "Fizz"), but in fact we traced this to the piezo bridge pickups.

If you can arrange it - try out a Piezo equipped guitar and GK-3 equipped guitar and A/B them and play and listen to each before spending the money.

Also if you play heavy metal and chocking palm muting rhythm techniques - just the physics of how piezos sense the string pitch directly at the bridge - and no where else - means piezos flat do not work in that situation without major change to your playing technique. Read the Variax boards for more descriptions of these complaints with piezo bridge systems when used for old school rock guitar palm muting playing techniques.
Add the similar Piezo Bridge "plink" Variax issue
https://youtu.be/NDGgW_QfHZ0


What also comes to mind is trying to duplicate Eliot Easton's rhythm guitar tracks to anything off the Cars 1st album using a piezo guitar. (Elliot Easton "Just what I needed". Its going to be a lot easier to nail it with a GK-3.

Also most piezo pickup tremolo bridges will suffer various anomalies:

*  Strings will cease to sound midway through dive bomb tremolo activities, because of a loss of downward string pressure on the piezo bridge saddles

* Because piezo pickups have a much wider frequency response,  Low Frequency Rumbles are heard from your speakers anytime you rest your hand on the guitar bridge. This can actually harm speakers anytime you touch the tremolo, and the factory preset patches will all sound a bit too "boomy", with too much energy at the lower frequencies.

* On some Piezo saddle bridges,  a mechanical cross-coupling of the adjacent vibrating string bleeds energy into the adjacent piezo bridge saddle , and creates horrendous COSM Alt tuning mistracking, and MIDI mis-tracking errors. 

I vote for a well setup guitar with properly adjusted GK-3 pickup as the ideal type to own.
_________________


EDIT March 2013:  As a footnote to the above "rant" from 2011,  I must add that Richard McClish at RMC pickups read this post above and responded by making updates to the RMC pre-amp Electronics.
I should re-state that bulk of my low opinion on hex piezo pickup tone was based back in 1998, with hours of playing Aure Prochazka's RMC Equipped Les Paul feeding a Roland VG-8. That experience is best described as "ice pick in the ear" city, with buzzy Metal patches. Later on in 1999 when I got my own VG-8 and used the same patches with my GK-2A, I heard smoother rock tones, the high frequency "ice pick in the ear" tone I first heard in these same patches  was tamed down dramatically using the GK-2A Magnetic type hex pickup. 

Fast Forward to December 2012, I buy a Godin xTSA with RMC Piezos pickups and pop the rear cover to discover updated new RMC PolyDrive- X electronics with a new 2011 PCB board. Using this new Godin guitar with my old VG-8 and the old Heavy Metal patches (which delivered Ice pick in the ears with 1998 era RMC electronics), now delivers much smoother tone, closer to the GK-2A type sound. Richard at RMC is a skilled engineer, and listens to his customers, and is continually making improvements and changes in the PolyDrive preamp circuit. The 2012 era RMC preamp circuit design (to my ears) is  much improved and different than the old 1998 RMC designs. 
   

QuoteI wouldn't recommend the graphtek ghost mod for your guitar. I have them in a Carvin guitar and they don't work as well for the the GR-55 as the GK-3 on my Tele does. The graphteks also needed the RMC OPT-100 installed in the GR-55 for improved results - still not as good as the Gk-3. 

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: kenact on December 23, 2011, 08:27:11 PM
Quote from:  Elantric
Many GR-55 users with Godin Piezo guitars also must budget the purchase of the RMC OPT-01 sub harmonic Input Filter board.

I have a Godin LGXT and an A4-SA bass, both have been used with my GR-55 without a problem. It was my understanding that the filter addressed a problem with the GR300 PCM Tones and/or the GR300 patches.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on December 23, 2011, 08:32:23 PM
Primarily the RMC OPT-01 Input filter addresses the low frequency hum and Noise that occurs when piezo pickup owners dial up the GR-300 COSM patch on the GR-55. Also Tremolo Arm movement creates rumble noise with most Piezo systems

The OPT-01 input Filter also helps MIDI tracking for piezo pickup owners - see this thread for more details:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.0)

It does not address the high frequency "ice pick" tone tendencies of Piezo pickups.

By contrast a Guitar with a GK-3 provides smoother distortion tones with the COSM Guitar / Amp modelling  - without the need to always grab the EQ and roll off the high end EQ to tame the harsh piezo pickup tone. 

But hey - everyone's fingers, playing technique, Amplification system and ears are different.

There are exceptions.
Case in point - Steve Steven's seems to do OK using a stock Godin with RMC Piezo pickups feeding a stock GR-55 feeding a pair of Roland JC-120 amps here.
GR-55 Guitar Synthesizer Steve Stevens Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkpnGFsD8Sc#ws)


While other Godin / GR-55 Owner's have a battle with low frequency rumbles and MIDI mistracking.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4551.msg30717#msg30717 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4551.msg30717#msg30717)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 23, 2011, 09:20:20 PM
Thanks Kenact, and Thanks Elantric for the very in-depth answers to my questions that has helped me very much, I think I will get the Roland Ready Fender and give it a try, I will post my results, although it would help if I could actualy play the guitar :-[, but that will come in time (I hope) :)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: tekrytor on December 25, 2011, 10:47:52 AM
Quote from:  kenact on December 23, 2011, 08:27:11 PM
I have a Godin LGXT and an A4-SA bass, both have been used with my GR-55 without a problem. It was my understanding that the filter addressed a problem with the GR300 PCM Tones and/or the GR300 patches.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm also getting excellent stock GR-55 play with only my Godin Freeway SA (with GraphTech Ghost Piezo PUs) and an hour or so tweaking the GK settings for optimal performance. It would be nice if Godin and Roland provided some better configuration info for the combinations of their GK products. I'll try to capture mine and post them ASAP. Maybe it can help someone else. There are some settings shown in the getting started thread, which got me going in the right direction. Lido's to the authors. I would have been lost without that.

To do a fair A/B comparison though, you would also need to include the correct GR/VG settings configuration in the GR/VG for each controller pickup type. I'm not a classic rock specialist, more all around player. Pop, rock, folk, jazz, etc, so I'm not the tube freak,while I acknowledge their amazing sound, warmth,etc. Basically, you can't just unplug one and plug in the other and expect to fairly hear the differences. I'm pretty sure that if the GR/VG were set up for piezos and you simply swapped to a guitar with a GK, it would not perform at its best either.  When you walk in a guitar shop and demo one or the other, most folks don't have time to go through the trouble and most shops don't have personnel willing or able (time, skill, knowledge, interest, equipment, whatever) to set up for a valid comparison. Usually, if they even have a demo unit of any kind, it's not set up right either. Most often, at the stores, you're on your own.

As Elantric points out so well, there are many factors involved, but it boils down to what your needs are and what your ears tell you is good (and bad).

All that said, I am considering the mod myself. WTH, I own most of the other GR stuff made. Why not this? ;)


Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 25, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
Hi
Thy would be great if you could post the settings that would give me a great place to start also, I have a VG-99 buy the parameters are probably the same?
Thanks
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: aliensporebomb on December 26, 2011, 07:19:16 AM
When I was evaluating the VG-99 in a retail environment I kept coming back to the same store and they had a Brian Moore guitar with piezo as the demonstration guitar. 

I found it good enough that I still wanted to buy the VG-99 and even though I am running a Gk3 equipped guitar now I think I could make a piezo equipped guitar work with careful programming on the high end of any distortion tones.

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: guitardog on December 26, 2011, 06:21:03 PM
Just ordered a Fender Roland Ready guitar from Musicians Friend for $754.00 with 2 year warranty and 4 payments, Hope it's a good one, how should I go about setting up the action can I make it low? also what kind of strings works best with the Roland pickup? I read some where that deferent metals would affect the pickup?
Thanks
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: mooncaine on December 26, 2011, 06:53:04 PM
Strings: just use normal electric guitar strings. I don't think you have anything to worry about unless you buy some new kind of string made from Unobtainium or coated with Hagar's* Hair Hash Pomade. I happen to like D'Addario XL something-or-others, and I buy 'em from juststrings.com so I've always got extras in my goodie bag.

Action: set it so you don't hear fret buzzing. That's important if you're going to hook up your VG-99 to a MIDI synthesizer. If you're not going to do that, I don't think fret buzzes matter much. I could be wrong. I set mine up crazy low, then gradually set it higher till I can bend the high E string and hold a note without it buzzing out by bumping into the frets.

*I just like the name Hagar. No disrespect to the famous singer (hey, I think his voice is awesome for rock music).
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: datsunrobbie on December 26, 2011, 07:27:06 PM
I'll second the D'Addario XL's. As for set-up, intonation is critical to good performance with the RR Strat. Be prepared to spend a little time dialing it in and you should be able to get very good results.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: tekrytor on January 01, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
Quote from:  guitardog on December 25, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
Hi
Thy would be great if you could post the settings that would give me a great place to start also, I have a VG-99 buy the parameters are probably the same?
Thanks

@GuitarDog, sorry for the delay responding.

Not sure about the VG-99. The PDF at the link.below is what I used to get my "Sensitivity" settings optimized for my Godin Freeway SA on my GR-55, or I use gumtown's GR-55 Floorboard editor for even easier adjustment. I think it's good to know the manual steps through, in case you need to do it live, without the editor handy. I like this Roland sales aid doc for a quick overview of the main features and setup for the 55. They seem to have worked out a simple method for their reps to demo with. Sensitivity may be similar on the 99, but not having one myself, I can't say.

My own Godin's "Sensitivity" settings are around 75 for all but the A string, which is around 65, just for example. As electric guitar, this one is A resonant, so that's probably why it needs less on the A string. But that's all relevant  for my rig and playing style, where by adjusting the sensitivity, it made a huge difference in the actual usability and playability of the instrument. I think it will be somewhat unique for each user and rig though. Most of my other 13-pin Roland gear also have sensitivity adjustments, so I would think the 99 is similar.

ROLAND GR-55 GUITAR SYNTHESIZER TRAINING GUIDE: cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/GR-55_Training_Guide.pdf (http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/GR-55_Training_Guide.pdf)






Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: paults on January 02, 2012, 05:52:31 PM
Get rid of fret buzzing for the modeled guitar sounds, too, unless you want all the guitars to buzz.  The fundamental sound of the guitar is where the modeling gets its beginning - if a guitar buzzes, or has no sustain, the models will all have the same characteristics.   
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 17, 2012, 12:26:52 PM
I know there are a lot of parameters that need to be tweaked to get things set up.  I learned that a few weeks ago when I first got my GR-55.  This isn't so much the tracking issues here and getting rid of the unintentional triggers that i'm talking about here I expected to have to tweak those, but all my patches sound different.

I guess the GK-3 is the way to go, I mean it's the early runnings with the ghost system but the GK-3 sounds a lot better all around so far.  I would have thought the piezos would work better but it appears I'm mistaken.  I may have to invest in a GC-1 start.  Anyone tried one?  Comments? about the GC-1 strat or the issue I'm having?
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on June 18, 2012, 12:36:57 AM
Read the GR-55 FAQ Top things to know thread.

www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0)

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Jim Williams on June 18, 2012, 08:26:48 AM
Take a look at this it works great for peizo guitars.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3137.0;attach=4864 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3137.0;attach=4864)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 18, 2012, 09:02:34 AM
Thanks Guys!!
I'm so glad I found this forum, lots of very helpful members.
I will read through these threads, I would be really happy if I can get consistent sound between the piezos and the GK-3.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 18, 2012, 02:33:29 PM
Ok so I read through some of the material, interesting stuff. I haven't really had a chance to experiment with my piezo guitar yet but I will soon.  I just have a few more questions.

1) Jim, in the write up that you sent me it says that for piezos a lot of threads say to set the sensitivity to 0.  I take it that your opinion is quite the opposite and that it should be set has high as possible without going over the level meter.

2) What is the OPT-1 from RMC all about.  I can see that it is a device that you install right inside the GR-55 and that it is reversible, but will that be something I don't want installed when using a GK-3 pick-up.  I will try to read up a little more on it to see what it offers specifically in terms of tracking and tone.

3) Elantric, I noticed in some of your materials that you felt the piezos sounded too brittle.  I don't know that I would say i find it brittle and there do seem to be parameter settings for the tone of the piezo pickups in the settings.  To give an example of what I am experiencing.  I have a patch which is a tele neck pickup into a Twin.  With the GK-3 it sounds very clean and clear, with the piezo it sounds over driven and muddy.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on June 18, 2012, 02:48:57 PM
Just my observations - i try to be consistent with my views, but we are all still learning new things here.

* Piezo 13 pin hex pickup suppliers (RMC, Ghost, LR Baggs, Fishman) all seem to have designed their hex GK compatible preamp products to feed Guitar to MIDI convertors.  (Axon, Roland, etc) They also all seem to have increased gain compared to a Roland GK-2A or GK-3 magnetic hex system.

As a result - to set up a GR-55 or VG-99 COSM Modelling for use with a piezo hex guitar, to match the performance and tone of the GK-3 pickup (which Roland uses when creating these COSM Model presets) you must set the GK type to the appropriate Piezo type Brand used in your guitar, set the Tone  /EQ controls to taste - but you also must lower the GK pickup gain. You always want to avoid maxing out the VU meters for GK String sensitivity.

I set the GK String sensitivity gain for each string so that playing each string with my hardest pick attack = the String Sensitivity VU meter on the VG-99 or GR-55 only goes 85%-90% full scale.

Fresh from the factory, or after a full Factory reset -  the GK String sensitivity is "65"  -which is too high for ANY GK pickup.

I set the string sensitivity of my GK-3 pickups to 25-30 range, and my Piezo pickup guitars are set at the 0-10 range. (Really depends on the year. make of the Piezo pickup)  This is a compensation for the increased signal output of most 13 pin piezo pickup preamp boards ( Ghost MIDI Expander preamp, RMC Polydrive preamp)

Piezo pickups if left at the Roland default String Sensitivity of "65" (or higher) can easily overload and distort the COSM Modeling in the Roland VG-99 and GR-55.   

To answer your question about the RMC OPT-01 input filter board - see this reply:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.msg42964#msg42964 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3236.msg42964#msg42964)

But I would hold off making any new purchases until after installing the next GR-55 Firmware (due later this month)- which is supposed to contain a different gain structure for Piezo pickup settings, in an effort to improve piezo pickup tracking and noise problems with the GR-55.

Bulk of what we know about the next rev GR-55 firmware is posted here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5835.msg41310#msg41310 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5835.msg41310#msg41310)

May 14, 2012  Tom K wrote>
QuoteAfter asking Roland Japan (actually, Boss Japan) about the difference between the blue and black GR-55s, I got this reply, quote:

"We updated the program of GR-55 from ver1.02 to ver1.50 at the
timing of releasing black type.
The program is available for both blue and black type.

For piezo pickup, we adjusted the level display of GK sens when
selecting piezo, piezo G, and piezo R type.
We think the customer who uses piezo guitar can adjust the GK sens
more correctly and reduce the tracking problem.

We will inform the updating information at web site on June."


Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 18, 2012, 03:56:13 PM
Thanks so much for all the helpful info.  I'm eagerly looking forward to the 1.50 update.  I will wait for that first before ordering an OPT-01.  I will also experiment with some of your sensitivity settings in the interim.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Jim Williams on June 18, 2012, 04:29:08 PM
I don't have the OPT-1 because my tracking advice solved some of the issues other peizo pickup users were having.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 18, 2012, 05:16:10 PM
Thanks Jim, I now have a lot of things to try out to try to bring my piezo (Ghost by the way with Hexpander) in line with the GK sound.  The idea really is to be able to use either guitar and have consistent sound.  You never know when your gonna break a string.  I think I could change guitars and choose a different profile in the main settings unit fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Jim Williams on June 18, 2012, 06:06:31 PM
I had the same trouble getting my GK-3 guitar to sound like my Ghost system guitar. My solution was to go into my GK settings for my GK-3 guitar and select peizo g for a pickup type and use the peizo EQ high and low instead of the GK string distance settings. Sometimes you need to step outside the box and learn what rules to break. The only rule you should always stick to is if it sounds good do it.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 21, 2012, 05:26:53 AM
Just thought I would give a bit of an update.  I got the strat (with ghosts) out last night and was dicking around with the settings based on a bunch of the info that was provided here and although I don't quite have it dialled in yet, I'm getting a lot closer. 

I feel like if I'm at the point where I could tweak patches to sound good and at least it's behaving as far as crosstalk and tracking goes.  But I would to try to dial it in to the point where I could plug in either guitar and get the same sound.   I'll wait to see what the next update brings.  If that doesn't solve it I'll maybe buy one of those RMC OPT-01 sub filter  thingies.

I'm at the point where I have hope!!!
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: phals2002 on August 16, 2013, 11:13:00 PM
Sorry for the confusing subject  ;D
What I mean is which approach is better in terms of zero-ghost-notes problem : GK pickup (with string floating above the pickup) or RMC/ghost pickup where string directly attached/clamped (sorry for the terms, cant find a proper word) to the saddle pickup?

The reason is right now I want to buy Godin multiac spectrum... Been using GK equipped gears these years and now want to get a new experience of non GK pickup....

Using GK still got glitches and ghost notes in some presets.... So i was hoping that perhaps with non GK pickup the problem will reduce (???).
Please share your thoughts... Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gumtown on August 17, 2013, 12:57:35 AM
Magnetic vs Piezo
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.25 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.25)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: LeeMorant on August 17, 2013, 01:09:12 AM
Technology hasn't made it to the point of eliminating ghost notes yet, the only thing that will is perfect technique on your part.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Cricket on August 17, 2013, 04:49:58 AM
My 2 cents....

1) Don't use the presets.

2) Do read and use Shawnb's setup tips found here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=31 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=31)

The presets are, at best, sort of ok.  To my ears, most of them are pretty useless in real-life contexts, though they can be fun to fool around with, or as examples of what you can do.  You're much better off creating your own, dialed in to where you want them.

I use a GK3 and have been very happy with it.  Likewise, I know folks who use something else and are very happy with it.  If you want a Godin b/c you want a Godin, go for it;  they're great guitars.  If you want a Godin b/c you think it will make your ghost note problems go away... it won't.   At least, not without setting it up as described above.

Getting the best response from any pickup involves finding the best balance among:  your pickup settings, your patch settings, and your technique.  As a previous post says "...perfect technique on your part."   That's true, and we can always strive to improve our technique.   On the other hand, really good technique plus a lot of dialing in your settings will get you what you are after.   

I think. ;D

Peace,

C

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 17, 2013, 09:37:15 AM
For many GR-55 Owners a Piezo Hex PU guitar has more difficulty as often just touching the bridge may generate a false note. Read all the GR-55 docs in our Downloads area will reveal tips to tame ghost notes on any PU type.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=18 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=18)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: musicman65 on August 17, 2013, 09:45:00 AM
Also, in addition to picking up bridge/saddle noises, the raw Piezo hex signal has a high frequency peak that varies by brand and saddle type. This comes through in COSM Guitar sounds....especially using high gain amps. With Acoustic COSM models, it can be an asset by adding more attack and crispness.

If you are a high gain player, Piezos might not be best for you.

bd
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Toby Krebs on August 17, 2013, 10:09:01 AM
I don't use any piezo pup guitars although I dig the Godin synth guitars. The reason I don't is simple. I have read too many forum posts on various forums about them failing and my GK pickups never fail. I have one GK-2 that is as old as my first GR-1 and it still works flawlessly. Same reason I won't buy a Variax. I can't deal with piezo element problems.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: OldGuitarDude on August 17, 2013, 11:25:29 PM
I have an lgxt/rmc piezos and a Strat w/gk3. Love them both. Follow all the excellent advice above and I think you'll be happy with the results on both the gk3 and piezos. I haven't had the Godin very long (couple of years) so I can't comment on long-term piezo reliability. I'm in S. Fla and do a few beach gigs. The piezos usually don't make it to the beach with me, but I think they would be fine.

Technique is extremely important as LeeMorant said. After all that, remember what Chet Atkins used to say.... "leave the clams in."
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on August 23, 2013, 02:57:34 PM
I tried with piezos that I installed myself and found it difficult to dial in.  The GK3 seemed to be a lot easier to dial in for me.  I've never tried the Godin, but I'm thinking the fact that they have installed their piezos professionally for the purpose of using with a guitar synth would yield better results than I had with my own install.  I think both can work great, I've seen guys do great things with piezos on youtube, but I'm a GK3 guy.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Toby Krebs on August 24, 2013, 09:52:39 AM
I have 4 GK pickups and move them to 7 different guitars. I can take one off and put it on another guitar in about 30 min. and that includes checking/changing settings if I need to. I like that flexibility a lot!
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: datsunrobbie on August 26, 2013, 06:41:45 AM
I have minimal experience with piezo pickups for hex processing, been using mag pickups for it since the G707 came out. Technique is the only way to eliminate ghost notes. This was proven to me when Chet Atkins showed up at Claymon Sawyer's music store in Elizabeth City, NC in 1985 while I was there showing Claymon what sounds the GR700 could make. When I played it there were bad notes and multiple octave jumps all over, and when Claymon played most of them were gone. Then Mr. Atkins took a turn at it, and after a just a minute all the ghost notes disappeared, and he really seemed to be having fun with it. I still have the GR700/G707, and still get a few ghost notes when I play it, all these years later.

My advice for anyone getting into hex processing is to first find the guitar that feels right, then worry about the hex processing. If you can find a guitar that feels right and already has a pickup, and it is set up properly, you're most of the way there. After I swapped the GK-2a "wart" for a GK-KIT install on my American Standard Strat I found it worked a lot better. I truly believe most of the improvement was that I was so happy that I had actually managed to pull off installing the pickup that it made me even happier to pick up that strat, which translated to better playing on my part. If you have played the Godin you plan to purchase (not just A Godin, but THE Godin) and it feels right, I think you might see a reduction in false triggering - but not because of any measurable difference in the pickups.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Litesnsirens on August 27, 2013, 06:00:44 AM
I agree that technique has a lot to do with false triggering and ghost notes but so do the settings in the GR-55 and the setup on the guitar.  You can reduce these issues a ton by getting the settings right.  Once you get that right if your still having issues you need to clean up your playing style a bit.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: datsunrobbie on August 27, 2013, 08:00:41 AM
Quote from:  Litesnsirens on August 27, 2013, 06:00:44 AM
I agree that technique has a lot to do with false triggering and ghost notes but so do the settings in the GR-55 and the setup on the guitar.  You can reduce these issues a ton by getting the settings right.  Once you get that right if your still having issues you need to clean up your playing style a bit.

Absolutely!  :D If the hardware is not set up right it won't ever track properly. With good technique even a stock G707/GR700 (properly set up) can track very well, and the GR-55 is a lot easier to tweak to optimize it for your guitar and your playing. The G707 has 6 trim pots, one to adjust the output level for each string, and I don't remember having any sort of editing on the GR700 to adjust the input levels. On the GR-55 you get settings for each string and a meter to look at to help get it set up, so the software has come a long way, and it's a lot easier to tweak the levels to compensate for less-than-ideal pickup placement.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Bill Ruppert on August 27, 2013, 08:19:31 AM
100% the way I feel!

Quote from:  musicman65 on August 17, 2013, 09:45:00 AM
Also, in addition to picking up bridge/saddle noises, the raw Piezo hex signal has a high frequency peak that varies by brand and saddle type. This comes through in COSM Guitar sounds....especially using high gain amps. With Acoustic COSM models, it can be an asset by adding more attack and crispness.

If you are a high gain player, Piezos might not be best for you.

bd
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 27, 2013, 08:31:18 AM
Count me in as another one who prefers GK-3 type (actually a Yamaha G1D ) and I own them all.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: melodymann on August 28, 2013, 09:42:15 AM
I think it needs to be clarified that the piezos are only a problem with Roland gear. So with the 55, yes the hex works better out of the box. But I've always gotten better results with an RMC system into my Axon. One of my favourite setups was Godin 13 pin >> Axon >> midi out >> GR33. This gave me Axon tracking and fret/pick/string splits with Roland sounds/ FX/controllers/arpeggiator/harmonizer etc. I would do the same now but as we all know the 55 sounds can't be played via midi...a crying shame!!

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 28, 2013, 10:01:53 AM
On this topic - many folks forget that the Roland COSM Guitar Modeling (VG-99 and GR-55) is like having 6 separate Boss GT-100's - one per string.

Trying to tame a Piezo signal source and massage it into a believable tone that a typical  Les Paul feeding a 1966  JTM45 Marshall amp is quite a "Tone battle" for many.

Meanwhile a magnetic hex pickup PU feeding a  VG-99 or GR-55 or GP-10 DOES accomplish this task


However a Ghost / RMC Piezo feeding a VG-99/ GR-55 presents the same issues one would have if plugging an Ovation Piezo Acoustic Electric into 1966  JTM45 Marshall amp. Even if the amp was isolated in a separate room ( to prevent feedback)  - Most agree its a rather brittle sound.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: shawnb on August 28, 2013, 10:42:54 AM
You HAVE to separate the modeling performance from the synth/PCM performance for this kind of discussion.   

For triggering synth sounds, I can't tell the difference between piezos & a well-config'd GK.  There's something very solid about piezos driving synths that seems slightly less problematic than mags, which seem to take a little more configuration to get it just right.  But once there, they're solid.

For modeling sounds, you will definitely hear differences between a piezo based pu and a mag based pu.   This is because modelers build up the sound using the guitar signal as its base, and piezos have more of a bright accoustic base sound and mags have more of a warm pickup base sound. 

As a result, to me, when run thru a modeling engine, mag PUs lend themselves better to electric guitar sounds, whereas piezos lend themselves better for accoustic sounds and synth sounds.  You can compensate somewhat with EQ & other effects. 

Like any of these age-old debates - it depends on what you want to do!

Shawn
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Tonato on December 21, 2014, 03:57:06 AM
Hi!

I've just read this whole thread and found it really interesting!

I have a fender GK ready which I love when connected to my VG8. I am going to buy a Godin LGXT quite soon as I believe that tracking with GR works better with the piezo, and also love the many features of the guitar.... but wasn't sure about the sound with VG using a piezo and that's how I came to this thread.

I've seen in the Steve Stevens video that he has a floyd rose tremolo. I was wondering how difficult (or expensive) would be to modify that in a LGXT as I've read many people not being happy with the tremolo arm in this guitar... What do you think!?

Also, on the crazy side question.....is it crazy to think about adding a GK pickup to the Godin LGXT and be able to switch between one or the other?

Thanks

Tonato
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Jax Katz on February 17, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
well i'm feeling better about my choices so far. i bought a Roland GTM GC-10 Guitar controller, a Roland GR33, and a Roland GR30. it is a dedicated 13 pin controller. it was made in japan and only sold there, so i can not get any info on it. i think it is a 1990 model. i also have a gk3, temp mounted, on a ibanez sca220 with 2 V5 humbuckers . i got the controller because it was made to interface with Roland GR synths. it is the guitar used in one of the Roland synth demo vids. a pic is below. has anyone seen one of these ? your opinion ? my only complaint is balance. i put a little weight on the bridge end of my guitar strap to balance it out. it tracks pretty good and when it doesn't it is usually my fault. it has a spring mounted (upside down) gk2a pup but does not have the screw to set the pole heights or the cable lead. it really doesn't need it and the pup can be set exactly how you want it. the whole rig (even with the extra weight) is small and light.  finally, i still like the idea of a three voice guitar and so am looking at a used Brian Moore i2.13, or a new Godin XTSA ( both use RMC ). any thoughts on this ? BTW i should have said that i'm new to all of this synth, midi stuff and also new here.  thanks in advance for any advice and the help i've already received.
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1020.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf324%2Fjax281%2Fgc10-9.jpg&hash=0f19138b407c467269c7e35b60a22daa29d7b545)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: kenact on February 21, 2015, 05:26:19 AM
Quote from: Jax Katz on February 17, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
i still like the idea of a three voice guitar and so am looking at a used Brian Moore i2.13, or a new Godin XTSA ( both use RMC ). any thoughts on this ?

IMHO, Godin has the best bang-for-the-buck. I recently worked on a Brian Moore, and discovered that you need to have both a 13 pin & 1/4" cable to get all 3 voices. The "acoustic" signal is not included in the 13 pin cable, at least on the model I was working on.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gravelaxe on March 15, 2015, 08:12:50 PM
 Maybe "The Swiss Army Knife Multitool" approach is what I need ! what is the  best of possible pickup combinations  :-\ as it seems impractical or impossible to mount both a GK3 and an FTP on the same guitar ... or izzit ?(if I just have to have both ! )  am I right in saying the way to go would be an  under the bridge piezo system , the RMC seems the best option or perhaps just have one guitar for each system ?
BTW:  big shout out to the mods and members here on V guitar great depth of knowledge guys , and always  so ready to help ;)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on March 15, 2015, 08:16:41 PM
QuoteMaybe "The Swiss Army Knife Multitool" approach is what I need ! what is the  best of possible pickup combinations  :-\ as it seems impractical or impossible to mount both a GK3 and an FTP on the same guitar ... or izzit ?(if I just have to have both ! )  am I right in saying the way to go would be an  under the bridge piezo system , the RMC seems the best option or perhaps just have one guitar for each system ?

Review the  FTP guitar thread - for examples of what others did when installing FTP on their guitar
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8394.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8394.0)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp208%2Felantric%2F20130314_084819_zps208d81b0.jpg&hash=d9c0cf075f5aba45852c0adfc90243aa8a3d794c)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp208%2Felantric%2FFTP-Guitar-Tests_20130417_100855_zpscd0be3b7.jpg&hash=905f2ca4524307ef376d8ec39e43ae80bddad856)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/563459/2013-05-23%2007.56.41.jpg)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gravelaxe on March 15, 2015, 08:38:37 PM
ermagherd! :o thats filfy ! 'sgustin! *drool*  phwoar! *letch* .... 'ere , got any more like that ? *holds screen at different angles * how the hell ? ... never seen durtynerdygeekyguitarporn like that before ... hoy ! here comes the missus hide it ! hide it !
Cheers Elantric  ;D
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 19, 2015, 07:08:30 AM
I have a PRS that I've been trying to sell and it being a buyers market I'm getting very low offers. I'm now thinking of modifying it. I have a Brian Moore with the RMC system in it and I have a Roland Ready Strat. Although I can notice the latency difference between the two guitars it doesn't make much difference given how I'm using my GR55. I'm basically helping out my keyboard player when he needs a third hand. Mostly softer synth patches like organ, strings or horns. When it comes to acoustic guitar sounds I much prefer the piezos in the Brian Moore to using the COSM in the GR. I especially like being able to mix the piezo and COSM acoustic together when using the Brian Moore, for instance piezo six string and COSM 12 string. Very dimensional and satisfying. The thing is I use that on just a few songs. I'm using synth sounds considerably more. The GK3 would not involve any permanent changes to the guitar and of course the Graphtech Ghost system is much more expensive and the modifications are permanent. I probably answered my own question but interested in anyone's opinion just the same. I'm got the GR55 going through an Axe Fx and a Matrix NL12 speaker cab if that completes the picture.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 19, 2015, 07:22:25 AM
Read what others think

GK-3 or Piezo
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.0)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6273.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6273.0)

Despite rumors, There is no difference in latency

But there is big difference in tone when using COSM Model guitar processors

GK-3 sound is smoother

Ghost hex pickups suffer higher than typical adjacent string crosstalk , which creates poor DSP Alt tuning anomalies

With proper installation, and if you are performing mostly electric guitar tones the HEX PU preference order is

1 Roland GK-3
2 Yamaha G1D
3 Roland GK2A
4 RMC PIEZO
5 GHOST PIEZO
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 19, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Thanks for the links. I have read this before. I should say after re reading them I'm not using the GR55 for any mag pup sounds except for an electric 12 patch on one song. It's either pcm synth sounds and acoustic cosm patches. I also meant to say I prefer the piezo for my acoustic tones as opposed to the strat cosm acoustic. I do have separate patches for each guitar to optimize the settings. I guess I'm just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 19, 2015, 08:09:16 AM
I agree for Acoustic tones Piezos sound best, RMC Piezos have lowest crosstalk
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: dsmmrm on August 19, 2015, 08:30:05 AM
I have a godin XTSA with the RMC piezos and I use it in combination with the cosm acoustics just as you describe. It definitely seems to have more depth and character than either alone. For electric I just go direct to a marshall dsl using a separate cable. The big surprise for me was just how good the xtsa magnetic pickups are. i had already bought a dimarzio PAF Pro for the bridge in anticipation of having to swap it out but it still sits in its box.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Rhcole on August 19, 2015, 02:42:40 PM
I have owned both. I have had positive experiences with both pickups, and had negligible if any differences in tracking or performance issues. However, the Ghost system, depending on the guitar, can produce a boomy subsonic frequency that interferes with some products. The GK-3 is not as bright sounding as the Ghost and sounds better on electrics than acoustics.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 19, 2015, 03:36:21 PM
I should also say there is another reason for my question. I'm having a problem with the RMC saddles on the Brian Moore. Lately I'm breaking strings every night I gig. It is on the saddle. I have filed them down many times and even had my guitar tech do it. He won't touch them anymore for fear of ruining the piezo. I bought a set of graphtech saddles and my tech felt strongly that there was a high probability that it would not work with all the delicate soldering and considering the labor costs he felt I would have better results if I had the whole graphtech system put in so that idea is on hold. By the way, what the guy at Brian Moore wants for the RMC saddles is prohibitive and would I be looking at the same issue a few years down the road. I was hoping to sell the PRS, which I don't play anymore, to fund the Graphtech system and installation and perhaps pick up a Godin Freeway. I'm not really fond of my particular Roland Strat as a guitar so I would then sell it. I've lowered the price on the PRS to the point of maybe keeping it and putting in a GK3 but I like the piezos. Round and round I go. Does anyone know of a source for the RMC saddles other than Brian Moore?
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on August 19, 2015, 04:09:08 PM
QuoteDoes anyone know of a source for the RMC saddles other than Brian Moore?



http://www.midi-classics.com/brands/RMC-Pickup-Co..html (http://www.midi-classics.com/brands/RMC-Pickup-Co..html)

http://www.midi-classics.com/PBGS14-6-14047/ (http://www.midi-classics.com/PBGS14-6-14047/)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-7ii38z8%2Fproducts%2F15209%2Fimages%2F7600%2Ft14047__36200.1408600137.1280.1280.jpg%3Fc%3D2&hash=6e186380662b1cae0fedfbcd948b5caf7f9d9ef8)


QuoteI was hoping to sell the PRS, which I don't play anymore, to fund the Graphtech system and installation and perhaps pick up a Godin Freeway.

I suggest try before you buy. and read the threads here by owners of Godin Freeway SA

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1791.msg27706#msg27706 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1791.msg27706#msg27706)

QuoteI have one and don't use it anymore.
Impossible to play GR300 sounds, and many ghost notes with PCM sounds.

Besides, the graphtech piezo is only used by the GK system. You can not have acoustic piezo sound with the regular jack output.

The only good things about the freeway are that it is a comfortable instrument and that acoustic COSM sounds are better than with the GK3.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 19, 2015, 08:33:21 PM
Thank you for the links. I will contact them and let you know it there is a happy ending.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: stratrat on August 20, 2015, 01:03:10 AM
I like using piezos because they look far better and I also do a lot of stuff where I'm using the "natural" piezo sound with a Fishman Aura and blending it with the modelled and synth stuff. Of all the piezos I've tried (Fishman, RMC, Baggs, Ghost), the ghost is by far the most natural sounding piezo output (especially on nylon), but the trade-off is that with hex stuff, there is more crosstalk. Also the Ghost system filters out the lower subsonic stuff as a matter of course, which is an annoyance for me as I usually drum on the bridge, strings and neck and I can't fake a kick drum as well without the extreme lows. The thing is, the Ghost saddles pick up more body resonance, because the saddles are embedded deeper into the saddle, further from the string, but closer to the body. This makes them more natural sounding and virtually obviates the "zing" that most piezos suffer from.

I have three guitars with the Ghost system and as far as crosstalk goes, they vary, depending on the bridge style. My Carvin NS-1 (which is a nylon string) has a lot of crosstalk (pity, as it's my main guitar these days). On the other hand, my through-neck which has a Wilkinson/Fishman hardtail retrofitted with Ghost saddles has virtually none. My Strat has a vintage style synchronised trem with Wilkinson style saddles and that has a bit more crosstalk than the hardtail, but far less than the nylon.

At the end of the day, if you want the Roland units to track for MIDI, The GK's are the best option and also give more realistic electric guitar models. But I've found I can get much better acoustic tones directly from the piezos (I usually use the modelling in my GR-55 for bass tones) or a combination of the piezos and a modelled sound.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 20, 2015, 05:15:19 PM
Elantric, just an FYI on those links. Although they seem to carry the RMC saddles the descriptions leave a little to be desired. There's no way to contact them. Perhaps if I create an account which I did not. I did actually contact RMC directly, duh, and we're trading emails back and forth now. I thought I would attach the link here. Please add this resource wherever it is appropriate if you don't have it.

http://rmcpickup.com/products.html (http://rmcpickup.com/products.html)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on August 20, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
Elantric's Tips and Blog
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6125.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6125.0)


RMC Pickups
http://www.rmcpickup.com/ (http://www.rmcpickup.com/)
info@rmcmusic.com

or write us at

RMC Pickup Co.
1739 Addison #15
Berkeley CA 94703
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gibvictory on August 24, 2015, 02:45:27 PM
Looks like I'll scare up the cash for a new set of RMC saddles. It's not a whole lot less than the entire Ghost system but I really don't wanna mess with what I'm already happy with. The opinions and observations from you all also helped to inform my decision. Thank you.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Autana on November 05, 2015, 02:15:07 PM
Hi,

After to me illuminating images of Elantric and at light of well know tracking problems with Godin and RMC piezo old Polytone-X (mine is 2008 but read 2003(C) on the green PCB) particularly the odious subsonic frequencies pest, I'm  almost decided to mount on my xtSA an extra GK-3 comes bundled with my GR-55GK in order to ride out the disgusting sound mess on COSM lovely tones like Metheny GR300 patch and others in both of my GR-55 and GP-10.
I wonder if it's really worth, btw on my guitar eye looking issues don't sting me, especially after bumping with freakiest thingummiest like a 'toilet lid body' guitar   *~*
Obviously there is the workaround of mod/ad dons solutions like RMC OPT-01, but I don't have idea of actual availability for buy and if my budget allows outlay. Suggestions welcome.

Also grab my attention the PRIMOVA CodeSmart GKFX-21...
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15681.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15681.0)
it could work well for my Gr-55/GP-10/xtSA team?  other options?

BEST!







Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: TINLEY on March 17, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from:  Elantric on December 23, 2011, 08:32:23 PM

There are exceptions.
Case in point - Steve Steven's seems to do OK using a stock Godin with RMC Piezo pickups feeding a stock GR-55 feeding a pair of Roland JC-120 amps here.
GR-55 Guitar Synthesizer Steve Stevens Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkpnGFsD8Sc#ws)

His guitar might be tracking okay but his VOICE is really wobbly and there are so many visual edits in the interview which don't seem to affect the voice over that I can't help thinking the whole thing has been dubbed. Any tracking anomalies will have been edited out ;/)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: TINLEY on March 17, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
Okay so I am reading use a GK3 with the Roland here

I guess the next question is how well the Racks Vax people implemented the EQ to go back the other way?

In the long run it would be more cost effective for me to buy this to drive my Variax

http://www.rackvax.com/store/#!/GK-13-pin-to-Variax-Adapter-Module/p/3958715/category=1173774 (http://www.rackvax.com/store/#!/GK-13-pin-to-Variax-Adapter-Module/p/3958715/category=1173774)

Than to piezo equip guitars and buy more filters and preamps

The only caveat for me is that I was planning on building an 8 string bass/guitar hybrid instrument and piezos would be the easiest way to create a SEPT or OCT pickup

But maybe I could equip a guitar with the Roland bass and guitar pickups

And actually having played with the BASS emulation in the VG99 it is close enough to where I need to get to

I just need to think a bit more about how to do it with only 6 strings!




Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on March 17, 2016, 04:43:25 PM
Id look at the Antares ATG-1 too

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.0)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autotuneforguitar.com%2Fuserfiles%2Fimages%2Fipad_bg1.png&hash=b87bc660b27cf235c1e35094210502a3107e9343)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autotuneforguitar.com%2Fuserfiles%2Fimages%2Fflrpedal.png&hash=b6fb91ba23091c9c689f61ee8781f99ad799c486)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on March 28, 2016, 07:16:29 AM
Also if you play heavy metal and chocking palm muting rhythm techniques - just the physics of how piezos sense the string pitch directly at the bridge - and no where else - means piezos flat do not work in that situation without major change to your playing technique. Read the Variax boards for more descriptions of these complaints with piezo bridge systems when used for old school rock guitar palm muting playing techniques.
Add the similar Variax Piezo Bridge Low E "plink" issue[ (Battle)/b]
http://line6.com/support/topic/6764-do-you-have-the-same-problem-with-6th-string/page-17 (http://line6.com/support/topic/6764-do-you-have-the-same-problem-with-6th-string/page-17)

http://youtu.be/NDGgW_QfHZ0 (http://youtu.be/NDGgW_QfHZ0)


http://line6.com/support/topic/19412-palm-muting-pinging-noise/#entry145836 (http://line6.com/support/topic/19412-palm-muting-pinging-noise/#entry145836)
QuoteDoes anyone else get that pinging/ clinky noise when palm muting or picking in general with higher gain tones ? I remember seeing some stuff in the forums quite some time back. I really notice it these days, I just updated my JTV59 to 2.21 and its still there. Anyone else experiencing it or have some work arounds for it ?

Problem never ended, discussion never ended...

Take 3 or 4 days of from work...you'll need at least that long to read through this mess. Happy plinking!

http://line6.com/support/topic/6764-do-you-have-the-same-problem-with-6th-string/ (http://line6.com/support/topic/6764-do-you-have-the-same-problem-with-6th-string/)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: TINLEY on March 30, 2016, 09:32:19 AM
I already have a VARIAX and I play PUNK and SLIDE

If I ever play heavy metal and worry about my muted tone I will buy a real guitar that is a really stupid shape and stand in front of a very big amplifier that will make my trousers flap

pants if you are American

though it may of course make my pants flap too

shorts if you are American  ::)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: mariogag on March 30, 2016, 07:11:01 PM
Quote from:  guitardog on December 23, 2011, 08:02:19 PM
Can the RMC board still be bought for the VG-99? :o also I read a post where they said on a [Godin] Freeway SA guitar (with Ghost Piezo) you had to jumper a wire or reground something I don't remember to make the freeway work right because the freeway didn't have all acoustic part of the hex pickup installed?

This is correct. The info on where to put the jumper was given to me by a tech at graphtech.
Without the jumper when using high gain patches you will ear the cosm path even when you select to only use the real PU. I had discovered this with my VG8ex which doesn't take the regular Pu's signal.

But it certainly doesn't solve all the other surface, palm noise problems.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: engmstph on May 15, 2016, 02:13:15 PM
Hi all

i have recently bought a BOSS GP-10 to use it mainly as guitar modeler. The included GK-3 pickup is doing a decent job but has some bugs and sound artifacts with certain models (12 string specially)

I have a Gibson Les Paul, I was wondering if the Piezo Hex will be a better solution for me instead of the GK-3 as it uses a deferente signal generation mechanism.

And what are the pros and cons of Piezo Hexpander (Graphtech) if someone has used it before.


Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on May 15, 2016, 02:35:36 PM
Read above
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Elantric on October 26, 2017, 03:27:00 PM
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22027.msg159143#msg159143

carlb wrote>

Carvin SH-575 rewired for GK-KIT-GT3

My 13-pin pickup journey continues!

First I had the Ghost system built stock into the Carvin (now Kiesel) SH-575. But the piezo elements on that aren't shielded, resulting in buzzing for many patches, and really bad buzzing if you rest your palm on the bridge.

So, had that modded to RMC electronics and Hex saddle pickup. Much better, and still a "stealth hex pickup," which was nice. But ... a few years down the road, and corrosion in the saddles (or some-such) is causing the grounding/shielding to become open-circuit.

Put a GK3 + control wart on, and wow. Nicer tones, better alt tuning (fewer warblies), and no hums or buzzes on the difficult patches. But, looks bolted-on, which of course it is.

So, ordered in a GK-KIT-GT3, and had a local luthier put it in. The SH-575 has plenty of room for electronics, so the only wood routing was for the pickup cable feed-through. Very inexpensive for the job, and looks nice.

Gig tonight, but I'll wait: never change things out before a gig! Pickup is reverse mounted, so I'd need to change a global setting or settings on every patch to accomodate the reverse mounted hex pickup.

Luthier did a great job, nicely spaced, and with a bit of tubing on each mounting screw to bring the height up to 1mm spacing from strings to hex poles.

I'll post again sometime this weekend when I get a chance to really try the new setup out.

Next, get the other Carvin, an SH-475, rewired with a GK-KIT-GT3.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Rodrigo Schwarz on March 12, 2018, 10:24:16 AM
Quote from:  Elantric on December 23, 2011, 08:19:39 PM


Fast Forward to December 2012, I buy a Godin xTSA with RMC Piezos pickups and pop the rear cover to discover updated new RMC PolyDrive- X electronics with a new 2011 PCB board. Using this new Godin guitar with my old VG-8 and the old Heavy Metal patches (which delivered Ice pick in the ears with 1998 era RMC electronics), now delivers much smoother tone, closer to the GK-2A type sound. Richard at RMC is a skilled engineer, and listens to his customers, and is continually making improvements and changes in the PolyDrive preamp circuit. The 2012 era RMC preamp circuit design (to my ears) is  much improved and different than the old 1998 RMC designs. 



According to Elantric reports, I understand that a Godin with 2011 onwards RMC PCB board  improved the high frequency "ice pick in the ear" tone - although it still lost to a GK pickup.

But what about chocking palm muting rhythm techniques? Has it been considerably improved on the latest RMC PCB boards?

Someone here use a newer Godin XTSA or LGX-SA with COSM Modeling Guitar and AMP tones to playing metal?

I ask this because I am interested in buying a Godin XTSA or LGX-SA and I play in a rock and metal band.

I'm happy with the performance of my GK-2A equipped ESP Eclipse, but I have a love-hate relationship with the look of the GK-2A in the guitar.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on March 12, 2018, 10:30:16 AM
Quote from: Rodrigo Schwarz on March 12, 2018, 10:24:16 AM


But what about chocking palm muting rhythm techniques? Has it been considerably improved on the latest RMC PCB boards?]

Electronics alone  can not fix the piezo pickup palm muting problems -  the issue is the due to the physical location of the Piezo PU ( including Variax)  - Palm Muting with any piezo pickup just does not work well - it only yields compromised sonic results vs what can be accomplished with Palm muting with traditional magnetic pickups   
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: Rodrigo Schwarz on March 12, 2018, 10:41:36 AM
Thank you, admsustainiac.

Palm muting is an important part of my technique, so I'll stop my daily habit of looking for Godins on used equipment sites.  ;D
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 11:17:21 AM
Time has passed and technology has changed, so I wanted to get the advice of those with experience on what works/doesn't work today so I can decide how to equip my guitars.

I just bought a GP-10 and have the included external GK-3 pickup.
I will mostly be using the GP-10 (at least for now) as a guitar modeler, mostly for acoustics, and likely not for synths or any of the COSM effects.
Otherwise, I will mostly be using my normal magnetic pickups, unless there is a rare tuning change needed.
The GP-10 will feed my Kemper, where I can use IR's in the cab to fine tune the tones of the acoustics.

I have 3 main guitars I will use with this:
A Gibson Collectors Choice #10
An Epi 58 Goldtop
And a PRS, which has a Graph Tech LB63 piezo equipped Floyd Rose and Acoustiphonic preamp already installed.

I'm leaning towards the Internal GK-3 kits for each guitar since they are very affordable (and I don't want to have the external wart on any of my guitars).

The fly in the ointment is the PRS.
Should I just go ahead and get the Basic Ghost Hexpander kit for roughly $160 and be done with it? 
Technically, this is still the more expensive option since the Internal GK kit is around $110 give or take.
The other downside is that whenever I want to use that guitar (or the others), I'll need to change the GP-10's GK pickup type for ALL the presets I have, or create a whole other set of presets just to have the different pickup.
Or, is there a global setting for this in the GP-10 that would make that less painful?

If I go with the internal GK kit, I'm assuming I should probably just remove the LB63/Acoustiphonic and put the original Floyd Rose that came with the PRS SE back on?
I'm thinking yes since the cavity is pretty tight already since I also have a Sustainiac installed in there, and removing the Acoustiphonic would free up space for the Internal GK board.

Questions are in bold, so if you could make sure you answer those direct questions along with any additional advice you can offer, that would be appreciated!!!


Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 14, 2021, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 11:17:21 AM
Time has passed and technology has changed, so I wanted to get the advice of those with experience on what works/doesn't work today so I can decide how to equip my guitars.

I just bought a GP-10 and have the included external GK-3 pickup.
I will mostly be using the GP-10 (at least for now) as a guitar modeler, mostly for acoustics, and likely not for synths or any of the COSM effects.
Otherwise, I will mostly be using my normal magnetic pickups, unless there is a rare tuning change needed.
The GP-10 will feed my Kemper, where I can use IR's in the cab to fine tune the tones of the acoustics.

I have 3 main guitars I will use with this:
A Gibson Collectors Choice #10
An Epi 58 Goldtop
And a PRS, which has a Graph Tech LB63 piezo equipped Floyd Rose and Acoustiphonic preamp already installed.

I'm leaning towards the Internal GK-3 kits for each guitar since they are very affordable (and I don't want to have the external wart on any of my guitars).

The fly in the ointment is the PRS.
Should I just go ahead and get the Basic Ghost Hexpander kit for roughly $160 and be done with it? 
Technically, this is still the more expensive option since the Internal GK kit is around $110 give or take.
The other downside is that whenever I want to use that guitar (or the others), I'll need to change the GP-10's GK pickup type for ALL the presets I have, or create a whole other set of presets just to have the different pickup.
Or, is there a global setting for this in the GP-10 that would make that less painful?

If I go with the internal GK kit, I'm assuming I should probably just remove the LB63/Acoustiphonic and put the original Floyd Rose that came with the PRS SE back on?
I'm thinking yes since the cavity is pretty tight already since I also have a Sustainiac installed in there, and removing the Acoustiphonic would free up space for the Internal GK board.

Questions are in bold, so if you could make sure you answer those direct questions along with any additional advice you can offer, that would be appreciated!!!

Nothing has changed

The overhyped Ghost Hexpander is very noisy -forcing use of the GP-10  COSM NOISE SUPPRESSOR -which chokes and stutters any sustaining notes

The GK-3 yields superior results when properly installed

But the GP-10 with GK-3 includes the worst possible poor quality GK-13 cable -order a replacement from Primovasound asap
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: GuitarBuilder on April 14, 2021, 11:46:25 AM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 11:17:21 AM
Time has passed and technology has changed, so I wanted to get the advice of those with experience on what works/doesn't work today so I can decide how to equip my guitars.

I just bought a GP-10 and have the included external GK-3 pickup.
I will mostly be using the GP-10 (at least for now) as a guitar modeler, mostly for acoustics, and likely not for synths or any of the COSM effects.
Otherwise, I will mostly be using my normal magnetic pickups, unless there is a rare tuning change needed.
The GP-10 will feed my Kemper, where I can use IR's in the cab to fine tune the tones of the acoustics.

I have 3 main guitars I will use with this:
A Gibson Collectors Choice #10
An Epi 58 Goldtop
And a PRS, which has a Graph Tech LB63 piezo equipped Floyd Rose and Acoustiphonic preamp already installed.

I'm leaning towards the Internal GK-3 kits for each guitar since they are very affordable (and I don't want to have the external wart on any of my guitars).

The fly in the ointment is the PRS.
Should I just go ahead and get the Basic Ghost Hexpander kit for roughly $160 and be done with it? 
Technically, this is still the more expensive option since the Internal GK kit is around $110 give or take.
The other downside is that whenever I want to use that guitar (or the others), I'll need to change the GP-10's GK pickup type for ALL the presets I have, or create a whole other set of presets just to have the different pickup.
Or, is there a global setting for this in the GP-10 that would make that less painful?

If I go with the internal GK kit, I'm assuming I should probably just remove the LB63/Acoustiphonic and put the original Floyd Rose that came with the PRS SE back on?
I'm thinking yes since the cavity is pretty tight already since I also have a Sustainiac installed in there, and removing the Acoustiphonic would free up space for the Internal GK board.

Questions are in bold, so if you could make sure you answer those direct questions along with any additional advice you can offer, that would be appreciated!!!

You won't be happy with the Graphtech/GP-10 combination.  Do not get the Hexpander.  If you thought the Hexpander would fit, then the GK internal board will fit as well.  The larger issue is whether there is room on the PRS for a GK pickup; they tend to be notoriously tight in the bridge area.

Regarding GP-10 settings, the critical one is the bridge-pickup distance (offset).  There is no compromise (global) setting for a bridge piezo vs GK.

If there's room for the GK internal board, I'd just leave the Graphtech electronics in place.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on April 14, 2021, 11:46:25 AM
The larger issue is whether there is room on the PRS for a GK pickup; they tend to be notoriously tight in the bridge area.

You got that right!  I just tried to slide the external GK-3 pickup in there and it won't fit!
The only thing I see out there currently is this one, but $40?????

https://www.johnmannsguitarvault.com/shop/Parts/Guitar-Parts/Pickup-Rings/p/MannMade-USA-PRS-GK3-Pickup-Ring-Adapter---Black-x46575051.htm

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: GuitarBuilder on April 14, 2021, 12:26:50 PM
Even that one may not fit - make sure you measure carefully!  The $40 is reasonable given that it's 3D printed.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 14, 2021, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 12:13:58 PM
You got that right!  I just tried to slide the external GK-3 pickup in there and it won't fit!
The only thing I see out there currently is this one, but $40?????

https://www.johnmannsguitarvault.com/shop/Parts/Guitar-Parts/Pickup-Rings/p/MannMade-USA-PRS-GK3-Pickup-Ring-Adapter---Black-x46575051.htm

The trick is remove the original bridge PU ring screws-then try to slide the Original bridge PU towards the Neck

Many guitars have a large bridge PU body route and the Bridge PU can be relocated further away from bridge without wood routing
Like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPxGLLNw/20130314-084819-zps208d81b0.jpg)

Other creative methods to obtain clearance for GK PU.

Be advised most today prefer mounting GK PU reversed ( seen below) as it's less intrusive for playing Dick Dale style on low E.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76hp5dpP/IMAG0011.jpg)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 02:50:44 PM
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on April 14, 2021, 12:26:50 PM
Even that one may not fit - make sure you measure carefully!  The $40 is reasonable given that it's 3D printed.

My son has a 3-D printer in his bedroom, so I guess I could try to print one out myself if I can find the file for it.

PS: Are you the same GuitarBuilder that sometimes posts on the Rockman GearUp Forum?
Just curios given the same "handle".
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: GuitarBuilder on April 14, 2021, 02:54:08 PM
Yes I am!
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: philjynx on April 14, 2021, 03:00:35 PM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 02:50:44 PM
My son has a 3-D printer in his bedroom, so I guess I could try to print one out myself if I can find the file for it...


3D printers give off toxic fumes.


Move the printer.

Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: chrish on April 14, 2021, 03:28:37 PM
The Wilcox hex fx is worth a look if you are looking for Acoustic tone and 13 pin out from their Optical pickup.

I did a side by side comparison with the SY1000 acoustic model and no way could I ever go back to using a model.(I'm into the synth stuff and bass octave alt tuning that mixed with normal guitar).

It also produces a very nice jazz box tone  by picking near the neck joint.

There is also a video of Jamie Glaser getting a pretty good electric tone out of it and I believe he's using just the quarter inch out.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 03:40:36 PM
Quote from: philjynx on April 14, 2021, 03:00:35 PM

3D printers give off toxic fumes.


Move the printer.

Thanks for the heads up....
I talked with him about it and apparently he's using PLA filament, which is supposed to be non toxic.
The ABS stuff, on the other hand, not good.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: philjynx on April 14, 2021, 04:08:06 PM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 14, 2021, 03:40:36 PM
Thanks for the heads up....
I talked with him about it and apparently he's using PLA filament, which is supposed to be non toxic.
The ABS stuff, on the other hand, not good.


PLA is edible. True. Non toxic? Not clearly determined.


I was under the impression that the filament run through a printer ended up on the print bed.


This is not entirely true.


SOME of it becomes airborne particles.


This i did not know.


I only became aware of this AFTER developing respiratory problems initially (wrongly) diagnosed as asthma.


My printers are now OctoPrint driven WiFi network printers in a separate building (shed).


Sorry to derail the thread but I'd be selfish if i didn't share my concern.


I've had nearly two years of ill health which I ascribe to my lack of information about the hazards of hot plastic.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 06:02:26 AM
Thanks guys, I (pre)ordered 3 Internal GK Kits from Andertons last night.... came out to $330.

So now I just have to figure out how to get them all mounted.
I'm guessing the Gibson and Epi Les Paul's can probably just use the bracket that came with the GK-3 External kit?
I only have one of those so I'll have to try to find another one.
Either that or I imagine there is a modified pickup ring out there that I can use.

The PRS will probably take some thought since it is definitely tight.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.... I'm sure I'll figure something out.

So now I'm just waiting for Stetsbar to get their inventory replenished so I can add them to the Les Paul's.
Either that or I'll go with the Floyd Rose FRX..... not sure which is better but it seems like the Stetsbar is a solid design.

 
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 15, 2021, 08:16:57 AM
Quote
So now I'm just waiting for Stetsbar to get their inventory replenished so I can add them to the Les Paul's.
Either that or I'll go with the Floyd Rose FRX..... not sure which is better but it seems like the Stetsbar is a solid desig

FWIW -Ive tried all those,  and happiest with the Deusenberg/Rockinger Les Trem II.

Aka Göldo TLT1N Les Trem, G-Style Tremolo

Easiest to revert to stock too

Les Trem II Works best on a sloppy pivoting Epi Bridge

Problem with Stetsbar was it never returned to zero and the Trem Bar  action was a bit too loose, impossible for subtle tremolos

Also it does not fit many guitars (will not work on SG, end up with very high action even when Stetsbar bridge  is set on lowest setting.
Works better on Les Paul with tall Bridge area

The Floyd FRX  is a bit fierce and tough to install, but probably better than than the stetsbar 
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 08:28:25 AM
Quote from: admin on April 15, 2021, 08:16:57 AM
FWIW -Ive tried all those,  and happiest with the Deusenberg/Rockinger Les Trem II.

Aka Göldo TLT1N Les Trem, G-Style Tremolo

Easiest to revert to stock too

Work best on a sloppy pivoting Epi Bridge

Problem with Stetsbar was it never returned to zero and the Trem Bar  action was a bit too loose, impossible for subtle tremolos

The Floyd FRX  is a bit fierce and tough to install, but probably better than than the stetsbar

Thanks for the input.  I know Eric at Stetsbar said he's making them in the US again with some design changes.  I've heard earlier versions had some issues but that most of that was worked out over the years.  How long ago did you try the Stetsbar?
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 15, 2021, 08:29:02 AM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 08:28:25 AM
Thanks for the input.  I know Eric at Stetsbar said he's making them in the US again with some design changes.  I've heard earlier versions had some issues but that most of that was worked out over the years.  How long ago did you try the Stetsbar?

8 years ago

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10208.msg82180#msg82180

QuoteI'm on the fence with the stetsbar.

* It impacts the tone and sustain in a negative manner.

* Its almost "too fiddly" with a too easy to use  / zero feedback torque whammy arm.

It typically makes the bridge sit too tall off the front of the guitar, and requires much work to get the action set correctly.

I Think I will remove it, and use a Les Trem instead. I have a Les Trem on a ES335 copy and it works very well.

Although the  Les Trem's seem to have gone up in price in the past 7 years ( I paid $85 for mine back 2008)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ABM-5600-C-Les-Tremolo-For-Gibson-Tailpiece-CHROME-/390363791622


Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 09:12:40 AM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Deusenberg/Rockinger Les Trem II can do much of a divebomb...... maybe a step and a half is all.
I don't do a lot of divebombs, but there are a few places where I need to be able to do that.
Not a fan of having to use an allen wrench to take the bar off either, though the Stetsbar probably requires that too.

The Floyd Rose FRX is a no-go on my Collectors Choice #10 because the neck pitch is 14 degrees, and they say anything less than 17 degrees requires modification to the guitar.
Also wouldn't want to put 2 screws in the headstock to hold the locking nut, though I guess I could forgo that.
Could be an option for the Epi though.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 15, 2021, 09:27:06 AM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 09:12:40 AM
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Deusenberg/Rockinger Les Trem II can do much of a divebomb...... maybe a step and a half is all.
I don't do a lot of divebombs, but there are a few places where I need to be able to do that.
Not a fan of having to use an allen wrench to take the bar off either, though the Stetsbar probably requires that too.

The Floyd Rose FRX is a no-go on my Collectors Choice #10 because the neck pitch is 14 degrees, and they say anything less than 17 degrees requires modification to the guitar.
Also wouldn't want to put 2 screws in the headstock to hold the locking nut, though I guess I could forgo that.
Could be an option for the Epi though.

Left field and unobtainable-the 2020 Fender Jazzmaster American Professional II has a new design Panorama bridge which gets close to divebomb

https://shop.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/jazzmaster/american-professional-ii-jazzmaster/0113970700.html

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRHjVk3G/Panorama-Bridge2.jpg)

But probably too severe to install on a gibson
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 09:41:56 AM
FWIW, here's a video on changes made to the Stetsbar back in 2016 (so, after the model you tried).
Looks like he may have addressed some of the issues you mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG5SVVrQqcs

Also, here's a demo video of some pretty intense dive bombing and such, and it seems to stay in tune VERY well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEM3qvO_QU0

And like I said, Eric said he's made some more improvements on the latest design, which should be out in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 15, 2021, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 09:41:56 AM
FWIW, here's a video on changes made to the Stetsbar back in 2016 (so, after the model you tried).
Looks like he may have addressed some of the issues you mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG5SVVrQqcs

Also, here's a demo video of some pretty intense dive bombing and such, and it seems to stay in tune VERY well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEM3qvO_QU0

And like I said, Eric said he's made some more improvements on the latest design, which should be out in a few weeks.
Ask if he accepts trade ins of 2010 generation ? :
;)
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: admin on April 15, 2021, 09:49:28 AM
Ask if he accepts trade ins of 2010 generation ? :
;)

Just sell it and use the money to buy the newer model!  ;)

It's possible that some of the issues you had might have been addressed with some minor changes to the unit.
IE- The bearings could have had something to do with the height issues (he notes that the new ones are half the diameter).
He might provide the newer bearings to address that.

Seriously though, I would just call him or shoot him an email and describe the issues you had with it and see if any of them can be rectified on the model you have.
It's his design and I got the impression that it's a labor of love.
Most people like that take pride in their work and are willing to help out if you approach them, not as complaining about it, but trying to figure out how to make it work for your needs.
Worth a shot!!

email: info@stetsbar.com
telephone: 1-716-675-0009
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 15, 2021, 10:48:00 AM
BTW, make sure you tell him who you are on the forum.... obviously not in an arrogant way, but just let him know that you are an admin on a very large forum and that's how you heard about his new design.... nice way to lead in to it!

Your position here, arguably as an influencer, carries a lot of weight in the community.
Good (or bad) "press" from someone like you can help or hurt his sales.
I don't think it's inappropriate to see if he can help you out, especially if it really doesn't cost him much, to "make things right" and gives you a warm/fuzzy about his business/product.
I think that could be a win-win!
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: rockmancentralbob on April 16, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
I've decided to cancel my order for the 3 Internal GK kits from Andertons for now.
Instead, I'm going to try to put a Roland GK Mount V2 on each of my guitars and see how much of a PITA it is to just move the External GK from guitar to guitar.

http://www.ntx9design.com/roland-gk-mount.html

If it works, it'll save me almost $300.
I figure I won't be going from guitar to guitar much anyway, so maybe it won't be a big deal.
It'll also give me enough time to figure out how much I like/use the GP-10.
I can always add the internal kits later should I decide.

BTW, I tried to get a quote from Primova sound for a GK cable, but I guess he must be busy because I haven't gotten a response yet.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: admin on April 16, 2021, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: rockmancentralbob on April 16, 2021, 12:25:29 PM

BTW, I tried to get a quote from Primova sound for a GK cable, but I guess he must be busy because I haven't gotten a response yet.

PM Codesmart
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=6365
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: shannonrichards on December 07, 2023, 04:07:23 AM
Quote from: fredo on March 24, 2008, 12:36:34 PMHi all,

Those of you who own both a GK-2/3 and an Piezo (RMC or Graphtech) equipped guitar, how would you compare them ?

I now have both a Godin LGXT (with RMC) and an Hagstrom Ultra Swede with a GK-Kit (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=572.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=572.0) ). I made some A/B compare this afternoon, and to me, there is no room for debate : the GK-Kit does the job way better...
Acoustics are more realistic (which is strange since piezo usually give a more acoustic sound, but I guess it is all about how it is used by the VG to re-model the sound); distorted sounds seem sharper and brighter, with no palm muting issues; and GR 300 sounds become usable !...
And just in case you wonder, yes I have 1.04 firmware installed and used Piezo-R setting for the Godin ;-)

I am about to GK-Ready my Parker Nitefly M, and was wondering whether to install a GK-Kit or a Graphtech Ghost System... OK GK-Kit is uglier, it also is much cheaper (119 euros here in Europe, compared to 260 euros for the Graphtech Hexpander without saddles and acoustic preamp).

What do you guys think ?!

Fredo.

Correct me if I am wrong but magnetic ones are supposed to have better accuracy. I am not sure if they work in the same way as mics does.
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: gumtown on December 07, 2023, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: shannonrichards on December 07, 2023, 04:07:23 AMCorrect me if I am wrong but magnetic ones are supposed to have better accuracy. I am not sure if they work in the same way as mics does.

The pickup type itself does not determine accuracy, they merely send a hexaphonic analog signal sent to the processing unit for conversion.
Any type of pickup can produce poor results if installed or setup incorrectly.
The magnetic type tend to send a 'cleaner' signal (wax potted coils for even better results),
 where piezo, being more acoustic based, is slightly contaminated with cross-talk from other strings and surface acoustic guitar body noise
 (the LOW FREQUENCY acoustic resonance bleeds to the other piezo saddles but can be fixed to some degree with a hex high pass filter).
Title: Re: Which one is better - Piezo or Magnetic hex PU?
Post by: shannonrichards on December 08, 2023, 04:44:41 AM
T
Quote from: gumtown on December 07, 2023, 02:16:45 PMThe pickup type itself does not determine accuracy, they merely send a hexaphonic analog signal sent to the processing unit for conversion.
Any type of pickup can produce poor results if installed or setup incorrectly.
The magnetic type tend to send a 'cleaner' signal (wax potted coils for even better results),
 where piezo, being more acoustic based, is slightly contaminated with cross-talk from other strings and surface acoustic guitar body noise
 (the LOW FREQUENCY acoustic resonance bleeds to the other piezo saddles but can be fixed to some degree with a hex high pass filter).

Thank you for pointing that out.