Music Developer on Windows 8: A Leap Forward for Desktops; A Leap Backward for M

Started by Elantric, June 28, 2012, 02:51:45 PM

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Elantric

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/06/music-developer-on-windows-8-a-leap-forward-for-desktops-a-leap-backward-for-metro-winrt/

Music Developer on Windows 8: A Leap Forward for Desktops; A Leap Backward for Metro, WinRT?

by Peter Kirn



There's good news and bad news on Windows 8 for music making. If you're using Windows on a conventional, Intel PC, running conventional, desktop Windows apps, the news is really all good – really good. It's still early days, but Windows 8 promises to be better than Windows 7 at audio performance metrics across the board, a no-brainer sort of upgrade for music makers.

By contrast, if you're using Windows 8 on a new ARM-based tablet or interested in seeing music apps that take advantage of the new-fangled store and app coding style, the news is looking really pretty bad.

I've talked with various developers; Cakewalk CTO Noel Borthwick has been uniquely involved in researching what's changed. He now releases details of how the developer tools work in Windows 8, as well as how desktop acts can be expected to perform, using an unmodified version of their SONAR DAW you may have running on your PC right now:

WINDOWS 8 – A BENCHMARK FOR MUSIC PRODUCTION APPLICATIONS [Cakewalk Blog]
http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/
For background, in 2009, Noel looked with us under the hood of Windows 7
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/09/29/obsessive-windows-7-under-the-hood-guide-for-music-can-you-finally-dump-xp/#more-7680

– and everything there is relevant to desktop Windows apps today under Windows 8, with further improvements added in the new version of the OS. (See below.)

That is a must-read for the technically minded, but in case you're not a developer or haven't kept up with everything happening with Windows 8, I'm going to explain some of the background. I'll look at the fundamentals of the new OS – or OSes, really – and then explain why one particular point on the version of Windows 8 you'd likely run on many tablets has a big deal-breaker for audio.
http://www.nbc.com/30-rock/exclusives/dealbreaker/
(Opinion: These are my opinions, and my take on the engineering analysis as I understand it, not Noel's or Cakewalk's; it's worth getting those ideas out there now in advance of the OS release as we expect to learn more as the thing ships.)
What It's All About

Let's explain, in terms as simple as possible. The easiest way to think about this is Standard Windows and New Windows. (I'll say "standard" rather than "old," because the "old" in this case seems to have gotten a lot of love and attention, and clearly isn't going away.)

"Standard Windows" is Windows as you now know it, with years of experience in audio APIs that make Windows computers powerful for music applications. It's the Windows that lets your hardware work, lets you plug in keyboards and audio interfaces, lets you run all the audio software you use, and get low-latency performance for virtual instruments and recording and anything else that makes sound. It's not always friendly – installing special drivers and whatnot – but it does work. And it works not only for "pros," but also "amateurs" who want to make music and don't appreciate unexpected delays between when they do something and when they hear a sound. It works on computers that are general-purpose machines used by "punters" as the Brits like to say, people having nothing to do with music. Standard "Windows 8? is, simply, Windows running on Intel as you know it.

"New Windows" is based on some, but not all, of those ingredients, and introduces software that looks and works a bit differently than the Windows you know. It's Metro running on Windows 8, the new design language involving all those colored square tiles you see, and now a set of graphic APIs for writing to it. It's not the "old" design language you've seen in, say, Excel – or SONAR or Cubase – running on Windows 7, the business with the red X button and the transparent window bars. Then, there's WinRT (short for Windows Runtime), a set of developer tools that let you code applications for "New Windows," and distribute those apps in a new, Apple-style app store from Microsoft.

If you're running a PC and you install Windows 8, you get both "Standard" and "New" Windows on your machine, and you can run each of the apps. So, when you do want to use Ableton Live or Cubase or SONAR or FL Studio, the Windows you know is there. If you want to look at a bunch of colored tiles or play some Angry Birds or use a Twitter app made for Metro, you can run that, too. You'll find yourself buying those apps from a store, the way you do on an iPhone. The same is also true of the upcoming Surface Pro tablet: it'll do both, which is why I think it will be uniquely interesting to musicians. (For some, it may be more interesting than even the iPad, because it won't make you give up the apps you already use on your laptop or desktop machine.)

There is now, however, a breed of "Windows" computers that gives you no choice. Microsoft's own non-Pro Surface is one example. These machines have ARM chips instead of Intel. And with just one set of exceptions – Microsoft's office apps – they won't run "Standard Windows." They'll only run the new-fangled Metro and WinRT stuff, via an operating system confusingly called Windows RT. Window RT is kind of Microsoft's answer to iOS.

Ah, you say, but this is a good thing. If I'm using a slim, touch-only tablet, I don't want a bunch of "legacy" apps that aren't built for the new UI metaphors.

You'd be exactly right. And that's why the bad news is really bad news if you were eyeing those machines. (Well, unless you like latency, in which case, I have, um, terrific news! You're REALLY going to love the long moments of peace and quiet between when you strike a note and when you hear a sound! It's not latency – it's moments of contemplation!)

The Bad News About WinRT

Some of WinRT's design is familiar to users of Android and iOS. You can't really install plug-ins. (You can use native code, so, in fact, there's nothing stopping things like libpd from working on Metro – complete with support for externals.) Okay, so, no deal-breaker there.

There's also no support, at least that we can tell, for audio or MIDI hardware. That's kind of a deal breaker, given you can take a range of audio and MIDI hardware and plug it directly into an iPad. But, part of the advantage of a tablet is portability, and this is a first-generation product, so let's give them a pass there.

There's WASAPI, the low-latency audio framework first seen in Windows Vista. Okay, that's good news – low-latency audio framework. That's what's missing on Android, and what's present (as "Core Audio") on iOS, the guts that have made all these music apps possible on iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch.

Now, here's the deal-killer: it's missing the low-latency bits. Noel explains:

    WASAPI supports low latency via what is known as "exclusive mode" where an application can bypass the high latency introduced by the system mixer. However based on reports from Microsoft it would appear that low latency audio applications were not considered in the Metro application model. See this blog post where Microsoft states that 100 msec was considered to be their goal for acceptable latency!

Updated: Just to clarify, since some folks are questioning whether this is as bad as it sounds, the issue is, without Exclusive Mode you do need to route audio through a device mixer that allows simultaneous audio from multiple apps. That's a source of this latency and why you see the 100 ms figure. We're still researching to find out if there really is no Exclusive Mode available in WinRT, but presently, it at the very least isn't documented and isn't working in apps.

Oh, yeah, and with no low-level support for driver models to replace that, you can't plug in your own hardware to get high-quality, low-latency audio that way. You're just, uh, out of luck. (Someone suggested that Steinberg would release ASIO for WinRT. That might be the case, if it were possible. Based on current documentation, it's not. It would also need to be in the form of a device-specific library, released with each app, based on other development requirements, so you really do need this in the OS.)

Unless we receive new information, that means it's safe to describe WinRT as completely tone-deaf. It means Microsoft learned none of the lessons of what Apple accomplished, and what Google failed to accomplish, that really nailing the quality of your multimedia layer in software.

If this developer information is correct and complete, it would appear Apple raised the bar, and then Microsoft lowered it again. And it's especially unforgivable, because unlike Google, Microsoft actually does have experience at this. Which brings us to the good news – for desktop users, that is.
Windows 8 is Looking Better Than Windows 7

Noel testing SONAR under Windows 8. Courtesy Cakewalk.

Desktop users, if this was making you feel bleak, don't. It's just a first benchmark, so should be taken with a grain of salt, but in testing SONAR on Windows 8, Noel finds a litany of performance improvements across the board, in areas like:

    Hard disk throughput
    Lower CPU load in low-latency situations
    Reduced memory usage
    Overall reduced CPU load and fewer audio glitches, thanks to improvements in the kernel and "system calls"

In short:

    The results of the benchmarks were surprisingly good! Windows 8 performed better than Windows 7 across the board in all categories, and in many cases with fairly dramatic performance gains.

Why This Matters

The logical conclusions here:
1. Windows 8 will probably be a great upgrade for musicians on the desktop Windows platform.
2. For people wanting to run the new software environment, or use new ARM-based tablets, we'd need some evidence to demonstrate that this is a usable OS for music. Based on current information, it's not – not for many applications.

You should read Noel's analysis, but he reaches similar conclusions.

Here's the rub: the fact that Windows 8 is so good when running conventional apps almost makes it more frustrating that so many new tablets will be left out of the party. Now, you could argue that "average" users don't need such things, and I'm just a "niche" musician droning on about something that matters to me – and you'd be partly right. But average users share some of the same powers of perception with sound that advanced users do; there's actual research on that. Average users can hear, and respond negatively to, 100 ms latency. And average users have made the iPad and iPhone some of the most successful products in history. Whether this was a deciding factor, it didn't stop the mass market from buying them.

You could also argue that low latency concerns would make too great a sacrifice in battery life or app security. There, not only is the iPad evidence to the contrary, but so, too, is Windows itself. Not all apps need these features, but then why not build them into the OS for those that do?

If Microsoft really did fail to learn from their own engineering accomplishments on Windows, then it's the obligation of those of us who do know something about sound to be, well, noisy about it.

When stuff works, it usually doesn't work by accident – that's true of all the OSes available today.

I'd love to be proven wrong, before Windows 8 ships on these devices. We'll be watching, and will have more complete advice for musicians on all these platforms as these tools become available.


http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/06/music-developer-on-windows-8-a-leap-forward-for-desktops-a-leap-backward-for-metro-winrt/

Mrchevy

Still using XP Pro with Sonar Home Studio 6, works and sounds good to me. Not sure how or if, all this new stuff improves your recordings but, the thought of all the months and months it took me to learn, build, set up, and work out the bugs in my recording setup..........I'm good where I am. I still maintain that you could give someone Abby Roads Studio and still end up with crap if they don't know what their doing yet give a top notch engineer a portable tape recorder and get a good recording. It's all in how you use it. I have no latency issues, and if I can't hear any, then the average listener won't for sure. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Simplicity is a virtue, even in electronics. 8)
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

Interesting article  / history lesson  / that explains current OS wars and legal battles between the three major players (Apple, Microsoft, Google)

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/10/the-windows-8-catastrophe-controversy/

and  a decent set of tutorials

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/10/why-ive-changed-my-mind-about-windows-8/


Navigating your way around Windows 8
http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/09/navigating-your-way-around-windows-8/

Navigating your way around Windows 8: Customize the desktop

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/10/navigating-your-way-around-windows-8-customize-the-desktop/

Navigating your way around Windows 8: Customize the Start Screen
http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/10/navigating-your-way-around-windows-8-customize-the-start-screen/

Navigating your way around Windows 8: Task Manager

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/09/navigating-your-way-around-windows-8-task-manager/

Navigating your way around Windows 8: Keyboard Shortcuts

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2012/09/navigating-your-way-around-windows-8-keyboard-shortcuts/

Hope this helps.

But as always


" Relying on other peoples' opinions to form one of your own is fraught with pitfalls."

Kevin M

Lots of good information as always...thanks!  Bottom line for me is to stick with Win 7 for the foreseeable future.  I'll let everyone else do the beta testing for me!  :-)

Now_And_Then

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/how-tos/install_windows_8_today?page=0,1

This link is to a page with instructions for installing a virtualized Win 8 as a guest OS under your currrent OS using Virtualbox.

I haven't done this yet but am hoping to get around to it in the next few days. I would expect that audio software will function with too much latency to be usable if installed in a virtualized Win 8 but it might be the easiest, least intrusive way to set up Win 8 on my computer to explore it a bit.

gumtown

Quote from: Now_And_Then on November 06, 2012, 11:58:02 PM
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/how-tos/install_windows_8_today?page=0,1

This link is to a page with instructions for installing a virtualized Win 8 as a guest OS under your currrent OS using Virtualbox.

I haven't done this yet but am hoping to get around to it in the next few days. I would expect that audio software will function with too much latency to be usable if installed in a virtualized Win 8 but it might be the easiest, least intrusive way to set up Win 8 on my computer to explore it a bit.
It will be very slow, one operating system working with in another works slowly, and a more advanced operating system working within it's predecessor as a shell isn't too good either.
I suggest creating a partion on the hard drive and install windows 8 along side windows 7 as a dual boot system, or if you have a desktop, install an extra harddrive, either both together or swap them around.

My toshiba i5 laptop has an eSATA port (similar to USB3) which i use a eSATA hard-drive drop in cradle where i can drop in bare 2.5" or 3.5" HD drives with an operating system installed on each, one with windows 7-64, one with linux-64, one with windows 8, and mac osx mountain lion -64. And i use VM-Ware on the laptop internal HDD (under win7-32) to run windows xp, windows 98, mac osx Tiger 10.4 and linux 32.
The laptop bios is set to boot first from any USB device (if present).
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

Since many Windows RT machines are being blown out cheap now
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171314107086

Do you expect there to be support with your QT C++ Compiler for ARM based Windows RT devices?
https://qt-project.org/
( and port version of your Roland Floorboard Editors to Windows RT?)

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2096820

mbenigni

Microsoft really needs to work on their PR.  It's the same pattern across all of their product lines: when customers make a request, instead of saying "maybe", or "later", or anything that might give hope or open channels of discussion, they say "NO."  And then, when it's already too late, they say, "Oh by the way, here's that perfectly reasonable thing you wanted."  Up until that point, they behave as if its absence were part of some grand vision, instead of a being a simple limitation or oversight.  A change in tone would cost them nothing, and avoid so many of their fires.

Windows 8:  Start menu?  No, no, no, no, no... here ya go.
Xbox One:  SKU without mandatory Kinect?  No, no, no, no, no... here ya go.  (Actually, the list goes on and on with Xbox One.)
Win RT:  MIDI? No, no, no, no, no.... here ya go.

I would promptly fire everyone who's spoken with a journalist or typed a word into a customer forum between roughly 2011 and 2013.

Elantric

QuoteMicrosoft really needs to work on their PR.

Thats but one of 1000's of other things they really need to work on.

Playing catchup to Touch competition, while ignoring their core fundamental strength in the Business world has killed their goose.

I have about the same desire to buy a new Win 8.1 Touch screen computer as would have for buying a new Blackberry from RIM, or having a root canal at the Dentist.

mbenigni

QuotePlaying catchup to Touch competition, while ignoring their core fundamental strength in the Business world has killed their goose.

I agree 100%.  My take:  it's a shame that Microsoft wants so desperately to be Apple, because they suck at it, and they used to be really great at being Microsoft.  Used to be.  Increasingly I can't make heads or tails of anything they do - from OS to apps to tools, it's a despairing mess.


P.S.  I'm just venting when I say things like "I'd promptly fire everyone..."  With so many people out of work these days, that is perhaps not the best way to express my frustration.   :-X

gumtown

Quote from: Elantric on May 15, 2014, 10:53:48 AM
Do you expect there to be support with your QT C++ Compiler for ARM based Windows RT devices?
https://qt-project.org/
( and port version of your Roland Floorboard Editors to Windows RT?)

Win Rt is on the road map for the Qt 5.4 release, but I don't think it resolves any USB driver issues (or the lack of Rt midi USB drivers)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

Quote from: mbenigni on May 16, 2014, 07:47:03 AM
Windows 8:  Start menu?  No, no, no, no, no... here ya go.
Xbox One:  SKU without mandatory Kinect?  No, no, no, no, no... here ya go.  (Actually, the list goes on and on with Xbox One.)
Win RT:  MIDI? No, no, no, no, no.... here ya go.

Like this?
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

mbenigni


Elantric

QuoteWin Rt is on the road map for the Qt 5.4 release, but I don't think it resolves any USB driver issues (or the lack of Rt midi USB drivers)

But using a generic USB to MIDI Class Compliant cables should provide a hardware MIDI I/O path on Windows RT  - once MS Releases support for MIDI  - in theory.