GR-55 - Marc Benigni's GR-55 TouchOSC Navigator for iPad

Started by MCK, February 17, 2011, 03:05:24 AM

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Toff.

So glad this topic is revived :)
I am struggling with time to invest effort in the Lemur interface I started, I got somewhere with to midi stuff thanks to your combined efforts with Fabien :)
I hope to be able to work again soon on it.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

supernicd

Agreed.  All in all, the GR-55 does have an awful lot going for it.  When I was using it all the time, sure there were times I wished that there were a few more FX blocks or that I had a little more control over the signal flow, but these could usually be overcome with a little creativity or just thinking differently about how to accomplish the goal. 

The #1 obstacle was always the pain of getting the tones dialed in just right.  A good bi-directional real-time controller that makes it easy to make tweaks to the sound shape while in the rehearsal room goes a long way toward making the 55 an extremely versatile, relevant, and usable tool.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

mbenigni

#352
Joe - thanks for your kind words above.

QuoteInterestingly, out of all of the guitar/amp modeling gizmos that I have, the VG-99 is the one among them that does not make me long for a supplemental controller.  Now that I've learned where things are, they're all accessible pretty easily with the important ones being 1-2 button taps away, and when you get to the block you want to adjust, all the right knobs seem to be there, just like they would be on an amp panel or stompbox.

A few physical, context-sensitive knobs are worth their weight in gold.  Wish Roland would just increase the cost of their new products the few bucks it would take to carry that philosophy forward.  If the GR55 had had maybe half a dozen knobs (gain, tone, vol, rev) I wouldn't have needed to go down the TouchOSC path at all.  Instead we got rhythm, lead, other, user, v-link, and three patch select pedals that are pretty close to non-functional.  Thanks for nothing.

QuoteSo looks like you do all of your patch creation through this as well?

Yes, I like to be able to pull the GR55 and iPad out and get to work.  No cables, no booting up a PC, no fan noise, etc.

QuoteThat probably wouldn't be my goal with a tablet controller.  If I were to build one, I think I'd go with big knobs and buttons to access just a few of the "big ones" in terms of live sound.  Tone stack controls, guitar tone knob, reverb level, perhaps OD/DS gain and tone, EQ, maybe a few others, as these are what I find I need to tweak in the rehearsal room on my pre-created patches.

This is a very reasonable approach (more reasonable than anything I ever do LOL): use the superior Floorboard app on PC for deep editing, and tweak the "traditional" amp controls, etc. with your iPad.  The good news is that you could probably get something like that up and running in TB MIDI, or MIDI Designer, or whatever in about an hour.  Just steal what you want from my Live page, and position/ resize to taste.  In addition to what you list, I would advise you keep reverb/delay/chorus sends from the amp signal path, reverb/delay sends from bypass (where you will often have PCMs routed) and levels for the PCMs themselves.  (I use XY pads for PCM level/pan, but in reality I'm in mono 90% of the time anyway.)

And then, at least one XY pad for a set of assigns is just plain fun...

P.S.  I've got my eye on the Tuna Knobs kickstarter in the interest of doing a new Live page with physical controls - and other tabs could become context-sensitive with those knobs targeting deeper edits.  Pricey, though:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/samuelverburg/tuna-knobs-stick-em-to-your-tablet-and-its-a-contr

QuoteBut that kind of thing makes the bi-directional thing almost a must; you'd have to know where you were starting from, or at least I would.

Yes, this is the one major let-down with the TouchOSC solution.  I've tried to minimize the pain by laying things out so that - wherever possible - you can touch-and-tweak all in one go, using your ears.  For instance, the gain (channel) switch and gain level are incorporated on fader, the solo (boost) switch and boost level are on one fader, the mod switch and distortion/od level are one fader, etc.  So even if you don't know where you are, it's pretty trivial to swipe your finger on the screen and plant yourself right in the mix for both rhythm and solos.  You just don't want a chord ringing out at full throttle when you do it, probably.  :)

mbenigni

Quote from: Toff. on July 20, 2014, 09:14:11 PM
So glad this topic is revived :)
I am struggling with time to invest effort in the Lemur interface I started, I got somewhere with to midi stuff thanks to your combined efforts with Fabien :)
I hope to be able to work again soon on it.

Hope it helps, Toff.  Let me know if you have any specific questions, and please keep us posted on your progress!  All this talk about bi-directional comms has me thinking about using a different app for a new template, if only for my new "Live" layout.

supernicd

You almost have my curiosity going enough to try something in Lemur. ;)

One of the beautiful things about Lemur is that (at least in theory) an object on the screen (say a rotary) can be MIDI mapped to some real world MIDI controller (say an endless rotary on a keyboard controller or other dedicated MIDI controller hardware), and in addition, a change in the value of the rotary object could send SysEx messages to the 55.  So in this way, in theory, you could have additional real hardware knobs dedicated to controlling 55 parameters, and it would be global, rather than having to set up assigns on each patch.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

mbenigni

QuoteOne of the beautiful things about Lemur is that (at least in theory) an object on the screen (say a rotary) can be MIDI mapped to some real world MIDI controller (say an endless rotary on a keyboard controller or other dedicated MIDI controller hardware), and in addition, a change in the value of the rotary object could send SysEx messages to the 55.  So in this way, in theory, you could have additional real hardware knobs dedicated to controlling 55 parameters, and it would be global, rather than having to set up assigns on each patch.

Interesting... so I take it Lemur is sitting in the middle, brokering CC messages to/from the rotary controller, and SysEx to/from the GR55 in this scenario?

Control Surface <--->  iPad/Lemur <---> GR55

supernicd

#356
Exactly.  I think it could work anyway.  Only one way to find out I guess. :)

BTW, did Roland ever release the MIDI implementation for the GR-55, or is it still only available to those that beg, persuade, and then sign an NDA?
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

admin

#357
You must be ordained and knighted and be named Gumtown and have signed an NDA to obtain GR55 MIDI SPEC.

admin

#358
Why not just use an Arturia a Beatstep. 16 rotary  knobs that can be assigned to control anything you want using its GUI Editor

supernicd

Quote from: admsustainiac on July 21, 2014, 09:56:56 AM
You must be ordained and knighted and be named Gumtown and have signed an NDA to obtain GR55 MIDI SPEC.

Well now that's just silly (Roland's policy - your quote is probably very close to truth).  :)

Quote from: admsustainiac on July 21, 2014, 09:59:06 AM
Why not just use an Arturia a Beatstep. 16 rotary  knobs that can be assigned to control anything you want using its GUI Editor

I haven't heard the greatest things about the Beatstep at this point.  Can it be configured for SysEx messages?  If so, then I guess the only downside is you wouldn't get any visual feedback.  Probably not the end of the world but nice to have.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

Quote
I haven't heard the greatest things about the Beatstep at this point. 

I'm rather happy with mine,  very sturdy - but true there is only MIDI Out - (no MIDI in), so feedback is not possible

More about Arturia a Beatstep here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11113.msg82651#msg82651

Toff.

Quote from: mbenigni on July 21, 2014, 09:42:28 AM
Interesting... so I take it Lemur is sitting in the middle, brokering CC messages to/from the rotary controller, and SysEx to/from the GR55 in this scenario?

Control Surface <--->  iPad/Lemur <---> GR55

:)
That is exactly what I want to achieve, and why I tried both TBMS and Lemur.

I want to use the ipad as the brain, the middle man, between the gr55 and the VoiceLive3 (or any pedal for that matter), because while performing I cannot touch the ipad, plus it is used for reading lyrics already.

The VL3 doubles as a footswich, in the sense that it has 3 layers mapped to the same button layout. You switch from vocal to guitar and to looper by toggling a footswich, and the CCs sent are unique in each case, meaning I can control my harmonies and effects on my microphone live, then switch to the guitar layer and use the pedal to "talk" to either the gr-55 directly or to the ipad which can compute it into more complex orders to either or both devices.

I have done some tests just to validate a few points but now I am on paper; as an ex-developer I prefer to map my journey before writing a single line of code, once assumptions are verified - mapping also helps refining all these assumptions, so I may factually be chasing the impossible ;)

My goal is really to keep using the gr-55 but expand from its limitations. I like the beast but it's interface is limited - it contains a bit of everything Roland can do, but is not specifically great at all of them, and so is the hardware (only way I can explain the cut between patches, the looper limitations and the max. Assigns).

Most of my presets use all available assigns, because I often need to trigger more sounds within the same patch or manage more than one alt tuning.
Triggering and assign with external CC is easy, but limited, both because it requires anticipation (and I play a lot of jazz impromlive in one of my bands) and also because of 8 max assigns.

I hope to be able to use Sysex to activate stuff on the synth and cosm without having to program them as assigns and lemur or TBMS to be the controller.

Also, as discussed in other threads, I'd be keen to experiment with the GR-55's midi tracking OUT to The ipad so that it detects a specific note or sequence and can send back some Sysex (such as "detects 22nd fret on low E -> switch PCM1 to '010 piano' on GR-55 + activate 'delay' on vocal layer of VL3).

Marc, the task is daunting because - while I understand it - I never actually used Sysex and debugging on the fly is certainly time costly (and the VL3 does require signed). This is why your work as well as Gumtown's is impressive and helpful to us all :) saves heaps of research on the GR-55 side.

I would be happy and honoured to share some schematics with you down the track.
I am currently building the catalog of features that could be expected, in a fashion that doesn't tie it to my specific use. I would like to create templates or pages that hold some logic but allow each of us to modify what it does. Which is why I have been looking at Lemur and it's scripting engine.

The idea of separating the logic for interactions (type of trigger (played a note, pressed a switch, ...) + type of response (send Sysex for instrument change, send Sysex for volume change, send cc) for any origin and target is appealing but probably batshit insane considering the differences in Sysex and available CCs :)
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

Toff.

Quote from: SuperNiCd on July 21, 2014, 06:02:45 AM
A good bi-directional real-time controller that makes it easy to make tweaks to the sound shape while in the rehearsal room goes a long way toward making the 55 an extremely versatile, relevant, and usable tool.

I believe Gumtown's editor is exactly that. If needing to manipulate the gr-55 on its own for research and prep, his editor is Gold.

In a live situation, with hands tied to the guitar and only feet, that's where I want to use iPads and such, but otherwise the floorboard editor is what you want :)
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

admin

QuoteI want to use the ipad as the brain, the middle man, between the gr55 and the VoiceLive3 (or any pedal for that matter), because while performing I cannot touch the ipad, plus it is used for reading lyrics already.

Might consider skipping iPad and using a MIDI Event Solutions Processor Plus to accomplish your goal

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodepp.htm

Toff.

I did - they are good devices.
Only issue is their software only works on Windows - I am on Mac. I could use bootcamp or virtual machine, but it is a hassle - I much prefer something immediate and that I can edit "on the go" :)
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

mbenigni

Quoteas an ex-developer I prefer to map my journey before writing a single line of code, once assumptions are verified - mapping also helps refining all these assumptions, so I may factually be chasing the impossible

I'm a software developer as well, and potential for "chasing the impossible" is exactly why I tend toward the opposite - i.e. developing proof of concept sooner rather than later, and scaling from there.  It's too easy to get bogged down in the "academic" phase.  I like to say that the best design tool is a development tool.  A development tool always tells the truth.  :)  If you really want to get some momentum going, pick an interface and an app, and then choose one or two GR55 parameters to target.  If you can get that much working, adding more is a cinch.  And if you can't, you can move on, which sometimes is the bigger victory!

As for the rest... I could babble all day.  I'll continue in separate posts.


Toff.

Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

tonemaster

Hi Toff
I'm interested in acquiring either a TCH or DT voice processor. As you have both, what do you see as the preferences/advantages one to the other. I'm looking at a VL2 and whatever the comparable DT product is. In relation to this topic, I'm very interested in linking/triggering the devices with the 55 to streamline live performance.


damienmcgauley

Great to see that there's been a little life breathed back into this thread!

I'd love to see a simple Bi-Directional wired Lemur interface between the iPad and GR-55 (no PC required).

I'd feel comfortable about paying for Lemur as I could use it for both GR-55 and Axe Fx II then.

I can't believe that roland have never addressed this and I don't think there's any hope now that their energies are more focused on developing/marketing their newer (GP-10) products.

Damien.

mbenigni

QuoteI'd love to see a simple Bi-Directional wired Lemur interface between the iPad and GR-55 (no PC required).

Well, one point I keep coming around to is that transferring the SysEx from TouchOSC to another app (e.g. Lemur) would be very easy - just download their editor and my template and copy/paste.  Worst case is you've got some notepad/excel/whatever replacing to do to account for syntax differences.  This is an especially reasonable undertaking if you know you only need some (i.e. performance-related) parameters, versus a full recreation of my template.

The part that remains unknown - and which largely determines return on investment - is to what extent the bi-directional communications work.  Even if the app and interface support this in theory, some of the SysEx strings being passed from iPad to GR55 are complex, and I wouldn't assume that they'll automatically fly in the opposite direction and update screen elements on the iPad.  That might happen, or that might require additional engineering, or that might be outright impossible.

But if you (meaning anyone) own one of these apps already, pick a couple of controls, take an hour or so, and give it a shot!

Toff, I still you owe you a reply or two.  Started writing and disappeared up my own... thoughts.  ;)  Basic gist of what I wrote is the advice I keep trying to take for myself:  keep it simple!

damienmcgauley

Hi Marc,

I'm afraid I'm at a total loss when it comes to any sort of software programming  :-[. I suppose an App is the best I can hope for!

I know it's easy "if you know how" but I'm afraid I've got no programming experience. I have great respect for the guys on here who seem to be able to spend hours building up a software to control their gear!

mbenigni

I hear you, Damien.  I happen to have a lot of programming experience, but I wouldn't call any of what I did for the GR55/TouchOSC project programming, per se.  Maybe kind of a fine line, but it was more a power-user/ configuration/ design sort of process.  Having an engineering background was helpful on occasions when things went wrong, I guess, but not strictly necessary.  The guy that developed TouchOSC did most of the heavy lifting; I just put things where I wanted them and dropped in the appropriate SysEx strings.

Having said all that, you have to weigh the benefits of any technical solution against the pain you're going to experience getting it up and running.  So if you're not into tackling technical projects as a hobby, often it's just not worth it.

mbenigni

Just attaching some recent versions of the template, having heard from someone interested in trying this out.  ("GR55 2014.touchosc" is a work in progress...)

Toff.

Dude, you rock.
Just when I was looking into your OSC work again to try and decipher some for my self on Lemur.

I have been silently working on my ideas and investing in my gear. Still here, just busy.

I hope to bring good news at some stage, but the learning curve is steep ^^
Still struggling to spy/monitor some aspects of the GR-55 from Floorboard (I don't know where I would be without this amazing software!).
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

mbenigni

#374
Thanks for the kind words, Toff.  I meant to get back to you sooner with some thoughts about your stated aims above, but time got away and... well now my thoughts don't seem so important.  :)  Benefit of hindsight and all that.

Lemur is probably the steepest learning curve of all the apps we've discussed, but probably yields the biggest payoff if you really master it.  That's always the way.  Try to start simple, and steal someone else's code if you can.  :)  All you need is something that can respond to a button press by sending SysEx string.

If you're running a MIDI monitor and trying to get SysEx out of Floorboard, do yourself a BIG favor and steal it from the TouchOSC editor instead!  I got almost all of my SysEx by painstakingly copying it from Floorboard (thank you, gumtown!) and it was very time consuming.  You can't copy and paste, so I was taking screen caps to try to isolate which bytes were changing, etc.  Don't reinvent the wheel - just load my template, find the control you want to implement, and copy/paste the SysEx from the MIDI field (circled in red in this screen cap.)  Pretty sure you'll thank me later.


P.S.  Don't try testing the waters by pulling that example directly off the screen cap - the field scrolls and the actual SysEx is significantly longer.  :D