FTP - DIY adapter to use GK 13 Pin Guitars with Tripleplay

Started by utensil, April 21, 2013, 01:29:52 PM

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Elantric

Quote
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on May 31, 2017, 09:27:31 AM
A simple envelope follower with trigger and gate outputs is all you need.  Check out the Eurorack modular synth sites; here is the one I got:
https://www.perfectcircuitaudio.com/envelop-follower-module.html

Interesting! I was just looking at eurorack stuff, toying with building rack with enough resonant filters to process 8 pickups at 2 different points in the signal chain. Ended up with this so far:


Would it really be as simple as you describe though? I'd think in order to utilize cv envelope triggers and gates to control the 6Appeal's envelope function I would need 6 envelope followers, a CV->MIDI interface and use software to translate the triggers and gates into note on/off data and send each module to a seperate midi channel. In theory that should be possible but I imagine this would be a much more complicated method to achieve something that might be done better and cheaper with a GR55. I have zero real world experience with modular and CV based gear though so if I'm totally wrong I'd love to be enlightened

KORG X-911  = Another piece of gear that converts guitar to CV/Gate for driving 500 series synths modules






http://www.matrixsynth.com/2013/03/korg-x-911-vintage-analog-guitar-synth.html

Quote"Early guitar/ synth tech! You can plug a guitar in as intended & trigger the 2 banks of sounds, which can be used together in any combination. 3-postion octave switch, Interval knob for detuning, Filter knob & auto-wah effect & a Portamento function, too.

Loads of sockets for interconnectivity, including CV & Gate Ins & Outs- so you could hook it up to your Hz/V synths, allowing you to use this as an expander module for an MS10, for example, adding 2 more oscillators, or to trigger your Yamaha CS synth from a guitar. Of course, you can also plug in another source, say a drum machine to the Guitar in socket, there is a knob & switch for various Input levels."



or a Doepfer A-100


http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: chlorinemist on May 31, 2017, 01:01:59 PM
Interesting! I was just looking at eurorack stuff, toying with building rack with enough resonant filters to process 8 pickups at 2 different points in the signal chain. Ended up with this so far:


Would it really be as simple as you describe though? I'd think in order to utilize cv envelope triggers and gates to control the 6Appeal's envelope function I would need 6 envelope followers, a CV->MIDI interface and use software to translate the triggers and gates into note on/off data and send each module to a seperate midi channel. In theory that should be possible but I imagine this would be a much more complicated method to achieve something that might be done better and cheaper with a GR55. I have zero real world experience with modular and CV based gear though so if I'm totally wrong I'd love to be enlightened

I am using the standard guitar pickups (in my case Cycfi Research passive XR Dual Flex) to generate the overall signal envelope and trigger.  I don't think it's necessary to have an EF for each string.  My hex pickup (Cycfi Research Nu Multi 6) signal is routed directly into 6APPEAL, while the guitar signal goes to the envelope follower.  It simplifies matters considerably.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chlorinemist

#152
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on May 31, 2017, 02:52:12 PM
I am using the standard guitar pickups (in my case Cycfi Research passive XR Dual Flex) to generate the overall signal envelope and trigger.  I don't think it's necessary to have an EF for each string.  My hex pickup (Cycfi Research Nu Multi 6) signal is routed directly into 6APPEAL, while the guitar signal goes to the envelope follower.  It simplifies matters considerably.

Good to hear. I found a few pedals that might be suitable for this purpose




It seems like the best way to go about itt would be to use the envelope out from one of these and convert it to note on/off messages with Expert Sleepers Silent Way software. Or do you have another method for getting CV/gate signals to communicate with 6Appeal's MIDI input?

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: chlorinemist on June 06, 2017, 08:10:36 PM
Good to hear. I found a few pedals that might be suitable for this purpose




It seems like the best way to go about itt would be to use the envelope out from one of these and convert it to note on/off messages with Expert Sleepers Silent Way software. Or do you have another method for getting CV/gate signals to communicate with 6Appeal's MIDI input?

Either the MIDI module in the Nexus box or a CV-MIDI Eurorack module will work.  For the former you can use one of the rear inputs on Nexus.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Smash

Quote from: susbemol on January 19, 2016, 05:29:10 AM
I finished building mine and it is all working really well so far. :) Thanks again, CodeSmart and the others for the help.

I've written a blog entry with more details here: http://guitarsandsynths.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/roland-gk-to-fishman-tripleplay-adaptor



Did you ever do the tracking comparisons? I'm sure there are a few people who'd be interested

Also what resistance did the trim pots generally end up at?

susbemol

I did some initial comparisons which showed the FTP to be quite a bit better than my other devices (GP-10 and GI-20). The interesting part was that the GI-20 not only tracked better but it was faster than the GP-10 as well. I really should put something together at some point but haven't really had the time or inclination to do so since.

I am not sure what the actual resistance the pots ended up set at... I just set them all until I was getting a fairly healthy signal into the receiver from all strings. I works brilliantly and is by far the best pitch to MIDI setup I have used.

steadystate

#156
Sorry to raise such an old thread, but I'm currently splitting my GK for use with the FTP.  I am running the GK-3 into the GK preamp board (internal kit) and out the guitar's 13-pin connector using a standard Roland 13-pin cable.  Standard setup so far.  I will then plug the cable into a 13-pin splitter, one side going to a VG-99 and the other to an attenuator and Molex for the FTP.

My question is, do I really need 12 coupling caps?  It seems I should only need the 6 that feed the FTP.  As far as DC is concerned, the FTP branch is an open circuit.  Thoughts?

Quote from: Elantric on April 22, 2013, 04:47:20 PM
But I would prefer a method where I could feed the 13 pin gear along with the wireless MIDI from FTP.

                           |---->GK-3 -> 13pin
One hex PU 8 pin---|
                           |---->FTP controller > wireless MIDI

and the "Y" Adapter could be very straight forward.

Mount one hex PU of choice( FTP, GK-3, GK-2A, G1D, PU100, AIX-101) Let the stock Hex PU Cable be the input to the Custom Mag Hex PU "Y-Splitter" to feed two targets.

On this  Custom Mag Hex PU "Y-Splitter" there MUST be 12 "coupling capacitors": 
* Six Caps to feed the Hex PU String Inputs on FTP Controller.
* Six Caps to feed the Hex PU String Inputs on the GK3 preamp target.
The 12 Capacitors are required to prevent DC voltage interference and offsets between the two different systems.
Small Surface Mount caps are available, but must be of adequate capacity to pass the low fundamental frequencies of the Guitar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_coupling



Elantric

#157
QuoteSorry to raise such an old thread, but I'm currently splitting my GK for use with the FTP.  I am running the GK-3 into the GK preamp board (internal kit) and out the guitar's 13-pin connector using a standard Roland 13-pin cable.  Standard setup so far.  I will then plug the cable into a 13-pin splitter, one side going to a VG-99 and the other to an attenuator and Molex for the FTP.

My question is, do I really need 12 coupling caps?  It seems I should only need the 6 that feed the FTP.  As far as DC is concerned, the FTP branch is an open circuit.  Thoughts?

You are describing a completely different topology  - you are feeding the FTP DSP board not from the GK PU output, but After the GK-3 preamp 13 pin output  -
So you should follow the design member "Utensil"  has successfully employed with passive attenuator trimmer pots as detailed here: 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;msg=78842;topic=8413.25





this is very different than using one GK PU to feed both GK-3 and FTP as described below:

QuoteBut I would prefer a method where I could feed the 13 pin gear along with the wireless MIDI from FTP.

                           |---->GK-3 -> 13pin
One hex PU 8 pin---|
                           |---->FTP controller > wireless MIDI

and the "Y" Adapter could be very straight forward.

Mount one hex PU of choice( FTP, GK-3, GK-2A, G1D, PU100, AIX-101) Let the stock Hex PU Cable be the input to the Custom Mag Hex PU "Y-Splitter" to feed two targets.

On this  Custom Mag Hex PU "Y-Splitter" there MUST be 12 "coupling capacitors": 
* Six Caps to feed the Hex PU String Inputs on FTP Controller.
* Six Caps to feed the Hex PU String Inputs on the GK3 preamp target.
The 12 Capacitors are required to prevent DC voltage interference and offsets between the two different systems.
Small Surface Mount caps are available, but must be of adequate capacity to pass the low fundamental frequencies of the Guitar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_coupling

steadystate


scratch17

@utensil said:

QuoteI was really pleasantly surprised to find that the RMC system on my Godin Grand Concert (2008 polydrive) guitar outputs individual string signals even with the battery REMOVED. My Graphtech guitars have absolutely no signal output when not powered.

3) The output from the Godin's 13 pin UNPOWERED RMC polydrive is in the right range and can be plugged directly into the triple play.THIS IS GREAT NEWS!! a direct 13 pin to FTP adapter can be made and is just a matter of connecting wires and requires no additional batteries , trimpots etc.

I am confused (my normal state). Are you saying that I could unplug the battery in my RMC equipped Brian Moore i213 and connect the Triple Play directly with no need for trim pots? But with the battery installed output would need to be attenuated with trim pots.

2. In order to use the FTP and a VG-99 simultaneously, I would need trim pots.

I would like to be able to use both at the same time. Adding trim pots is not a really big deal, so that is what I will do. I will use my RMC Fanout Box to split the 13 pin signal.

                                               --> VG-99
GK output --> RMC Fanout Box |
                                               --> FTP adapter with trim pots
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

chrish

The low Tech Solution of course is just to have two hex pickups on the guitar,  one FTP and one Gk3. Easy.

susbemol

Here is a stripboard layout I created which could be useful to anyone else looking to build a box like mine:



I actually used a very similar solution to connect a 13-pin signal to an old (and broken!) GK1 pickup so I could use my modern GK equipped guitar with a real, vintage GR300. That works great too:


Bruce Hugo

Man, when I read DIY forums, I begin to question how I don't just die out due to natural selection.

So, if I owned a Godin Grand Concert SA guitar, a Fishman Triple Play, a 13 pin cable, and a 1.5mm 8 pin termination,
then all I'd need to do is:

open up the cable,
solder/crimp wires 1-6 to the 8 pin termination,
open the Triple play,
plug in both terminations,
and remove the battery from the guitar...? 

At which point I would have the best tracking nylon string midi guitar available?

Thanks in advance.

Also, my gratitude goes out to everyone who has worked and contributed to this wonderful endeavor.

cags12

Anyone in this long thread that made the mod and are no longer using the FTP Hex pickup.

Would you be interested in selling it to me for a reasonable price?

Vaultnaemsae

I might have one available next week. I'll keep you in the loop.
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

cags12


whippinpost91850

Same here I have one completely updated complete withpedal steel program. I may sell. And just keep my internal kit

admin

Quote from:  pksmith11
I've been reading this thread and think I understand what to do, but need a little guidance:

I want to drive the triple play with my Godin grand concert and use the note on/off messages to control envelopes on my 6appeal through one of codesmart's midi boxes, and also do the normal computer midi stuff.

To build the adapter I need to solder an attenuator in line with each of the 6 string channels and solder the lines from the mag input on the triple play to the 6 individual attenuators. Can anyone point me towards the correct attenuators and PCs board? I know it's all in this thread, but I keep getting lost scrolling through the pages. Thanks!

I suggest find a used Roland GR-33 - might be cheaper too.
https://reverb.com/p/roland-gr-33

pksmith11

#168
I realize some folks on this forum have tried this mod and tweaked it/honed it or moved on. I just got hip to this whole concept and created a box with trimpots to use with my Godin Grand Concert. My hopes were so high because the FTP works so well when set up out of the box. But I found that the crosstalk on my piezos driving the FTP made this completely unusable. Even with low sensitivity settings and volume trimmed way down there are just way too many false triggers. Has anybody overcome this issue with a Godin nylon? I soooooo want this to work but it looks like I may have to revert to using the ugly wart mounted on the top of my strat ☹️

MPDmike

Quote from: pksmith11 on February 28, 2018, 08:24:17 PM
I realize some folks on this forum have tried this mod and tweaked it/honed it or moved on. I just got hip to this whole concept and created a box with trimpots to use with my Godin Grand Concert. My hopes were so high because the FTP works so well when set up out of the box. But I found that the crosstalk on my piezos driving the FTP made this completely unusable. Even with low sensitivity settings and volume trimmed way down there are just way too many false triggers. Has anybody overcome this issue with a Godin nylon? I soooooo want this to work but it looks like I may have to revert to using the ugly wart mounted on the top of my strat ☹️

Being mainly a fingerstyle player, I also went for a nylon option with the Carvin NS1 and an Axon AX50, but I was never happy with the reliability due to mis-triggering and crosstalk, so I went on to buy a Tripleplay Strat.

Perhaps the problem is inherent in the combination of nylon strings and piezos? I wonder if any of the companies has researched how to isolate the piezo pickups from each other (maybe a re-designed bridge) and found a way to boost the plucked string transients while reducing the accidental noises we produce when moving our hands on the strings. I feel sure that there must be a technical solution available for nylon string players.

admin

QuotePerhaps the problem is inherent in the combination of nylon strings and piezos? I wonder if any of the companies has researched how to isolate the piezo pickups from each other (maybe a re-designed bridge)

Godin electrics with RMC piezos made after mid 2011 have improved lower crosstalk and built in EQ in the active RMC preamp to minimize low frequency rumbles.

I understand similar upgraded RMC electronics occurred in the Godin Nylon RMC Peizo guitars after 2013 

Not all Godins with RMC piezos are equal. 

pksmith11

Can anybody else confirm plug and play success using a newer Godin nylon with their FTP adapter? Maybe I just need to upgrade to a newer model.

ser.guitar

Hi all,

I am getting a guitar equipped with the internal GK kit, I have a GR-55 as well. I have read through this all thread, and what I think I have clear is how to make an adapter to that I can connect the 13 pin output of the guitar to a FTP. Now, I have a question that I did not find an answer for in the forum:

1.- My interest is in having a wireless system for the GK pickup, i.e. not needing the 13 pin cable between my guitar and the GR-55. Is that achievable with the FTP?, does anyone know of any solution for that?. What I was thinking is in sort of using the wireless transmitter and receiver of FTP and then apply it, but not sure from the receiver side in form of USB.

Thanks,

admin

Quote from: ser.guitar on March 28, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Hi all,

I am getting a guitar equipped with the internal GK kit, I have a GR-55 as well. I have read through this all thread, and what I think I have clear is how to make an adapter to that I can connect the 13 pin output of the guitar to a FTP. Now, I have a question that I did not find an answer for in the forum:

1.- My interest is in having a wireless system for the GK pickup, i.e. not needing the 13 pin cable between my guitar and the GR-55. Is that achievable with the FTP?, does anyone know of any solution for that?. What I was thinking is in sort of using the wireless transmitter and receiver of FTP and then apply it, but not sure from the receiver side in form of USB.

Thanks,

A few are working on a Wireless GK 13 pin  - limited availability and high cost


Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2588.0



CodeSmart

My input: The FTP will never connect to the GR-55 wirelessly. You will need a 13-pin cable to connect your GK guitar to the GR-55 as all the rest of us. Any wireless solution is either illegal radio FM transmitters or just on the drawing board far from realization. Hard facts! Sorry.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!