GR-55 - Specific GR-55 MIDI send question...

Started by hedfor, January 22, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hedfor

Hi all...love the ideas, and the sharing...

My name is Darren, and I've had my GR for 4 days...oh boy...awesome new toy!

Here is my setup question..first off the detials

Parker Fly Deluxe to
ART SGX 2000 (rare, but I love it and know how to use it) to
TC Electronics GForce to
MESA 20/20
MESA 2x12 slant.
Controlled by an ART X-15 (the pink thing with the two pedal CC controllers, from the 90's)

now add in the GR

MIDI out of the X-15 to the GR-55 out into the SGX MIDI input
I can change patches all day, and I am pretty sure I will be able to assign these two controllers without issue, but here is my specific question....
I see people talk about using other sound modules, comp. or software, and being able to trigger these outboard gear.
I want to be able to have Patch 1 on the GR-55, send an on/off over MIDI channel 84.
Or more specifically, how do I send ANY MIDI data to a specific controller #?

Here's something interesting...

When just having the GR connected to the...Have all banks at the 01-1

EVERY time I hit the USER button, the SGX goes to channel 1.
EVERY time I hit the LEAD button, the SGX goes to channel 1.
EVERY time I hit the RHYTHM button goes to 121, and the OTHER button goes to 113.
I see the MIDI buffer in the TC, as well, so I KNOW I am sending data fine.

This weird math, 100, 113, 121, where does that data come from and how can I control it.
For instance, If I choose USER bank 02-3, I want patch X on the SGX, and/or I want to send a control message to 84, or other #'s

I have the floorboard editor (thanx, Gum) and I can see where to ASSIGN CC, but what I want to know is how to change the data going OUT of the GR-55.

Perhaps if my question hasn't been asked clearly, how would I set this up to let's say a Keyboard, and want to trigger/use a PCM not on the GR...how do you set that up, specifically?

I have looked at most of the MIDI postings, and while many talk about it, I am missing the basic part about "assigning", or "triggering" this other PCM, from the keyboard, using the GR-55.

Where do you program these midi control message OUT of the unit?

Hope i was clear, thanks in advance, I'll be around!

D

gumtownadmin

I will try to answer your questions the best i can,

A little confusion between midi terminology channel 84 would be controller 84 (cc#84),
the GR-55 can send this data but only when a pedal is pressed.

The GR-55 does not do 'midi thru', it will only pass thru Patch change (pc#) data in a 3 byte format (bank change, control change, patch change), even if it only recieves 1 byte patch change only (from the X15).

If the ART SGX 2000 is like my two  ART SGE mkii's, it can be switched to 'midi thru' and pass thru what it receives, so the midi chain might be better X15 > SGX > GR-55.

The strange patch change behaviour is because the GR-55 has 297 User patches and 90 odd preset ones (lead, rhythm, other), the User ones occupy banks 1, 2, 3 and the Preset ones are all in one bank further up the bank list (can't remember which off hand).
So the SGX only receives patch change and ignores bank change, the presets are 30 or so) patches apart.
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.

hedfor

Wow..Gum himself..(bowing down) I'm not worthy!!

OK, I can try the X-15>SGX>GR...

I was going to see if I could find a way to easily see the sysex the GR is sending, depending on the discussion. Any ideas there, or is that worthless?

So, gum, exactly how do I (if I wanted to) send that cc#84 using the GR then.

Here is what I am trying to accomplish.

I want to use my rig the way it is now for my CURRENT NON GR guitar sound. Since I am using the SGX and the TC for processing, i wanted to BYPASS both of those units by sending cc84 FROM the GR somehow (or more THRU) as I was hoping to only have the X-15 on the floor in front of me. I could create a patch in both processors that is blank (kinda like a bypass), but the freedom to include the cc84 with the first idea would mean that I could be on ANY patch in my CURRENT rig, and then choose whatever I wanted from the GR, and would then BYPASS the other processing, giving me clean synth..then could simply go back to my main current guitar patch, which would also be set up to map to the GR with a NORMAL PICKUP only pacth.

Ya follow?

Thanks , Gum, or anyone else that can add to this discussion.

Gum, only question I have, and I will test this later today, if i am sending THRU the SGX>GR>TC, should my current midi cc and program map data go from the SGX to the TC without issue? I do have specific mappings and other cc4 and cc11 data from the footpedals that currently go from the SGX to the TC in live performance. If so, this could be an alternative that would work.

Any other links or suggestions on mapping from the SGX to the GR for patches? How does that change the assigning, since i am not going direct to the GR? I think I know , but asking in this thread anyway.

Thanks again!!

D

Elantric

#3
Quote
I was going to see if I could find a way to easily see the sysex the GR is sending, depending on the discussion. Any ideas there, or is that worthless?

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

Includes a link for a MIDI Monitor App

QuoteDebug GR-55 MIDI Transmission data with a third party free MIDI Monitor:
Windows - MIDI-OX
http://www.midiox.com/
MAC - SNOIZE
http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

gumtown

Quote from: hedfor on January 23, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
Wow..Gum himself..(bowing down) I'm not worthy!!
Sorry to dissapoint you but i am just a mere mortal pleb like you.

Quote from: hedfor on January 23, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
OK, I can try the X-15>SGX>GR...

I was going to see if I could find a way to easily see the sysex the GR is sending, depending on the discussion. Any ideas there, or is that worthless?
try midiOx or Bome's SendSX to view midi data.

Quote from: hedfor on January 23, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
So, gum, exactly how do I (if I wanted to) send that cc#84 using the GR then.
in the GR-55 system midi menu are settings for the pedals (CTL, EXP, EXP sw, S1 and S2) to send controller change data (cc#), you just select the cc# number you need.

Quote from: hedfor on January 23, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
Here is what I am trying to accomplish.

I want to use my rig the way it is now for my CURRENT NON GR guitar sound. Since I am using the SGX and the TC for processing, i wanted to BYPASS both of those units by sending cc84 FROM the GR somehow (or more THRU) as I was hoping to only have the X-15 on the floor in front of me. I could create a patch in both processors that is blank (kinda like a bypass), but the freedom to include the cc84 with the first idea would mean that I could be on ANY patch in my CURRENT rig, and then choose whatever I wanted from the GR, and would then BYPASS the other processing, giving me clean synth..then could simply go back to my main current guitar patch, which would also be set up to map to the GR with a NORMAL PICKUP only pacth.

Ya follow?
The only way to send cc#84 from the GR-55 is to step on a GR-55 pedal set to send cc#84, what is it you want to control with cc#84?

Quote from: hedfor on January 23, 2013, 07:27:43 AM
Gum, only question I have, and I will test this later today, if i am sending THRU the SGX>GR>TC, should my current midi cc and program map data go from the SGX to the TC without issue? I do have specific mappings and other cc4 and cc11 data from the footpedals that currently go from the SGX to the TC in live performance. If so, this could be an alternative that would work.
You may be better off with the midi from the X15 paralleled to the devices rather than chained using a midi 3 way splitter of some sort, so each pedal receives the same data from the footpedal. The GR-55 can't translate and re-send cc# commands, it can only receive them and interperete them to a patch parameter via an Assign, or send a cc# command via a footswitch/pedal action.

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

hedfor

Gum and Elantric....I'm honored..thanks for your input....

Final solution is X-15>SGX>GForce>GR

Now, here's my next variable to tackle.

I do not see that this is possible, but the way I have been using my SGX, GForce and the X-15...

The X-15 has two expression pedals and each can control 8cc, so a total of 16cc overall. I know the
limitations of the 8 cc for the GR.
As it looks now, I cannot use let's say one cc to CHANGE a PCM tone, say from flute to piano.

Can this be accomplished somehow? Or will I have to create the patch with the two PCM's I want, and use a cc to lower one tone out, while bringing in the other?

I think I have answered my own question, but adding the GR has brought so many ideas, and I guess I'm testing the limits first to see what I CAN and CAN'T do.

Thanks again!

D

Elantric

#6
QuoteAs it looks now, I cannot use let's say one cc to CHANGE a PCM tone, say from flute to piano.




GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0


and specifically this post

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.msg34962#msg34962

------

GR-55 will accept MIDI program change commands  -AFTER you enable MIDI Patch change reception.

And set the correct MIDI Channel too (PATCH CH = 1 thru 16)

To enable MIDI Patch change reception set (PC RX Switch = ON)

See GR-55 Owners Manual page 79



In regards to MIDI CC# control, the GR-55 restricts you to a total of eight simultaneous MIDI Continuous Controllers which you must manually assign yourself to the desired GR-55 Effect,Parameter, or function.
Of the hundreds of available GR-55 effect parameters, only 8 can be controlled using MIDI CC# for any given patch.


This is a list of ALL available Control sources for the  GR-55:
(Observe  that not all MIDI CC# (1 thru 128) are available)
You may create Eight Total Control Assign Sources from the possible controllers in this list.




"This is a list of ALL available GR-55 FX Parameter Targets you may control remotely using the EIGHT Control Source Assignments from the list above:"














gumtown

Use an Assign like this, i will assume you want to use cc#84

Assign 1***********
[Assign1: On/Off] = On
[Assign1: Target] = PCM1 Tone Number
[Assign1: Min] = 399 Flute 2
[Assign1: Max] = 002 St.Piano 2
[Assign1: Source] = CC#84 Midi Controller
[Assign1: Source Mode ] = Toggle
[Assign1: Range Low] = 0
[Assign1: Range High] = 127

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

hedfor

Gum and El..thanks for getting me on the right path...

After tooling around with the cc's i did find the 2nd item in the list..PCM Tone Number.

This will in essence allow me to turn on a PCM, or even better..have a patch with let's say piano, toe up, and then flute, toe down.

Coupla questions...(of course..oh BTW, did find JimmyGTR's doc and he describes doing what I am aiming for)

Seems that when using 'moment' you are actually scrolling through PCM sounds (if I move my foot reeeally s l o w) I can hear the PCM tones changing as I move...guess there's no way to change that, huh?

Also, i have read elsewhere that patch changes (and my PCM tone number cc) seem to be very abrubt, or have  latency. If I am using a pad to a flute, (moment) toe down to toe up, all sound dies until you hit the strings again.

Is there any way to make that more seamless? Cannot seem to find the right search terms, but I am trying. Jimmy's doc talks a little about it, but nothing to combat it.

FWIW..I can see that I am going to rely on my regular guitar rig sounds alot, and use the PCM's mostly for their real intent. For me to hit horns in Rick James, or piano in Journey kinda thing.

The reason I want to do this PCM change rather than a patch change is to have the flexibility of having two sounds toe up/toe down. Would I be better served to use a patch change to avoid the 'abruptness' (is that a word?)  of the change, regardless of if it is patch or PCM? Or how can that be minimized?

Thanks, guys!!

D

gumtown

Yes a variable controller like the EXP pedal will 'scroll' through the pcm tones between the two end points,
but a switching controller such as the CTL pedal, EXP pedal switch (toe down hard to switch) or the GK S1/S2 buttons, or external midi foot pedal will do a definite switch between the two pcm tones.

If you are stuck using the EXP pedal, then try fiddling with the Act-Range-High and Act-range-low settings, set them close for a more defined tranition point in the EXP pedal travel. Say one at 64 and the other at 65, which closes the pedal range to 1 point either side of halfway..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

hedfor

Gum..thanks for your patience...I am still unclear on a few things and will try to be painfully specific.

Patch OTHER 01-1 Ultimate pulse
There is nothing assigned that I can see in the floorboard, but I can see that EXP ON is set to pitch bend when looking at assigns on the GR..am I missing something? Why is that not shown in the floorboard?

I have read and reread the manual, and have been on the forum for hours, and been playing with this for 9 days now.
I guess I am just not grasping the nomenclature or better yet, i can only understand the controllers I can see, touch..not getting how or why to use the virt stuff.
Lets keep with he Ultimate Pulse patch. Assign 1 is WAV..how does that get triggered? Is there other documentation or some posts that will explain this in terms a child can understand?..guess I am just blocked and need an A-HA moment.

I also have read some posts where you (and GTRJimmy) are all about using as many cc's as possible to avoid the latency of switching patches, and I am SOOO down with that approach, but I am missing out on the EXPSW, WAV, LED TOGGLE, what can these do for me?

Could I ask that you post one of your craziest patches that incorporates as many of these controllers as you could use? I think that will help me get where I want.

One last thing...I keep seeing alot of posts about NOT doubling up on your cc's. Since I am using the ART X-15, and I want to be able to use one of the variable pedals to say, change PCM sound, and level, maybe even effects..I could see me using all 8 cc's on ONE toe up/down...why is this a bad thing? I have a few test patches now that you sent me in the direction of the ACT for travel of the toe up/down, and I have NOT seen any issues, but I just have 2 assigns on a test patch.

Want to know WHY this is a bad approach, as it kinda was going TO be my whole approach. Best thing here is I already can get an additional 16 effects from my SGX and TC thru my setup if I have to. But I want to concentrate on using the GR as I already know what to do with that other gear.

Thanks again for all your help!!

Darren

gumtown

Just a quick answer before i heard away for the day,
the WAV or Wave Pedal is an internal low frequency oscillator (LFO) part of the assigns, when used parameters will sweep up and down at a speed controled by 'rate', it is a controller on it's own.

Internal Pedal is another assign controller, a one shot event triggered timer.

EXPSW = Expression Pedal Switch, the switch that operates when the Expression pedal toe end is pressed hard.

LED Toggle
is used to switch the CTL pedal led on/off if an assign does not do the led switching for you.

EXPON = Expression pedal control while the expression pedal switch is 'on'.
EXPOFF = Expression pedal control while the expression pedal switch is 'off'.
The expression pedal can do two different functions depending on the EXPSW status.
If you want the same function to operate in both switch states the use EXP only.

Using many pedal functions, cc#'s or assigns is not a bad thing, only when the same ones are used for the same parameters more than once in a patch causing conflict against each other.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/