Which VGuitar System for acoustic?

Started by dreamsinger, November 13, 2015, 08:38:52 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dreamsinger

I'm primarily a solo acoustic performer and I use a lot of tunings. I find that making tuning changes in the middle of a set makes for too much "dead air" and affects how I construct a set. A luthier I know is making a run of semi-solid chambered " "acoustics" with a film transducer in the top. He tells me that adding a set of RMC pickups would be an easy addition. Neither he nor I know much about guitar synths so I'm asking for opinions on what to mate this with. My primary requirement is that it sounds like an acoustic guitar (don't see where I'd be using keyboard or horn sounds). I need to be able to select tunings quickly and possible virtual capo placement as well. I use light signal processing (reverb and chorus mostly). Which synths would fit this bill the best with the minimum of features I don't foresee using. Quality of the acoustic sound trumps simple minimalism. What say you? Thanks!

Smash

#1
Find a seconghand Variax 700 acoustic - alternate tunings on the fly and good collection of guitar models. Sadly no longer made.

Brak(E)man

#2
Quote from: Smash on November 13, 2015, 08:52:10 AM
Find a seconghand Variax 700 acoustic - alternate tunings on the fly and good collection of guitar models. Sadly no longer made.

+1

The best acoustic sound I've got from any VG or GP models is from the VG 8 ex
There's also a more than ok alt. tuning
You can find one at a good price on bay fi
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

germanicus

#3
Quote from: dreamsinger on November 13, 2015, 08:38:52 AM
I'm primarily a solo acoustic performer and I use a lot of tunings. I find that making tuning changes in the middle of a set makes for too much "dead air" and affects how I construct a set. A luthier I know is making a run of semi-solid chambered " "acoustics" with a film transducer in the top. He tells me that adding a set of RMC pickups would be an easy addition. Neither he nor I know much about guitar synths so I'm asking for opinions on what to mate this with. My primary requirement is that it sounds like an acoustic guitar (don't see where I'd be using keyboard or horn sounds). I need to be able to select tunings quickly and possible virtual capo placement as well. I use light signal processing (reverb and chorus mostly). Which synths would fit this bill the best with the minimum of features I don't foresee using. Quality of the acoustic sound trumps simple minimalism. What say you? Thanks!

A used Variax 700 acoustic.

Its the best acoustic guitar modeling available with digital alternate tunings.

There are other alternatives, such as gr55, gp10, Antares units. These require 13 pin pickups in order to make use of alternate tunings.
The Variax 700 Acoustic is self contained.

Does it need to look like an acoustic? You can also look at a James Tyler Variax if you are ok with an electric guitar. They have many acoustic guitar models, and have dedicated knobs which allow you to store 10 custom tunings on.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

dreamsinger

#4
Quote from: Smash on November 13, 2015, 08:52:10 AM
Find a seconghand Variax 700 acoustic - alternate tunings on the fly and good collection of guitar models. Sadly no longer made.

Thanks! I've kept an eye out for a Variax 700. Few were made and it's rare to see one for sale. I'm also not certain that the Variax can be programmed for oddball Hedges tunings. Another fly in the ointment is that I have big hands that can't "scrunch" enough to play clean on a 1 11/16" nut. That knocked the Multiac out of the running too. My friend, Mark Arnquist (excellent luthier and repair guy, BTW) has the only thing that I think will work for me from the guitar side. I'm more concerned with finding the right synth.

dreamsinger

#5
I just scored a deal on a VG8EX. I mentioned this to a luthier friend and told him that I was still in a quandry about finding an appropriate guitar to drive it with. It turns out that he has a run of semi-solid (chambered, no sound hole) thin body guitars that he originally put a large transducer film under the top. It looks like the RMC pickups could be incorporated easily enough. They look a lot more like an acoustic guitar that a Multiac and for those who are picky about neck width there could be a choice.

admin

Most VG-8 / VG-8EX owners using Piezo guitars will benefit from the RMC Hi Pass filter circuit modification - details are here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13078.0 


VG-8 SUBSONIC SENSITIVITY REDUCTION MODIFICATION

WARNING - Not all the info you need to safely carry out suggested tasks is included as this would take up inordinate space. We are presuming you know all about Static Safety Precautions, RHoS compliance, and the WEE directive. Even so we strongly discourage the wearing of nylon clothes when using a soldering iron. Do not play the guitar in the bath.


RMC VG-8 INPUT FILTER MODIFICATION
This VG-8 modification is designed to remove the subsonic (very low frequency) content of the separate string signals (produced primarily by piezo hex pickups). This helps the VG-8 perform more cleanly and without puffyness, especially when using the detuning (pitch shifting) functions. There aren't any negative side effects to this modification. Everything works the way it should, only better. Subsonic filtering is like what you may have in your stereo for the turntable preamp. It removes non-musical, mechanical vibrations that are detected along with the desired sounds and relieves the signal processing circuitry of a lot of useless, and sometimes unwanted, work. The result is cleaner attack transients. This modification consists of changing capacitor values in the analog "front-end" of the VG-8, which attenuates subsonic frequencies which can otherwise enter freely and upset the performance of the overdrive and pitch shifter in some cases. By changing 12 electrolytic capacitors in the analog front end, frequencies 25Hz and below are significantly reduced and the low-frequency saturation symptoms go away. This can be accomplished by a competent electronic repair technician. The VG-8 modification consists of changing these electronic components and testing the modified unit for proper function. - RMC / Richard McClish.

RMC don't perform this modification any more. We simply provide the recipe. Please find it below. The VG-88 has similar circuitry and can be modified in a similar manner. The component numbers are different however, we are trying to locate this info, so be extra careful if attempting this from scratch.

There are 12 capacitors to change in order to reduce the subsonic sensitivity of the VG-8 and VG-88. This helps to significantly reduce the objectionable thumping and/or momentary distortion which may occur in the amplified sound when the string tension and/or the pickup to string distance is changed abruptly.

The same problem typically arises with a GK-2 in proximity of a tremolo bridge. Because the bridge moves up & down with changes in string tension as you move the tremolo arm, this produces objectionable subsonic signal components (which can be much larger than the useful music signals) and adversely influence the A/D conversion in the VG-8.

The mod is a simple capacitor substitution which is of no consequence in the audio spectrum. It simply helps to maintain the A/D converter in its linear mode of operation.

The following caps refer to the VG8 only:

1) Replace C25, C29, C33, C37, C41 & C45 (all 10uF) with 0.22uF (metal film, electrolytic or ceramic) capacitors.

2) Replace C201, C202, C203, C204, C205 & C206 (all 10uF) with 0.33uF (metal film, electrolytic or ceramic) capacitors.

The Roland p.c.board has legend information which makes locating the components easy. The work takes usually less than an hour to perform.

The parts are worth less than US$10.

You want capacitors somewhere between 16V and 50V (it's mostly a size issue) and you want radial caps (with both leads at the same end like the originals, since these capacitors are standing vertically on the board).

You have a choice of either a standard aluminum electrolytic or a tantalum electrolytic cap. They both work well. If you just look for something small, it should work fine. This is not a critical application and the portion of sound you're filtering is not in the audio spectrum. Let a competent electronic technician handle the capacitor selection if you have a problem deciding."

Good Luck.


dreamsinger

I decided on Ghost pickups for steel string acoustic guitars which I ordered yesterday. I had briefly considered putting Ghost saddles in my Tele but since I need this thing to "feel" like an acoustic I'm putting that mod off. Both my acoustics are obscenely expensive boutique guitars that I can't bring myself to modify for the pickups so I'm on a hunt for the right platform. A Taylor T5 could work and the Composite Acoustic "X" seems custom made for this. Any suggestions for thin bodied acoustics with a cutaway and a 1 3/4" nut?

Elantric

#8
Just a warning - using a hex GK pickup on a genuine Acoustic guitar may deliver pain if your desire is to use the DSP generated Alternate Tunings from your GK processor in a Live performance  situation. Ive known a few who stuff the acoustic guitar with filler from an old pillow, and place a black plastic blanking cover under  the sound hole, to minimize hearing the natural pitch of the vibrating strings which trigger the hex PU.

Joni Mitchell used solid body guitar when playing Alt Tunings with a Roland VG-8 back in 1996
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9044.0

dreamsinger

Quote from: Elantric on December 04, 2015, 08:03:48 AM
Just a warning - using a hex GK pickup on a genuine Acoustic guitar may deliver pain if your desire is to use the DSP generated Alternate Tunings from your GK processor in a Live performance  situation. Ive known a few who stuff the acoustic guitar with filler from an old pillow, and place a black plastic blanking cover under  the sound hole, to minimize hearing the natural pitch of the vibrating strings which trigger the hex PU.

Joni Mitchell used solid body guitar when playing Alt Tunings with a Roland VG-8 back in 1996
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9044.0

That's why I'm not using the magnetic GK pickup. The individual piezo saddle pickups track better (so I've been told). I may get a GK2A for my Tele just for grins but the acoustic is getting piezos.

admin

#10
QuoteThe individual piezo saddle pickups track better (so I've been told).

its a rumor / fallacy

Typically on a vibrating top Acoustic guitar,your battle with be adjacent string cross-talk

read


* * Hex Pickup Type Advice. (GK-3 vs Piezo)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5043.msg34288#msg34288 

Now_And_Then

 I had a Variax 700 Acoustic. I really like a few of its models but I eventually got rid of it. The problem I had was that sustained notes (i.e. strum a chord and let it ring) would decay in a very unnatural manner which was, aesthetically, very jarring and unpleasant. It was very unmusical to my ears. For me, that was enough to deprive the 700 Acoustic of any value that it would have otherwise had.

I am pretty sure that the Variax 500 electric that I had, had the same problem (although I don't remember exactly.)

If the decay problem represents a potential problem for you, you might want to test-drive a Variax before you lay down your money.

dreamsinger

It's looking like I'll have to build (or have built) this quasi acoustic guitar. I can see where too much "vibrating top" could be a problem but why is that not a problem on the Multiac? Godin tells me the top on the nylon string version won't stand up to steel strings which suggests that it has a thin top without much bracing. I'm thinking that a chambered body and a thick top will mitigate excess top vibration. Part of the problem is that I need this to *feel* like an acoustic with wider string spacing and phosphor bronze strings. I don't think any of the magnetic hexaphonic pickups will accommodate wider string spacing at the bridge and phosphor bronze strings don't do well over magnets.

Elantric

Review the string spacing of mag hex Pickups here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=41


Some have installed a Gk-3 on a Variax Acoustic 700 - which is actually a solidbody guitar that has a larger  / wider neck like a 1950's Martin ( which is also rather like a '57 les paul junior) its not a whimpy thin neck
 


Read
GK-3 PU on Acoustic  - thread here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=670.25

dreamsinger

#14
Few Variax 700 Acoustic's were made and trying to find one used will likely take longer than I want to wait. To confuse the issue further I found a few YouTubes;


GuitarBuilder

I'll be the contrarian here: I think you're going to end up spending lots of money and not be happy with the result.

It sounds like your primary wish is to have quick alternate tunings.  IMHO the Tronical tuners would be the way to go for you.  Their latest Plus system is extremely fast and can be as accurate as you wish.  It's a simple, reversible installation with no damage to your guitar.  I installed a set on my Fender GC-1 and find it much more useful than any alternate tunings in the GR-55 or SY300, because the natural guitar sound is completely in sync.

And you get to keep doing what you do now with your present guitar(s).

On the other hand, if it's synth sounds you're after I would recommend the above coupled with an SY300.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

dreamsinger

The problem with the Tronicals is that there are a number of oddball tunings that really require differing string gauges. Granted, it's not a problem for most guitarists but if you're doing Hedges and you can't afford a stage tech to hand you pre-tuned guitars appropriately strung you're not left with many choices.

mapperboy

Quote from: dreamsinger on December 05, 2015, 12:11:15 AM
It's looking like I'll have to build (or have built) this quasi acoustic guitar. I can see where too much "vibrating top" could be a problem but why is that not a problem on the Multiac? Godin tells me the top on the nylon string version won't stand up to steel strings which suggests that it has a thin top without much bracing. I'm thinking that a chambered body and a thick top will mitigate excess top vibration. Part of the problem is that I need this to *feel* like an acoustic with wider string spacing and phosphor bronze strings. I don't think any of the magnetic hexaphonic pickups will accommodate wider string spacing at the bridge and phosphor bronze strings don't do well over magnets.
I have a Godin Multiac ACS SA Nylon (not the 'slim' version which has a 1 11/16 nut) with a 1 7/8 nut which is essentially a solid body classical.  I believe Godin still offers the Grand Concert SA which has a fairly deeply chambered and hence thicker depth body, same RMC hex pickup and preamp. When I sat at a local shop and tested for an hour before choosing the thinner ACS SA I found that responds very much like a quiet acoustic classical.  I definitely think the much thicker tops on both will sustain acoustic steel string tensions. I've strung mine with 'folk' Silk and Steel quite a few times for a bit brighter top end but am currently settled on D'Addario composites which livens up the typical deadish 3rd string on most classical sets I ever tried. Bottom line for me is that my ACS SA is that it is now my 1st call guitar as its a breeze on my fingerpick'n fingers, and rather fat fretting hand and I can drag out almost any sound I choose going through a GR-55 which I sometimes simultaneous feed to a VG-99 through the 'guitar' out on the GR-55.   Having said all that I assume you are questioning the mounting of a mag PU on another Godin/La Patrie/Patrick&Simon full body classical and stringing it with acoustic steel or ?  I've also mounted a GK-3 on a Taylor 314CE Nylon (with double sided 3M tape) and strung it with Silk and Steel (checked with Taylor and the bracing on those is the same as their steel string models) and with its wider almost classical nut with is also wonderful to play.  But I eventually concluded that because I never successfully developed a non-destructive mounting plate (I wanted the bracket to be tied to the Taylor end pin but the end pin is engineered to form part of the battery hatch cover and doesn't just screw on and off like most end pins) that taping the Roland switching/jack unit to the Taylor top was going to eventually damage it over the long term and screw up my potential resale value.  Still working on a better non-destructive mounting system.  However when it was mounted the Roland mag pickup definitely affords a whole different tone from the strings (but requires at least Silk and Steel to activate the PU) much snappier and brighter.  However by fiddling with the myriad of hex set up options on using the Godin through the GR-55 I can pretty much match the Taylor with a GK-3.  BTW RMC is CONSTANTLY tweaking the Preamp used by Godin in production and I found out that my 1999 built Multiac ACS SA had a much older version of the Preamp (the US Godin factory actually used a pre 1995 Preamp that they still had in stock, I confirmed this with Godin) which didn't have some string phase and cross-talk design fixes that the post 1995 RMC Preamps had.  So if you're buy a used Multiac SA check the year and Preamp by serial number with RMC. Richard McClish is very prompt and helpful to help figure it out what is mounted.  How does one know when Caveat Emptor is needed in buying these high-tech instruments?   
"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

FreeTime

Unless you play at a volume that drowns out the acoustic guitar (or use headphones) you will hear the standard tuning with the alternate tuning at the same time, not a pleasant sound. Also things just don't resonate the same with synthetic tunings, an acoustic guitar actually tuned to what you're playing just rings nicer in my opinion.

I'm using a FTP on an acoustic with phosphor bronze strings and I get 30-50% output when strumming fairly hard, even finger-picking gives me some output, good for accompaniment to the guitar.

From my experience with the Tronical system, while the wow-factor (before it became main-stream) of a guitar tuning itself is there along with the speed of getting to alternate tunings, also being able to retune quickly if breaking a string on a floating tremolo ... I found that it killed tone after a few aggressive tunings (using Cobalt strings). This is on a Stratocaster going straight into a decent amp. While you might argue that  people that dive-bomb a lot don't kill tone quickly, usually that style of playing goes along with hyper distortion where not a lot of the original nuances remain.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: mapperboy on December 05, 2015, 11:01:55 AM
How does one know when Caveat Emptor is needed in buying these high-tech instruments?

Easy to know: it's always needed.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: FreeTime on December 05, 2015, 12:07:02 PM
From my experience with the Tronical system, while the wow-factor (before it became main-stream) of a guitar tuning itself is there along with the speed of getting to alternate tunings, also being able to retune quickly if breaking a string on a floating tremolo ... I found that it killed tone after a few aggressive tunings (using Cobalt strings).

I fail to see how the tuners had any effect on "killing the tone"........perhaps trying some weird tunings that overextend strings, but you need to blame that on the player, not the tuners!  ;D ;D ;D
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

dreamsinger

I have a pair of what arguably might the nicest sounding acoustics on the planet. MIDI gear will never touch them literally or figuratively. In a typical live environ this sound quality won't be discernible. I've found that it doesn't take much volume to make the unamplified strings wash out. A semi-solid like the Variax or Multiac shouldn't have the problem at all. If you're running .054 to .012 strings some tunings are almost too low for the .064 that Hedges uses, some tunings go up further than I think prudent. I think this will work.

Quote from: FreeTime on December 05, 2015, 12:07:02 PM
Unless you play at a volume that drowns out the acoustic guitar (or use headphones) you will hear the standard tuning with the alternate tuning at the same time, not a pleasant sound. Also things just don't resonate the same with synthetic tunings, an acoustic guitar actually tuned to what you're playing just rings nicer in my opinion.

dreamsinger

Quote from: mapperboy on December 05, 2015, 11:01:55 AM
I have a Godin Multiac ACS SA Nylon (not the 'slim' version which has a 1 11/16 nut) with a 1 7/8 nut which is essentially a solid body classical.  I believe Godin still offers the Grand Concert SA which has a fairly deeply chambered and hence thicker depth body, same RMC hex pickup and preamp. When I sat at a local shop and tested for an hour before choosing the thinner ACS SA I found that responds very much like a quiet acoustic classical.  [end/quote]

I asked Godin if the tops on the Multiac Nylon would stand up to steel strings to which they answered emphatically "NO". I'm not sure I "get" why as it's basically a chambered solid body, right? I've never seen one in the flesh. 

FreeTime

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on December 05, 2015, 12:27:55 PM
I fail to see how the tuners had any effect on "killing the tone"

The strings lost their brilliance after a dozen or so tightenings/slackings and playing them that way. So much emphasis is put on tone, from putting your strings in the freezer or boiling them ... ultimately its a loss of tensile strength ... perhaps its subjective.