GR-55 - Make your GK-3 "Guitar/Mix/Synth" Switch work (step by step)

Started by Elantric, March 09, 2011, 08:19:22 AM

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Elantric

Just know that the Roland GK interface design is flawed.

The GK-3 Three way switch and Roland US-20 A/B/Y Selector  / routers ALL rely on the GK-3 "GK-VOL" pot to be assigned to Patch Volume

If you deviate and get creative, and re-assign GK-VOL to control something other than PATCH VOLUME - that's when bugs manifest.

I always put on suitable background music to sing along when creating Control Assignments  - like

The Clash "Know Your Rights"

but I change the lyrics to suit the operation I'm doing:

"You have the Right to Re-assign the GK-VOL pot,  - as long as you're not Dumb enough to actually try it."
------------

http://www.rolandus.com/support/knowledge_base/?HD_ID=105241

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Hearing Your Normal (Guitar) Pickup Signal

If you want to hear your guitar's original pickup sound in the GR-55, you need to activate the NORMAL PICKUP switch within each patch. Here's how.

1. Choose a patch to edit.

2. Press the EDIT button.

3. Press PAGE left until you select the TONE menu.

4. Press the down-cursor button to select NORMAL PICKUP.

5. Turn the dial to highlight the NORMAL PICKUP box.

6. Set the GK select switch to the MIX position.

Note: If you want to hear only the guitar sound, de-select the PCM1, PCM2, and Model boxes as well.

If desired, press WRITE to save the new setting as a User patch, and then repeat the process for any patch in which you want to hear the original pickup sound.


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Inside the GR-55 is a perfectly suitable DSP for real time Roland COSM Amp /FX simulation rather like a Boss GT-100  or Boss ME-50, they apparently did not want to kill sales of those products with every GR-55 sale, so they omit installing a normal 1/4" Instrument Input Jack on GR-55.

(FWIW - Here's how to install your own  normal 1/4" Instrument Input Jack on GR-55)
  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3994.msg27011#msg27011

This thread you are reading here explains how to enable "Normal Guitar Pickups" and make the GK-3 Guitar/Mix/Synth three-way switch work with the GR-55 on every User patch with only a 13 pin cable connection to the GR-55 (sadly only 3 factory patches have Normal PU Input working - and those cant be edited!)


But remember the GR-55 does not have a "True Bypass" circuit, the above strategy assumes you enjoy using the GR-55's DSP for real time Roland COSM Amp /FX simulation.

But most GR-55 owners with ears who desire the most flexibility run both a 1/4" cable to a Volume pedal and their normal Amp Rig , and another Roland GK 13 pin  cable to the GR-55. Use  a separate Volume pedal and GR-55 Expression pedal to Control the Mix of Normal PU & Amp tone or GR-55 Synth Tone.

====================
Make your "Guitar/Mix/Synth" Switch work with GR-55 Work (step by step)
The first headache every new VG-99 / GR-55 owner may experience is getting the guitar mounted three way Guitar/Mix/GK Synth switch on his 13 pin preamp by Roland, RMC, Ghost, etc  to workand allow the Normal pickups to heard !
To debug achieving Normal Guitar PU Sound with one 13 pin cable feeding the GR-55 , First Try these Factory GR-55 Presets which already have the normal PU enabled  - your Normal Guitar pickups should be heard when you move the guitar mounted three way"Guitar/mix/Synth" switch to Guitar and have Guitar volume turned up.
On the GR-55, Select the "Lead" style. Then select these presets:
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-1 For Normal PU L1 = for Normal PU L1
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-2 For Normal PU L2 = for Normal PU L2
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-3 For Normal PU L3 = for Normal PU L3

If you do not hear your normal guitar sound using these patches above, there is a problem with either your guitar, GK-3 Installation, or you forgot to use the short 1/4" cable between your guitar and the GK-3 1/4" Input jack, or you have  a bad 13 pin cable - or there is a GR-55 Control Assignment which is blocking the Normal Guitar Audio



Roland ships recent GK13 processors (VG-99, GR-55) with half baked "Factory presets" that lack proper support for GK-3 Three way mix switch. This is a major pain and every VG-99/GR-55 user who wants the GK-3 Three way mix switch to work must manually reprogram EVERY PRESET!
   
Roland ships great hardware bogged down by very sloppy Burned into ROM Factory presets that frankly should never have existed, Id gladly give them all up to free up more memory space for my own presets that allow the GK-3 Three way mix switch to actually work for Normal pickups too.

==

Make GK-3 "Guitar" Switch position work with GR-55 Work (step by step).

You  need the short 1/4" cable connected between your normal guitar output and GK-3 Guitar Input.


#1 Enable the GR-55 to output the processed Normal Guitar sounds


Roland US Knowledge Base articles on the GR-55 (July 2012)
http://www.rolandus.com/support/knowledge_base/?HD_ID=105241

--
Hearing Your Normal (Guitar) Pickup Signal

If you want to hear your guitar's original pickup sound in the GR-55, you need to activate the NORMAL PICKUP switch within each patch. Here's how.

1. Choose a patch to edit.

2. Press the EDIT button.

3. Press PAGE left until you select the TONE menu.

4. Press the down-cursor button to select NORMAL PICKUP.

5. Turn the dial to highlight the NORMAL PICKUP box.

6. Set the GK select switch to the MIX position.

Note: If you want to hear only the guitar sound, de-select the PCM1, PCM2, and Model boxes as well.

If desired, press WRITE to save the new setting as a User patch, and then repeat the process for any patch in which you want to hear the original pickup sound.




Step#2 Enable the GK-3 three-way "Guitar/Mix/GK(Synth) switch to work.


<paults wrote>
Make GK-3 "Guitar" Switch position work with GR-55

It didn't turn out to be that simple, if you want the three way switch to work:

1) Go to System

PEDAL/GK CTL (enter)

Tab over to VOL
    If you want to be able to hear the normal guitar when your switch is in the "GUITAR" position, change GK VOL to "TONE VOLUME", and turn NORMAL PU "OFF".  With the switch in MIX, you'll hear both the GK knob output, and your normal guitar output, with independent control for each.  In GK position, you'll just hear COSM/PCM sounds, and in GUITAR, just the normal guitar.

The other advantage to "TONE VOLUME" is it lets the guitar models be much more responsive and expressive. 

The GK settings can also be changed per patch, but this is based on the factory settings. I'm used to having my VG set up this way, so this setting may stay global for me.

Most folks will want to reprogram every GR-55 Patch with all the above settings, to ensure the GK-3 three way switch works on every patch used live.
None of the factory patches allow Normal Guitar, unless otherwise stated.

Roland Canada has a good video that describes how to enable the Gk-3 three way Switch
GR55 - GK Switch Setup




Next post is related to the above,
* Roland US-20 A/B Selector BUG (Importance of GK-VOL Assignment)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3494.0
   

--
For the GR-55, you might want to try these factory patches that all use the normal guitar pickup combined with synth sounds:

30-1 for Normal PU L1
30-2 for Normal PU L2
30-3 for Normal PU L3

They all use the normal pickup, so you can hear the normal pickup processed through the GR-55. I did a demo using 30-1 to demonstrate using the normal guitar pickup with the GK-3, check out the clip around 3:20:



---

Next time you are debugging "why can't I hear my Normal PU's in my VG-99 / GR-55 / Gp-10 using one 13 pin cable   - be sure nothing is connected to the 1/4" outputs jacks

Just wanted to point out that Godin LGXSA and xtSA 1/4" Output jacks feature the similar circuit as the Fender Roland Ready / GC-1 Strat below.

the Fender Roland Ready Strat / Roland GC-1 Strat's 1/4" output jack is a unique switching jack - The goal is to have a "stock Strat" when using the 1/4" output jack  - so anytime you insert a 1/4" plug into the GC-1's 1/4" "Normal PU Output"  jack  - this isolates removes the normal passive Strat Electronics signal output from entering into the GK Internal active buffer (which might load down the passive PU's and reduce high frequencies) and removes the ability to send normal mag PU tone down Pin #7 of the 13 pin Cable



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg73532#msg73532

727lawrence

This just saved me a bunch of time and heartburn. Thanks! This is the most useful forum I've had the pleasure to be a part of  ;D

neophytte



jwhitcomb3

Along this theme, I have several patches set up where the GK Vol just controls the model tone volume, while the EXP controls the PCM volume (with CTL toggling between two PCM tones). What I didn't realize until reading this thread is how nicely the GK switch works with this setup (I'd pretty much left the switch on "mix" and forgotten about it).


jgaabor

Thank you for the help.

However the setting is still not clear for me.

Sometimes works, sometimes not...

jwhitcomb3

Quote from: Elantric on March 09, 2011, 08:19:22 AM
<paults wrote>
The other advantage to "TONE VOLUME" is it lets the guitar models be much more responsive and expressive. 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Thanks.

paults

Quote from: jgaabor on April 06, 2011, 06:04:58 AM
Thank you for the help.

However the setting is still not clear for me.

Sometimes works, sometimes not...

If you do this in Global, and set it to override Patch settings, it should work the same for all patches that include "nornal" guitar.  But, any patch that doesn't include nornal guitar (nearly all of them) will react as if you hadn't changed anything. Synth and Mix will both be the GR, with no normal guitar, and Guitar position on the switch will have no output (because no guitar signal is present in most factory patches)

paults

Quote from: jwhitcomb3 on April 06, 2011, 08:12:53 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Thanks.

If the GK knob is set to Patch Volume, turning it up and down is like you are the sound engineer, and changing the level of the guitar in the PA system. It is at the end of the signal chain. The "guitar into the amp" is turned up all the way, all the time. You need separate sounds for solos, or you add a stompbox model, etc.   

When it is set to Tone Volume, it is at the beginning of the chain, like your actual guitar knob.  Turning the knob up drives the input of the amp model harder, giving you the same gain and tonal changes you would expect from an amplifier. When you back off the volume, the amp cleans up some (or a lot).  I don't have to use separate sounds for lead and rhythm guitar, I just turn up the knob. 

The models are very responsive to playing dynamics when you do it this way, and you are playing through something with enough clean power to respond to the transient peaks. ( I use a Bose L1, with a single subwoofer)

I tried to love every high end Line 6 amp, the H+K Switchblade, tube rack gear from everyone you can think of.  I always went back to My 50 watt Marshall Jubilee Half stack. The other rigs were more versatile than just gain / clean, but I could never get any of them to feel as good.

Then, the VG-99/Bose came along a couple of years ago, and it still feels just as dynamic, sounds just as good. The 55 just needs some minor tweaks, and then I will be gigging with it.

jwhitcomb3

Thanks for the explanation. I had set some patches assigning the model pickup volume to the GK knob to similar effect, but this is simpler (and doesn't gobble up an assign). Lots of ways to configure this thing!

wstagner

I have the 3 way GK switch working now.
The problem I have now is that when I switch patches with the buttons, the VOLUME of each patch varies greatly UNTIL I turn the GK knob or move the pedal.  Is there some setting I can change so I don't have to do this?  GEESH....this thing is way 2 flexible. :'(

Brent Flash

Quote from: wstagner on June 02, 2011, 06:20:18 PM
I have the 3 way GK switch working now.
The problem I have now is that when I switch patches with the buttons, the VOLUME of each patch varies greatly UNTIL I turn the GK knob or move the pedal.  Is there some setting I can change so I don't have to do this?  GEESH....this thing is way 2 flexible. :'(
"ASSIGN HOLD" is the setting that you are looking for. "ON" carries the controller over from patch to patch and "OFF" brings it up as it was saved.

jwhitcomb3

Also, make sure you don't have multiple controllers assigned to tone volume, even if they have different sources selected.

wstagner

Thanks for the help.  I made it a SYSTEM setting because this is how I want it to ALWAYS work.

There sure is a need for a 2 hr instructional DVD for this thing!

tekrytor

Using my Godin Freeway SA, and following the procedure in Elantric's first message of this thread, I still don't get the normal mag pickups output if switched in on the guitar. I thought this was a global method.

Do I still need to enable Normal PU on each individual patch?

Thanks!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

paults

Yes -the Normal guitar needs to be enabled in each patch you may be using it with. 


TommyJay

Sorry for my stupidy here and hopefully my question has to do with this posting.. ??? 
So just to show you what I am using.

I have a Line 6 Variax and Roland GK-3 pickup attached to it...which I really love and that is now plugged into my GR-55.  When I play (not pro anymore just at my local pub jam sessions) and am too old to be lugging the heavy amps anymore so I just take the output of my GR-55 and patch into the pub PA system...... works great for sound and great for my old back...lol

Now here is where I am confused or can't figure out the how to....

I would like to just have the Variax guitar by-pass the internal GR-55 amp so that it is playing straight into the PA system.  I have been searching for some time now and found that it is supposedly possible to by-pass the normal guitar output so that it will go directly into the PA but still can't find the how to do it.  Now I know as an alternative that I can just run the Variax directly into the PA with a separate guitar cable from my guitar out instead of into the GK-3 input but that means running another cable (two (GR-55 stereo out and then a third one from my guitar).  Inputs to the PA are sometimes not available so I need to just have it so that I take a mono out of the GR-55 or if I get lucky a stereo output.   

I might mention also that I like the ability or flexiblity of the GKS1 switch on the GK-3 to allow me to switch between GR-55 sounds and then straight Variax sound or mix when needed.


So then how do I have my normal pickup by-pass the GR-55 mix or amp to have a direct normal guitar out to the PA.  BTW I get a great sound from my Variax straight into the PA.

Again sorry for my stupidy here.   :-[ :-[

Tommy

gumtown

All four tone sources (PCM1, PCM2, Modeled, NormalPU) have a routing option to select eithe MOD effects, AMP, or ByPass.
If you select the Normal PU tone to route to ByPass, this will send the Varax signal directly to the Reverb, Delay, Chorus paralleled effects, and bypass the Amp or MOD effects.
This will send the Variax to the L/R outputs and be mixed with the other tone sources, but you can still apply Reverb, Chorus and Delay id required.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

TommyJay

Now that is the answer I was looking for.  Thank you gumtown.
Now please correct this Newbie if I am wrong.

I go to "EDIT" on any User Patch, then select "EFFECT" then "Enter", page left to "STRUCT", curser down to "PICKUP" and then select either "BYPS", "AMP" , or "MFX"?

So I believe this is where you are referring too, correct.   Now one more question, is there a way to globalize this or make it permanent for all patches?  If not I can live with this.   Actually now that I think about it, doing this per patch is really more versatile with a lot more possibilities.

Thanks again  gumtown.
Tommy

TommyJay

Oh just one more thing gumtown.  I wanted to say thanks for the great work you have done for everyone with your GR-55 Floorboard editor.  My appologies for saying this here in the wrong thread but since you have been monitoring this thread with you above assistance to me, I thought I would just say thank you here.

You have made life so simple for us newbies and advanced users too. 

Thanks again,
Tommy   :) :)

arun

HI Guys,
             user patch-11-2 E Piano on the gr55. This user patch has my favourite Jazz Piano Fender Rhodes sound but is real hard to keep under control without hearing notes coming from the fret board when one takes your hand  -how does one hear only what you want to play-too many notes are heard-
How can I find Velocity settings ?
Thanks guys -APPRECIATE THIS Vguitar forum-all new to me -these electronics! :)

fedello

Please, i have done what elantric said, but the problem is that when i go to the patch, i must turn off the pcm and moduling and turn on the normal pu, to listen the pickup only. My question is how i could establish default all the patches  to change to normal pu on and pcm and moduling off, when i switch the gk3 to guitar, or perhaps i always have to go to the patch and turn on the normal pu? i think this is weird.

Thanks

Elantric

QuoteMy question is how i could establish default all the patches  to change to normal pu on and pcm and moduling off, when i switch the gk3 to guitar, or perhaps i always have to go to the patch and turn on the normal pu? i think this is weird.

Correct! You must modify each patch to enable the Normal pickup, then save each patch individually one at a time.

Yes this Roland decision for the GR-55 was VERY BAD!   It is a royal pain for most users.


Realize you must re-program each GR-55 patch to support Normal PU. If you also want your 3way guitar/mix/synth switch to work also, then the GK Volume pot must also be mapped to specific   target parameters , like Patch Volume or Tone Volume. (read Paults tips above)

This can present problems because bulk of the GR-55 factory patches have remapped the GK Volume pot to other GR-55 parameters like Amp Gain etc. and this actually "breaks" the functionality of the 3-way guitar/mix/synth switch. It also breaks the functionality of the Roland US-20 A/B selector.

Design choices Roland made in 1988 are to blame.

Many GR-55 users work around these limitations and run two cables from the guitar.
* One 13 pin cable for Synth only
* One 1/4" guitar cord for normal guitar.
Use  a typical Guitar rig setup, and use separate floor volume pedals to select Synth or normal guitar.

This also opens up the flexible remapping of the GK Volume pot to many other uses, like reverb depth or delay Slap back  time, or tremolo speed.

Your local Car stereo shop sells flexible cable management overlays to minimize your stage cable spaghetti.


-


Gumtown wrote>
Is the GK-Vol (GK Volume Function) setting on "Patch Volume"?
If using the GR-55Floorboard editor, look in the System > System Pedal and GK settings.



If the GL Vol is set to "Tone Volume" and the EXP pedal is set to "Tone Volume", they are both fighting each other.
Try setting the GK Vol to "Patch Volume" and the problem should go away, although it will control the normal pickup level too.

What is happening is the "Tone Volume" parameter is being set initially by either the EXP pedal or the GK Vol, depending on another system setting for "Pedal Assign Hold",  with it 'on' the EXP pedal position is carried through to the next patch on patch change.
With it off, the tone volume is per initial patch setting, where ever that may be for any given patch.
Try toggling the "assign hold" setting to see if that gives a desired result.

The guitar/mix/synth switch, when in the 'synth only' position will tell the GR-55 internally to set the tone volume on to it's GK Vol setting (depending on system settings) and it physically disables the normal pickup signal at the guitar.
and in the 'guitar only' position set the GK vol level to '0' and enable only the normal pickup signal.
Depending on how the GR-55 is setup, the GK switch might only seem to disable the normal pickups signal.

prsrick

I have a Godin XTSA.   I can get the guitar-mix-sync switch working following the instructions.   However,  I noticed that if
I switch from MIX or Sync position to nomal guitar  or if I switch from patch to another patch.  The normal guitar sound will only work if I move the expression pedal just a bit and then it will work until you switch again.   I looked at all the settings for control hold,  expression assign etc etc,  did not find any problem.  What is wrong? 

Appreciate your help.

Rick

Elantric

As Brent wrote above:

Try this:
Quote"ASSIGN HOLD" is the setting that you are looking for. "ON" carries the controller over from patch to patch and "OFF" brings it up as it was saved.