RC-300 Tempo change

Started by keenanj, September 01, 2013, 05:26:32 PM

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keenanj

Folks
Does anyone have video or audio of the RC300 tempo change. I want to see if this is actually a real thing I could use during a gig. If anyone has a demo, that would be great.
The Jamman does it well if a) you don't mind bending over and tapping with your pinky b) You don't care about guessing what the tempo might wind up being.
I am considering the RC300 and this is a major plus if it is real.
THANKYOU
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

#1
I guess first of all what kind of tempo change are you looking for?  Increasing the tempo of the entire collection of loops up or down?  By how much in terms of tempo?

There's a few ways you can set it up: set up a ring/tip switch into the CTL2 or CTL3 input and change the tap tempo using the footswitch to alter the tempo or you could set up the expression pedal to increase/decrease the tempo of the loops as well. 

If you don't have any other external footswitches on hand you could also change it so the effects switch is your tap tempo for this because of the ridiculous amount of assigns in the unit.

One thing I'd say is that EXTREMES of speed, very slow and very fast away from the default tempo might cause artifacting (example - your 40 BPM loop you've increased to 220 bpm or your 120 bpm loop you decreased to 48 bpm) but if you're just adding a reasonable tempo it should work - again it depends on what you're looping?  Just your guitar?  Full band mix? 

Anyway, let me know what you think.  I know Per Haar's video shows him using tap tempo changing the tempo of a given guitar delay sound but he's controlling it with his hands and he could easily have done that with his feet if he chose to set it up that way.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

keenanj

Tempo change degree:
I was thinking about 2x and 1/2x, but building to them AND getting their immediately. I do a lot of jam stuff (Grateful Dead, Moe, Umphree, Allmans) so building up is a big thing. In these cases, I am playing a fmaj7 and just looping a thumping bass and highhat/snare over 4 measures, no changes. I would like to speed it up to build the solo. All loops would increase like a band getting momentum. In the jazz case, an instant pedal push into 2x or 1/2 would be great.
I want at a minimum bass, drums, rhythm (eg piano, organ, guitar) to all speed up. I want to have it be binomial and continuous as an option.
Issues
a) Pitch can't change. I think that's a no brainer, but...
b) On the jamman, I'm not kidding, there is no way to do it with your foot. BUT the bigger issue is you have to start the change with matching the tap tempo of what you have in the original loop. Since it's really hard to know what jamman thinks is a whole vs half note, this is really difficult. If the expression pedal on the rc300 can be used, that would solve that issue. If I could heel or toe rock slowly (over 30-45seconds), that would be an awesome build. That also gives the option of instant throw into the original tempo.
c) Recording after tempo change. Once changed in terms of tempo, the jamman is done. You can't add. It would be nice to add/delete after the tempo change.

I looked at Per Haas, didn't see any tempo changes but that dude is awesome. Wow!

PS- Best (intentional) change in a rock song?
Foghat/SlowRide

The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

Cricket

I would suggest using one of the memory assigns, and assigning memory tempo to EXP (1) , target min as slow as you would want, target max as fast as you would like.  Then, you could increase the tempo gradually or just floor the pedal to get there right away.

Aliensporebomb is right on about the artifacting, though the RC won't allow tempo changes that deviate too much from the original tempo... it will tell you too fast/too slow and just won't let you do it.  However, you can still get a fair variation in tempo.

As with transposing, sometimes it sounds good, sometimes not... more extreme changes are more likely to enter "the ugly zone." 

keenanj

OK, for me to do this I only need one available memory slot and $549.00.

Jamman for sale.
julian

The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

Cricket

Try one of these guys...

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Boss-RC-300-Loop-Station-Guitar-Effect-Pedal-/133852959

That's how I got mine.   A lot of online dealers say "used" but it's really just "open box" to get around pricing.  Wasn't a damn thing out of the plastic on mine.

aliensporebomb

#6
I figured out the easiest way would be to use the expression pedal (the built in one) to vary the tempo by something like 20-30 bpm.  Anything further and it gets kind of comical (some drum beats sound silly when played too fast). 

You could use an external expression pedal but.....why pay for something you already have unless you really need it?

I've been meaning to post the audio example I came up with.  Stay tuned.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

keenanj

30 bpm. Wow, that is exactly 30bpm more than I can do now, so I'm not complaining. As a jam band / jazz guy, it's a good thing to vary. Hopefully I can get this to work as I like

I'll buy it-open box. I got my gr-55 used with not a single issue.

Time to buy this thing. Thanks.
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

#8
Here's a demo - it's the drum machines, cymbals, bass guitar, texture keyboards, and one rhythm guitar line from the song from my 2010 album "This is Aliensporebomb" - the song is called "Tinfoil Hat". 



When I copied the basic track into the RC-300 the looper thought the tempo of the track was 144 bpm but that seems high to me.  Don't go by what it says, go by how it sounds.

So I start speeding it up and slowing it down.  Where I go to extremes on the low end you can hear some weirdness but it mostly sounds pretty good to me. 

I suspect a loop I created in the machine would actually work better since this was recorded on a DAW several years ago and I just printed the multichannel audio to a 44.1 khz 16-bit audio track and copied it to the looper then recorded a high-bitrate MP3 from the looper while it was playing and I was adjusting speed.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

shawnb

#9
I jam with buddies most weekends.  I got the RC300 so I can track my drummer if/when he changes tempo. 

Yes it works.  Yes, with a big tempo change the sound quality drops significantly; however, it won't be the only instrument playing, will it?  Very hard to tell when the band plays.   

I really thought I'd be using this a lot.  But personally I found that it was kinda difficult and distracting to go back & make it track.  If the drummer changes tempo, it doesn't sound so good while your looper is out of sync & you're trying to bring it back.  I found that using the looper while jamming works best if the drummer follows YOUR tempo.  Playing very sparsely helps a lot; he can year you. 

YMMV of course!   

One more note - I think a tap tempo approach is easier to match your drummer's tempo than using an exp pedal.  I don't use the FX, so I used an assign to make the FX pedal another tap tempo, for those instances I'm using all 3 tracks (hence the STOP pedals are unavailable). 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

keenanj

Alien... That is a smooth track. NICE WORK. I think it sounds awesome. The tempo change should work for what I am doing. I am the only instrument. I am a solo looper. It has been harder and harder to justify the one track jamman thing. I've been doing it around 5 years, usually with a regular band on one side and the solo looper stuff on the other. One thing as most of you know is the lack of metronome out ruins the deal. The jamman had no good way to let anyone know what the rhythm was unless you had it playing through the mains.

The killer though is to unlayer. Say I add keys and vibes and congas using the gr55. To get them off the track I have to step and wait and wait. It's at least 5 seconds. And its not timed. Just having the extra tracks will be a world of difference.

The tempo change is part of making it different. As you guys also know, when I solo loop guitar it gets boring. The gr55 added so much to the live thing. I mean, the audience appreciates a rhythm other than me banging my hand on the strings and looping that. I seriously get applause now for each instrumental solo like an actual jazz band. Changing the tempo is just another element of the gig. If two songs for example change tempo in the night, that is just one more interesting thing to do.

I know what shawnb means about trying to catch up. I actually experience that with the gr55 if the delays are off. its impossible to mate with the exp pedal and tap tempo is the way to go. For the looper, I want the whole song to mellow or speed up, so that's the joy of the exp pedal. I bet if I practice it and find some (eg, it works with hand claps but not the snare) things out, this will be awesome .

It took me a year to really become one with the jamman. I imagine the same will be true with the boss.
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

Just so you know the unlayer isn't completely immediate, it's about two seconds.  I should try to demo that too.

I understand with the Pigtronix it's instant but it does work on the RC-300 and one nice thing about the undo is lets you "unbuild" parts of a loop pretty quickly whereas before with my old looper I'd have monolithic structures built and wasn't sure how I could fade the works (I'd literally drag an audio mixer onstage which was awkward or stop everything abruptly that didn't always work musically).  With the 300 I could just use the expression pedal to fade the works out.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

keenanj

I get the undelete being slower (yes, I've read the RC-300 manual, sick I know). The reason I started this post is that it isn't clear in the manual how the exp pedal can be used and obviously what it really SOUNDS like.

In response to the delay in undo.. If I need to add and delete a section quickly, I can just put it on another track and delete it (using the rc300). So I have hat and snare on 1. If there are sections I want to add and delete and go back to etc... on the beat I can use track 2. You can't do that on the jamman. The solution on the jamman is playing a really loud chord on top of the looping so your audience hopefully doesn't here that the transition wasn't on the beat.

Fading is awesome. No option on the jamman. I've never done it, I can't wait.

In other words, I am deciding to upgrade 7 year old technology to 3 year old. Of course Boss/Roland will put out the perfect looper next year.

I paid about 425 with shipping and tax from Alto.
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

As a demo I recorded a stupid pop song on the 300 where I was switching from part to part to part.  It would be very easy to do verse-chorus-bridge with this unit.  Or, create a chord progression that seems to be the bed of a song and then add a part that dovetails on top that acts as a chorus. 

Strangely, this unit seems to have a very refined audio quality and soundstage.  If you're familiar with the type of production Alan Parsons did - very clean, very stereo and not overly favoring specific frequency ranges that's the sound of the 300. 

I've been doing ambient music with it for the most part but I'm still learning how to make it do it's thing.  The Frippertronics was the icing on the cake so thanks to both shawnb and cricket for that little trick! 



My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

keenanj

I like this


The ability to add a button or more AND another EXP pedal. One pedal for tempo and another for effects or volume. How sweet it that. I also like that you can easily mod the buttons and don't have to buy specific units. I also like that it seems to menu and think a bit like the gr55. Going through the manual and videos, it seems intuitive mainly cause I have gumtowns editor and have gotten good at messing with the gr55.

I gotta check out the Frippertronic stuff. I remember practicing alternate picking at 80bpm for an hour at a time on three notes. There was a big push around the crafty guitarist years. This might be why I never use a pick anymore. HA!

I've talked myself into a frenzy. Can't wait to get it now.
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

sean_b

dude, i can assure you, you will have SO much fun with the rc 300. i have learnt so much from this forum regards the unit. the syph dude put up a vid of him playing the 6 string bass using the rc300, that was the vid that made me go deeper into the possible assign ideas. currently i only use the rc300 as reverb control and delay vocal effects for a 5 piece band but everytime i mess around in the house with it and gr55 i can easily scrub 3-4 hrs from my day.
there is nothing but good times ahead once you get this unit, best of luck with it

keenanj

Ha. This is irony.
I just got it. The place I got it from did overnight. Nice! However, I have a gig today so I can't get to it till tonight. Funny.
The only I can say thus far is a)It's huge b)It's a tank.
I'll update on tempo tomorrow night (usa et). It'll be the first thing I try out.
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

Other things about the RC-300 that are cool:
-Roland says it's a 16-bit 44.1 khz audio looper.
-When using it as an audio interface on my Mac it shows up as a 24-bit 44.1 khz looper.

Sounds quality is better than I was lead to suspect.  All the youtube posters griping about their precious tone being mangled.  They don't know what they're talking about.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

keenanj

I'll post some demos this week. I gigged for the last time with the jamman. I unboxed and worked with the rc300 for a few hours and if anyone is on the fence, do it. The sound quality is noticeably different.
I am working on min/max of the tempo change. It is not intuitive. You'd figure setting the memory bank tempo would solve everything, but alas, no. Like the gr55, I'm sure I'll figure out why... but for now, it's not as easy as I would like.

I do know that once the tempo changes (or anything modulates) you better do what you want and be done. The sound quality changes for sure. It comes back when you clear the memory bank or move to a new memory bank. Even if you go back to the original tempo (or key), it seems like the rc300 raises it and then lowers it back. In other words, you can't get the original sound quality back if you change the tempo. Yes/No?
The answer is to help each other, not hurt each other...
Stevie Ray Vaughan

aliensporebomb

#19
Are you using tap tempo or tempo?  Two different animals.  In my own case I would use tempo change not tap tempo.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.