Aren't there some decent spies around?

Started by ericar123, March 18, 2014, 10:24:40 AM

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ericar123

I work in the car industry and no matter how hard companies try, they can't keep new cars a secret. Where are our VG spies?
Even if it were a year or two down the road it would be nice to know if something new is coming. Just ranting :)

Elantric

#1
QuoteI work in the car industry and no matter how hard companies try, they can't keep new cars a secret. Where are our VG spies?

Most have been dispatched or terminated or now un-employable in the M.I. (Music Industry) field

As I recently said in recent discussions with a few friends

QuoteThe current trend at Roland Corp is only show new gear releases within a month of production availability.

Roland announced the VG-99 at Winter NAMM 2007 in January, yet the 1st production run was not available until June 2007. With competition high, most manufacturers (including Roland) have now adopted a policy of only showing new products at Trade shows where actual Dealer orders can be placed and units shipped in 6 weeks - not 6 months. This helps avoid the situation of the competitor hitting the market first, with resulting loss of marketshare.

We live in a world of tightly enforced  Non-Disclosure Agreements! ;)


I had a few good contacts that confirmed new 13 pin gear would arrive at 2014 Muikmesse, but only 2 weeks before the show.

I seriously do not expect the likes of a true "Roland VG-99 Replacement" to arrive from Roland until 2017  - at the earliest, , and even then it may not be as powerful with the same real time user controls and knobs  as the VG-99 had.

IanRamos

#2
Quote"I seriously do not expect the likes of a true "Roland VG-99 Replacement" to arrive from Roland until 2017  - at the earliest, , and even then it may not be as powerful with the same real time user controls and knobs  as the VG-99 had."

how soul crushing sad is that ...

Elantric

Quotehow soul crushing sad is that ...

Its all sales driven - despite the glory of the VG-99, it never sold in significant numbers - nothing like the market success of the Roland GR-55 which easily has sold ten times more actual units. Before the release of the GR-55, our forum only had around 2K members. I doubt we would have seen the increase in members (now over 10K) if the GR-55 had never been released.     

musicman65

So the extra 8k members will be primed and ready for a VG100 by 2017!

IanRamos

if the low amount of sales of the vg-99 is the reason for not making a new and better product , and the gr-55 sold so much , they should have released a better version of the gr-55 already ...

what is sad is that now that Line 6 disappeared into Yamaha , Roland have the monopoly on virtual guitar ... and that's the reason why we won't see any interesting product in that regard in many many many years ...

thebrushwithin

Since we are lamenting the lack of a new virtual guitar flagship model from Roland, I am curious as to what would totally excite this forum, in terms of features, form, etc., if Roland was listening, with the intention of releasing a new VG that would just blow us all away? What would the VG1000 be packing?

IanRamos

#7
thebrushwithin in that forum we already had a thread like that ( can't remember the name , probably Elantric knows it ) ...
but Roland obviously doesn't listen , nor care about suggestions , ideas , etc ...

me personally , i love to daydream  :)  , so i would say my ideal vg1000 or gr-1000 or whatever the name , would have:
- improved COSM ( it would have to be VERY VERY improved )
- option to change the virtual pickups in the same patch
- fast patch change
- normal guitar input
- wireless gk technology
- better looking gk pickup
- harmonizer
-2 or more expression pedals

and a few more things i can't remember now  :P

thebrushwithin

Yes, I remember Ian! It just seems like a decent time to bring it up again, because mostly, we know what we don't like, whether it's the omission of midi I/O, etc. Actually, I think a consensus of desireable features on a new virtual guitar system, combined with Roland ignoring folks like us, might just encourage another company, since there are several that DO frequent this forum, to take the ball and run with it. Because of necessity, several of our great forum members have developed some fantastic aftermarket 13 pin tech accessories. I am thinking that going modular, with feature boxes, that can interconnect, could give us a lot more of what we find beneficial, as opposed to either waiting for Roland, or giving up on them.Dr. Jones, Codesmart, Gumtown, etc. certainly have the chops to pull it off.

BackDAWman

Quote from: IanRamos on March 18, 2014, 03:17:00 PM
thebrushwithin in that forum we already had a thread like that ( can't remember the name , probably Elantric knows it ) ...
but Roland obviously doesn't listen , nor care about suggestions , ideas , etc ...

me personally , i love to daydream  :)  , so i would say my ideal vg1000 or gr-1000 or whatever the name , would have:
- improved COSM ( it would have to be VERY VERY improved )
- option to change the virtual pickups in the same patch
Maybe a new GK-4 pickup that has a virtual 5/3 position switch

- fast patch change
- normal guitar input
- wireless gk technology
- better looking gk pickup
- harmonizer
-2 or more expression pedals

and a few more things i can't remember now  :P

- a clean and noiseless guitar out
- Guitar to midi tracking as good as or better than the Triple Play

all this and a smaller form factor?

...oh yeah...real 5 pin midi sockets - in, out and thru!

IanRamos

#10
Quote"Yes, I remember Ian! It just seems like a decent time to bring it up again, because mostly, we know what we don't like, whether it's the omission of midi I/O, etc. Actually, I think a consensus of desireable features on a new virtual guitar system, combined with Roland ignoring folks like us, might just encourage another company, since there are several that DO frequent this forum, to take the ball and run with it. Because of necessity, several of our great forum members have developed some fantastic aftermarket 13 pin tech accessories. I am thinking that going modular, with feature boxes, that can interconnect, could give us a lot more of what we find beneficial, as opposed to either waiting for Roland, or giving up on them.Dr. Jones, Codesmart, Gumtown, etc. certainly have the chops to pull it off."
i totally agree , actually i would take it even further and start a proper design of features ( we don't know how to do it , but we can accurately design how we want it done and what we want it to do  ) and after the external design is done , if it's doable , start a Kickstarter or Indiegogo fundraising campaign to get it done ...

"- Maybe a new GK-4 pickup that has a virtual 5/3 position switch
- a clean and noiseless guitar out
- Guitar to midi tracking as good as or better than the Triple Play"
great ideas !

but i don't care for the smaller form factor , my PodHD500 is way bigger than my gr-55 was , but still very easy to carry around and gig with ...
i think that when we are talking about devices that can spare from taking a real amp up and down ( with amp simulators ) , the size is not very important ... it already saves you a lot of space .

Elantric

#11
QuoteSince we are lamenting the lack of a new virtual guitar flagship model from Roland, I am curious as to what would totally excite this forum, in terms of features, form, etc., if Roland was listening, with the intention of releasing a new VG that would just blow us all away? What would the VG1000 be packing?

The poor misunderstood VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6083.0



Here a link to an old thread where we discussed possible DIN13 pin replacement types  - I still like Displayport cables, as these are open source and do not require any licensing (as HDMI does) 
What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.0



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4634.msg31671#msg31671



Post your VG-99 Wish List - for future Rev 2 Firmware
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1319.0
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1319.0;attach=1484


Quoteif the low amount of sales of the vg-99 is the reason for not making a new and better product , and the gr-55 sold so much , they should have released a better version of the gr-55 already ...

what is sad is that now that Line 6 disappeared into Yamaha , Roland have the monopoly on virtual guitar ... and that's the reason why we won't see any interesting product in that regard in many many many years ...

I disagree - I recently played this "non Roland" Guitar Modeler technology in January 2014 at Winter NAMM and I was very excited about its possibilities

Antares DSP AutoTune for guitar system
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;msg=75488;topic=7286.50


IanRamos

#12
Quote"I disagree - I recently played this "non Roland" Guitar Modeler technology in January 2014 at Winter NAMM and I was very excited about its possibilities

Antares DSP AutoTune for guitar system
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;msg=75488;topic=7286.50"

touché !
but that system works on a Roland gk pickup doesn't it ?
and to me personally that pedalboard is not attractive , is as big as a PodHD and only to change tunnings ? it have some pickup emulations , but no amps or effects ...
but it is indeed a interesting step in a good direction for Antares and Peavey .

Elantric

Quotebut that system works on a Roland gk pickup doesn't it ?
and to me personally that pedalboard is not attractive , is as big as a PodHD and only to change tunnings ? it have some pickup emulations ,

Then consider the internal DSP board version

http://www.autotuneforguitar.com/mediafiles/online_help_records/49_ATG_Software_Manual_v2.28.pdf

DeRigueur

Quote from: IanRamos on March 18, 2014, 04:45:32 PM

as big as a PodHD and only to change tunnings ? it have some pickup emulations , but no amps or effects ...
I believe the Antares also corrects intonation.  I may be wrong about this, but what it might help is when you're play major or minor third harmonic intervals with distortion.  If the notes aren't exactly in tune, the distortion will sound bad.  If the Antares can keep the guitar in tune all over the neck, it would be useful.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

Elantric

QuoteIf the Antares can keep the guitar in tune all over the neck, it would be useful.

Correct! Thats the unique function that only the Antares provides


Avoids the need to for this FretWave Fretboard:
http://theguitaraddict.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html

aliensporebomb

#16
In looking back at the requests for a V2.0, the vast majority of what was requested was already in the VG-99 but most people had no clue how to achieve it. 

Example: the document where Steve and Vince met with Pete Swiadon of Roland - very many of the requests were already achievable but it wasn't overly obvious how to achieve it.  Some of the requests were reasonable but some were obviously going to be new hardware needed to do that but you could get a very similar sound by using the existing hardware and the right settings. 

Some of the "bugs" were able to be worked around (nylon hysteresis) but we found that out later - and many of the requested features were possible by using existing settings/features. 

Tip:  I found using my ears was more valuable than looking for specific labels or emulations - I did a lot of "what would this sound like" and go "hey, that sounds like Pete Townshend's Gretsch on "Who's Next" or "That sounds like a Santana sound" or the like.

Ian's requests the vast majority already exist in the 99.

Quote- fast patch change
99 has this except no hangover of previous patch while changing patches otherwise change is mostly instant.

Quote- normal guitar input
Check.

Quote- wireless gk technology
That would be great!

Quote- better looking gk pickup
Or more accurately, smaller GK "wart" housing and more ergonimically fittable to available guitars.  Axon made a cool low profile pickup but not many were out there and after Axon got out of the guitar synth business the GK-3 was the only game in town sadly even though it's a great pickup.

Quote- harmonizer
The VG-99 Harmonizer is the one of the most useful and clean sounding tools I've ever used for guitar.  It is totally Eventide quality and you can use it as an effect not just a string pitcher.  Beautiful thing it is.  I use this to achieve the seemingly impossible.  An unreal piece of gear and it's just one of several hundred other cool things onboard.

Quote-2 or more expression pedals
Hello FC-300.  I know it's not built in and it's expensive but the 2 onboard pedals and the abiity to add 3 more just makes me smile and the sheer bombproofness makes it an essential tool for me.

I realize some of you are viewing this from a GR-55 ownership perspective.  If they somehow.... MELDED a 55 and a 99 together (making a VG/GR-154) you'd have a tool that would blow minds (and pocketbooks no doubt). 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

IanRamos

#17
Aliensporebomb
i do indeed watch those problems from a gr-55 owner ( ex-owner actually ) perspective ... i never had a vg-99 or tried , just saw videos about it , but i sure wish i had one .

all the features you mentioned sound very good ( i didn't know the vg-99 had a harmonizer ) but for me the vg-99 would still not be my dream rig for those 3 reasons :

- lack of midi sounds
- COSM sounds ( i don't like COSM )
- gk cable

as you said , if we could get a company to make a pedalboard that would kinda merge the best of the vg-99 with the best of the gr-55 , PLUS wireless technology and something better sounding than COSM ... every guitarist in the world would get one , i'm sure .

actually my approach would be more like getting somehow midi implemented in a PodHD , something that works perfectly , sound glorious , and in my opinion , only misses modeled guitars and midi sounds ...

Brak(E)man

Quote from: DeRigueur on March 18, 2014, 06:09:17 PM
I believe the Antares also corrects intonation.  I may be wrong about this, but what it might help is when you're play major or minor third harmonic intervals with distortion.  If the notes aren't exactly in tune, the distortion will sound bad.  If the Antares can keep the guitar in tune all over the neck, it would be useful.
there is a guitar that can do just that ,a fretless one, and obviously it is not to be used withe the Antares correct intonation  ;D
correct for one is incorrect for another
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric



Quote- lack of midi sounds
- COSM sounds ( i don't like COSM )
The VG-99 does work as a Guitar to MIDI converter to trigger both hardware and software based Synths. perhaps you mean "Guitar to PCM Synth" - there are no internal PCM Synths in the VG-99.

But suggest you listen to VG-99 tracks (100% COSM guitar) many seldom sound like guitar.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=107.0

mbenigni

Quotebut i don't care for the smaller form factor , my PodHD500 is way bigger than my gr-55 was , but still very easy to carry around and gig with ...
i think that when we are talking about devices that can spare from taking a real amp up and down ( with amp simulators ) , the size is not very important ... it already saves you a lot of space .

I always consider footprint when I look at product.  I think your position is practical and reasonable, but only if the product in question meets all of my needs.  If I have to incorporate it "as part of a balanced breakfast", so to speak, then it needs to be reasonably portable.  I remember when the VG99 came out, I was instantly smitten, but I hesitated because I knew I would also need a footcontroller, and a tone generator for the MIDI stream (probably a MIDI to USB adaptor and a laptop.)  It just wasn't gig-friendly for a low-profile guy like myself, who was playing 3-song sets at open mics as often as not.

The GR55 was attractive in the sense that you could drop one box on stage and be done, theoretically, though it brought a pile of compromises and so created as many problems as it solved.  Sometimes I wish Roland had just carried on with the VG-8 form-factor, just piling in technology until they arrived at a VG-99 with integrated footcontroller.  I know the physical desktop-style control is very useful, but at this point an iOS/Android editor could take its place.

Now, footprint becomes an extremely glaring issue when Roland starts riding the fence with a product like the GP-10.  It has so many ommissions that many of us could never use it without a pile of other gear.  At that point, I would argue in favor of making it as small as possible, with input jacks for expandable control, so that each customer can integrate it with their personal rig per their individual needs.  As we would with any other effects pedal.

Give me a big box that does everything, or give me a little box that I can get creative with.  But hang out in the middle, and I will probably look elsewhere.


mbenigni

Here's an example of how far I'll go in the interest of a portable rig.  The world's smallest GR55 LOL:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8990.msg66086#msg66086

That didn't actually work out, but I also have the world's only WiFi GR55, to my knowledge.  I crammed a Missing Link inside the chassis.  :)

IanRamos

#22
"The VG-99 does work as a Guitar to MIDI converter to trigger both hardware and software based Synths. perhaps you mean "Guitar to PCM Synth" - there are no internal PCM Synths in the VG-99."

ok , i stand corrected Elantric .
yes , i meant PCM sounds , i always forget that name , usually when i talk about midi sounds , i refer to this ones , cause to me the guitar to midi functions make no sense live , so i never use them .

for me the ideal pedalboard should have those PCM synth sounds , so you don't have to take your computer or tablet with you to the gigs .

after i sold my gr-55 and discovered JamOrigin guitar to midi software , i tried in a couple of gigs to play with that setup :
guitar to PodHD , main output to mixer , fx send to soundcard attached to my laptop with guitar to midi software to mixer table .
it sounded good , but it was a massive pain to setup plus i was terrified the whole gig that something i gonna go wrong ( i don't trust windows ) or some drunk is gonna spill beer on my laptop or something like that .. .in the end i barely used midi when playing live anyway , so it made no sense , and went back to use only the Pod .

plus , my laptop can only handle about 5 VST's at the same time before it runs out of memory ( 8 gigas of ram ) , so not very useful , just 5 sounds to use live anyway ...



"Here's an example of how far I'll go in the interest of a portable rig.  The world's smallest GR55 LOL:"

WOW MrBenigni , i just saw your experiment , that's crazy ! but if it would actually work it would be VERY interesting to have it attached to my PodHD and controled by it's midi output ...

also you say that you got somehow the gr-55 to work WIFI ? can you explain that please ?

Elantric

#23
Quotealso you say that you got somehow the gr-55 to work WIFI ? can you explain that please ?

Marc Benigni's GR-55 TouchOSC Navigator for iPad
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6501.0
Jabrudian Missing Link Wi-FI  OSC - MIDI converter


See Missing Link PCB  mounted inside GR-55 on the far right


Marc Benigni's GR-55 TouchOSC Navigator for iPad = Wireless GR-55 iPad Editor / Control surface


Featured Article here at Peter Kirn's CreateDigitalMusic.com site
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/09/rolands-gr-55-guitar-synth-powers-unlocked-with-touchosc-and-ipad/


More info here too:
GR-55 Navigator for iPhone / iPad
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3205.msg30263#msg30263

mbenigni

QuoteWOW MrBenigni , i just saw your experiment , that's crazy ! but if it would actually work it would be VERY interesting to have it attached to my PodHD and controled by it's midi output ...

If I could get it to work (and one rainy weekend I will probably have another go at it) I could find a lot of uses for it.  I could strap a PedalTrain Volto to thing and have a versatile, standalone practice tool.  I could hang it off the back of my Kemper and have alt tunings and synths with best-in-class amp sims, and on and on.  I would miss the expression and control pedals, but honestly, that's about it.  The patch change delays and the fact that nothing else can be done with the other buttons makes every thing left of CTL wasted real estate IMO.

Quotealso you say that you got somehow the gr-55 to work WIFI ? can you explain that please ?
That one isn't as impressive as it sounds - but it does have practical applications.  I just bought a Jarbrudian Missing Link, which acts as a WiFi node that receives OSC messages, converts them, and sends MIDI to a MIDI out port.  (It can also receive MIDI, and send that back to a WiFi client.)  I took the case off and velcro'd the PCB inside the GR55 (where this is plenty of of free space, it turns out.)  Then I ran a short cable from the Missing Link around to the MIDI IN on the back of the GR55.  (I was able to provide power to the ML from the USB port inside the GR55, which was a lucky break.)  With this setup, I can use the iOS app TouchOSC - which recognize the GR55/ML as a WiFi connection, to program and control the GR55.