RC300 Frippertronics - first order approximation

Started by shawnb, August 21, 2012, 09:37:33 PM

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shawnb

I just experimented & got the RC300 to do Frippertronics...  Don't know why I never tried this before. 

Setup:
  • Use the 'Replace' mode (so your overdubs replace the prior loop instead of overdubbing)
  • Use Rec=> Overdub mode (optional - otherwise you have to press play twice after your desired loop length first time thru)
  • Send your Input to Main Out (Note input always goes to your recorded loop as well)
  • Send your Main Out to your amp
  • Send your Tracks to Sub Out
  • Using an iPod to mixer cable (two quarter inch jacks to 1/8" stereo jack) feed your Sub output to your Aux input
  • Open up the FX, I used Natural OD, DRIVE level set to ~0-2 or so (distortion is high even at 0...)
  • Have your FX operate on your INPUT
Your first time thru, play & record the length you want & then cut over into "overdub" mode. 

Two happy accidents:
  • I sent the 'sub' out to the amp by accident.  When I did so, it turned into a constant 'one time' loop.  Everything I played, played back ONCE and ONLY ONCE after the delay interval.   So I could jam against myself, and it would always go away after playing once.   "Eating its own tail" mode...
  • At one point I had the FX level set to 0.  I pressed the FX on button, and that cut my sound out completely.  I pressed the pedal again, turning the FX off, and the sound came back on.   This gap appeared in the loop going forward...   Those who've heard Fripp's loops know he often builds up loops & introduces gaps like this.

I tried it for a while without the FX/overdrive, and the sound will either go quieter or louder depending on your AUX input level vs your MASTER level.  It was too clean, & didn't fade to noise as desired.   

I added the distortion, and it's not as sweet & subtle as the tape distortion Fripp gets.   But it's a starting point!   

Experiment with different distortion types and drive levels on the FX distortion.  If you let it get out of hand, it creates some awfully intense warbling noises over time!   (It's singing to me at the moment...  I'm letting it go a while to see what it turns into...)

Be very careful with your levels!  You have SEVEN levels to deal with, the TRACK level, the MASTER level, the AUX level, the INST level, the FX level, the SUB OUT level and the MEMORY (patch) level. 

I called this an approximation because I could not get that distinctive Frippertonics sound.  Maybe a better mild distortion applied between the Sub Out and AUX In would do the trick.   But the technique described above works with the RC300 & no additional gear (other than the iPod cable).  It's the Frippertronics technique, it just doesn't really sound like Fripp with the FX at hand... 

EDIT...
*** The danger of a hardware loop is high, and this could conceivably damage your amp & maybe even your RC300.  Experiment with all your levels low until it's working.  Disconnect the cable from Sub to Aux when not being used on this patch.  I don't know how sensitive this stuff is, so be careful...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

tekrytor

Cool! Thanks for the very detailed how-to, Shawn! Great reporting!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

Hopkins

Superb!  I am also not sure why I have failed to try this solution before now.

Can you refer me to a track where Fripp uses the sound that you are trying to emulate?  I might have time to have a play today.  I wonder if perhaps the "lo-fi" effect might be useful.

shawnb

#3
Quote from: Hopkins on August 22, 2012, 02:04:47 AMCan you refer me to a track where Fripp uses the sound that you are trying to emulate?  I might have time to have a play today.  I wonder if perhaps the "lo-fi" effect might be useful.

"Water Music I" & "Water Music II" off of Exposure.  Matter of fact, this inspired me to listen to the whole - true - "Here Comes the Flood" as I write.

(You have NO idea how much restraint this post took...   Being a Fripp fan for 35 years, my first draft listed a bunch of full album titles betwixt snarky comments, as I assume everyone knows these things...) 

I have not tried the Lo-Fi effect.   Everything I did try was too extreme.  The onboard FX don't have wet/dry settings, and even the minimal effect settings yield too much effect.   The flanger was inexplicably chaotic.  They are all worth experimenting with, each cool in its own way, but not Frippish. 

So...   I've played a little more often with no FX at all.   Very nice, soothing, clean.   I have, on occasion, turned FX on for only a pass or two & turned 'em off.  Just enough to introduce noise, & let it fade away.   That's as close as I've gotten.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

aliensporebomb

Thanks for the tip- I pretty much have a little solo career around town playing my guitar/vg-99 into a looper doing that type of thing.

I was hoping the RC-300 works well for that since I want to upgrade my looper to something a little more substantial (multiple loops and the ability to save the loops I've recorded, etc).

You can check my youtube page to hear my faux-frippertronics looping stuff with the VG.

I'd be curious to hear some of your experiments.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on August 22, 2012, 06:44:22 AM(You have NO idea how much restraint this post took...   Being a Fripp fan for 35 years, my first draft listed a bunch of full album titles betwixt snarky comments, as I assume everyone knows these things...)

Haha!  Well, I have ordered Exposure so I'll let you know what I think of it in a few weeks.  A friend of mine was always going on about King Crimson but so far I have been too busy exploring my own musical forks and diversions to make a leap over to much of the 70s prog and its offspring.  Perhaps a new-found interest in the history of looping will prove to be the catalyst I need!

Elantric


Hopkins

He seems like an interesting character!  I cannot quite tell from those two clips whether he is troubled by something that he is searching for in music, or whether he writes music on compulsion and enjoys examining and discussing the potential meaning afterwards.


Hopkins

Crikey, I'm not going to get through that in a hurry ;)  But a quick skim suggests to me the latter of my two interpretations.

atonal

Elantric thanks for the Fripp download any chances of getting the other  100 plus pages ? Thanks

Elantric


aliensporebomb

Exposure might be a good choice for a first "exposure" to Fripp as the songs are shorter and kind of like hard rock explorations.

For King Crimson there are several essentials:  "In the Court of the Crimson King" (symphonic prog), "Red" (extremely aggressive complex progressive rock with insanely good drumming), and "Discipline" (total re-work of the lineup to a more modern electric gamelan style).  I'd add "The Power to Believe" because it's just a terrific record.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

shawnb

#13
Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 23, 2012, 05:49:00 AM
Exposure might be a good choice for a first "exposure" to Fripp as the songs are shorter and kind of like hard rock explorations.

For King Crimson there are several essentials:  "In the Court of the Crimson King" (symphonic prog), "Red" (extremely aggressive complex progressive rock with insanely good drumming), and "Discipline" (total re-work of the lineup to a more modern electric gamelan style).  I'd add "The Power to Believe" because it's just a terrific record.

All excellent choices, and I could name a bunch more!   From a Frippertronics perspective, I'll go with "Let the Power Fall", basically the purest, cleanest set of guitar loops he's recorded.   Plus, it has the following on the back cover, which pretty much sums up my way of thinking about work.  In fact, I've always had this posted visibly in my office or cube over the years, first as a grunt programmer, and later, even as I moved up the management chain:

QuoteI
   i)   1   One can work within any structure.
   ii)   2   Once one can work within any structure, some structures are more efficient than others.
   iii)   3   There is no one structure which is universally appropriate.
   iv)   4   Commitment to an aim within an inappropriate structure will give rise to the creation of an appropriate structure.
   v)   5   Apathy, i.e., passive commitment, within an appropriate structure will effect its collapse.
   vi)   6   Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
   vii)   7   There will be difficulty defining the appropriate structure because it will always be mobile, i.e., in process.

      II
   i)   8   There should be no difficulty in defining aim.
   ii)   9   The appropriate structure will recognize structures outside itself.
   iii)   10   The appropriate structure can work within any large structure.
   iv)   11   Once the appropriate structure can work within any large structure, some larger structures are more efficient than others.
   v)   12   There is no larger structure which is universally appropriate.
   vi)   13   Commitment to an aim by an appropriate structure within a larger, inappropriate structure will give rise to a large, appropriate structure.
   vii)   14   The quantitative structure is affected by qualitative action.

      III
   i)   15   Qualitative action is not bound by number.
   ii)   16   Any small unit committed to qualitative action can affect radical change on a scale outside its quantitative measure.
   iii)   17   Quantitative action works by violence and breeds reaction.
   iv)   18   Qualitative action works by example and invites reciprocation.
   v)   19   Reciprocation between independent structures is a framework of interacting units which is itself a structure.
   vi)   20   Any appropriate structure of interacting units can work within any other structure of interacting units.
   vii)   21   Once this is so, some structures of interacting units are more efficient than others.

"My belief is that all political activity directed towards changing the means of working, is ineffective without a change in our way of working, and that this is essentially personal.  If we change our way of doing things, structural change necessarily follows.  If we wish for this personal change we need discipline, and the only effective discipline is self discipline.  External discipline, i.e., control, the normal direction of authoritarian agencies, generates an at least equal reaction.  Control efficiency, multiplied by technology and directed to externals, can only breed de-control at an increasing rate.  This is not necessary and even less is it inevitable, and the movement away from this trend must be gradual and initially personal."

Robert Fripp, 1981
   From the liner notes of the recording entitled "Let the Power Fall", * 1981, EG Records Ltd.

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

mbenigni

QuoteI'd add "The Power to Believe" because it's just a terrific record.

+1

Elantric, thanks for sharing those videos!

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on August 23, 2012, 07:33:04 AM
Quotei)   1   One can work within any structure.
...
...
Robert Fripp, 1981
   From the liner notes of the recording entitled "Let the Power Fall", * 1981, EG Records Ltd.

That list is excellent!

tekrytor

#16
Quoteii)   16   Any small unit committed to qualitative action can affect radical change on a scale outside its quantitative measure.

Hmmm. Maybe we can influence Roland.

I would also highly recommend the early 1970"s "Fripp and Eno" collaboration "No Pussyfooting" for its prototypical use of Brian Eno's tape loops and Robert Fripp's unique guitar and GR treatments, combining into a document so different for its time that it is still not understood forty years later, except perhaps by more experimental "electronic" musicians. Many of its tools have evolved into the tools we now use. It's an interesting glimpse into the past and where these masters, maybe a better term is "creators"' of the craft were long ago.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

aliensporebomb

True story:  I used to run "Let the Power Fall" into my guitar FX rack and re-loop it until my whole house was a thrumming whirring guitar-based resonance cube.  Amazing record and I've never really seen anyone talk about it too many places.  It's one of those things that got very little promotion but the people who bought it ended up doing something unusual and potentially important in music.  Cool really.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

shawnb


LTIA 40th anniversary edition coming up:
http://www.dgmlive.com/news.htm?entry=3916

The 40th anniversary releases have all been remixed/remastered in surround by Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree.   Beautiful work.   I've been getting the DVD-Audio surround editions as soon as they come out. 

My car has a Lucasfilm THX sound system that can play DVD-Audio.  I listen to my KC & PT (& other jazz & prog & classical) surround mixes during my long commute from SF to SJ...

Loud...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

szilard

Quote from: tekrytor on August 23, 2012, 08:35:18 PM
I would also highly recommend the early 1970"s "Fripp and Eno" collaboration "No Pussyfooting" for its prototypical use of Brian Eno's tape loops and Robert Fripp's unique guitar and GR treatments, combining into a document so different for its time that it is still not understood forty years later, except perhaps by more experimental "electronic" musicians. Many of its tools have evolved into the tools we now use. It's an interesting glimpse into the past and where these masters, maybe a better term is "creators"' of the craft were long ago.

+1

And for later soundscapes of Fripp's - Soundscapes - Live in Argentina.

http://www.amazon.com/1999-Soundscapes-Argentina-Robert-Fripp/dp/B000005ONM

Microsoft Soundscapes



http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Making-Windows-Vista-Sing-Robert-Fripp-and-the-Vista-Melody

Reich, Riley, Eno, & Fripp, that's why I started playing around with an EDP ...

Robert

tekrytor

Quote from: Elantric on August 22, 2012, 07:30:09 PM
Try a different browser?

I see all 100 on my browsers (Firefox, Safari)

http://rodolphepilaert63.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/14283738-eric-tamm-robert-fripp-from-crimson-king-to-crafty-master.pdf

On my Nexus 7 and Win 7 devices with different browser, I too get only 100 pages, including the front matter, but the TOC shows 200 pages and the last page shown is 94. So, I think something is missing. But this could just be a teaser for the purchase copy. If so, it's a great teaser. Half is plenty enough to decide if you want to purchase or not. It's a great read for us Fripp followers and anyone interested in modern music philosophy.

Great links and thread fellow Frippertronics folks! Thank you!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

shawnb

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

aliensporebomb

#22
Fripp has always been uneasy with his public life as a musician.  However, this recent issue is one readers of his diary know well: his longtime struggle with E'G records that seemed to be resolved segued to this nonsense with Universal. 

There's a lot of finger pointing by labels and "not me" and "they gave us the rights" and "no we didn't" counterpoint and ultimately the majority of his financial input comes from these older releases that were put out on those labels which have been acquired by the big fish, Universal.

It would be nice if they resolved the matter but Robert has always been uneasy with celebrity, uneasy with public persona.  He has said in the past that music calls upon unlikely individuals to give it voice (boy do I know that one to be true!) but more difficulty in his case the life of the gigging musician has never been fun for him at all.

It's too bad, he's a gifted musician and a smart cookie as they say.  However, read Bill Bruford's autobiography to get an idea for what it's like to work with him.   

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Hopkins

I think it is the same situation as anything that you do "for a living": it becomes a chore.  If someone says "no, not for me, I loved playing music for a living, but it's all this other #%$& imposed upon me by someone else" then they are missing a point.  It's "all this other #%$&" which is necessary to transform what is essentially an abstract product into money, which enables it to become a way of life.

Still, I am not belittling his predicament, I am almost going off on a tangent - it's just a tangent that I believe lies at the heart of all such statements by artists, and it is easy to see why.

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Hopkins on September 23, 2012, 12:37:36 PM
I think it is the same situation as anything that you do "for a living": it becomes a chore.  If someone says "no, not for me, I loved playing music for a living, but it's all this other #%$& imposed upon me by someone else" then they are missing a point.  It's "all this other #%$&" which is necessary to transform what is essentially an abstract product into money, which enables it to become a way of life.

Still, I am not belittling his predicament, I am almost going off on a tangent - it's just a tangent that I believe lies at the heart of all such statements by artists, and it is easy to see why.

Reminds me of an interview from Tom Scholz back in the Musician Magazine days - he said that when music was a thing he loved to do he thought it would be great to do it for a living.  But once it became a job for him it strained friendships in the band and deadlines and time
commitments became a hard fact of the business. 

Fripp has had an arduous practice regimen for years - his flatpicking expertise is undeniable but I can see this as a sort of holding the industry
for ransom in a way "no new material until we get this sorted".  He could be waiting a long time.  However, his legal and real estate background
(his fathers profession which he learned as a "fall back" measure) has made it possible for him to cut thru legalese somewhat easily.  But if
you're a huge record label with hundreds of attorneys at your disposal you can stonewall someone for quite a long time unfortunately.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.