Roland Guitar Friend Jam

Started by Ashman, July 12, 2012, 12:57:12 PM

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aliensporebomb

#25
It's a strange app that uses Adobe Air to function. 

It does look like it downloads the data from the network but I'm not sure if once it's downloaded it needs to do it again.  I'll check by disconnecting my machine.  Some of the backing tracks were fun to horse around with.  I do know that it tweets your score at the end of your session and any badges you might have gotten and uploads the scores to Roland's site.  For all I know they're analyzing my playing to make future products work better.  If I were them, I would.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Bermanator

I'm all for anything that makes me play better, but I'm kinda stumped about what criteria is used to evaluate your playing on this thing!
Do you get docked if there are too many chromatic notes outside the scale? C'mon!
Too bad it doesn't have the ability to record your performance (maybe even upload a snippet to the ranking site would be kinda cool)

Just my 2cents

Peace :P


Mrchevy

comment 1:  I can't believe that Strat was still in tune at the end of his 100 riffs :o

comment2:   Great chops on that 100 riffs but, can he play Guitar Hero ;)
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

tekrytor

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on July 13, 2012, 04:58:41 AM
I wonder if I mount a GK-3 to my wrist it will let join in when Im flogging the dolphin.
Look out everybody its gold medals for me!
It it makes the dolphin happy, it's a good thing. Maybe Friends Jam is also a new doorway to improved animal husbandry  :D
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

Kevin M

All more to get away from the actual creative, artistic element that music is supposed to be about. This whole guitar hero/American idol trend is disturbingly bad for the music industry as art.

Elantric

#30
I do wish Roland could spin a version of the "Air Recorder" - so I could wirelessly record my VG-99 / GR-55 Guitar performance
http://www.roland.com/products/WirelessConnect/

http://www.roland.com/products/WirelessConnect/AirRecorder/

===
Roland Air Recorder (FREE)

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-recorder/id518996624?mt=8
Air Recorder is an app that lets you enjoy high-quality recording with easy operation. With the Air Recorder app you can record sound through the internal mic of your iPhone/iPod touch, or wirelessly make digital recordings of the sound from your Roland electronic musical instrument* using the Roland Wireless Connect USB ** adapter (sold separately). You can also load songs from the music library of your iPhone and create new recordings.   While playing your song from your iPhone, the song is sent to your instrument, where users can jam along and record your version back into Air Recorder. During song playback, you can use convenient practicing functions such as speed/key adjustments and AB repeat. You can export your recorded songs to other apps as well.

Air Recorder also makes a great "meeting recorder." When your iPhone is not connected to an instrument, it defaults to using the built-in microphone and you can save any audio recording as WAV or AAC type.


http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1231



Seems Roland resells the Netgear N150 Wireless USB Wi-Fi adapter (WNA1100)  as the "Roland Wireless Connect USB "
http://www.netgear.com/service-provider/products/wireless-adapters/wireless-n/WNA1100.aspx#one


Maybe if we are lucky  - the GR-55's USB Thumb drive port (USB Host port) could be re-allocated with new firmware to support streaming audio.

jburns

apparently nobody has read the terms and conditions.
if you don't have anything nice to say...
well i have one nice thing to say. i respect my gear, computers, and (as the idiots at roland say), "softwares".
i also recommend watching the last 2 minutes of that episode.

Brent Flash

That 100 licks video is how most of the guitar players I know play. They go from one lick to another and never play a whole song. Just saying!  ;D

tekrytor

Quote from: Elantric on July 12, 2012, 10:35:13 PM
Guitar Hero
Kenny: "Real guitars are for old people."

That hurts!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

rolandvg99

Quote from: Brent Flash on July 13, 2012, 04:41:24 PM
That 100 licks video is how most of the guitar players I know play. They go from one lick to another and never play a whole song. Just saying!  ;D

The music shop salesman blues. We hear these disfigured every. Played too(n) fast, too out of tune, too many times and "Stairway to heaven" being neglected in favour of "Nothing else matters". We're heading down the pipes...  ;)
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Y_my_R

Hi there... I just joined here. I found this thread after trying out Guitar Friend Jam, and because I was wondering why there's only very few people participating. If this thread is any representation of the general opinion of V-Guitar players about the Friend Jam thing, then I suppose this thread answers that question all too well. I understand and appreciate that playing guitar shouldn't be a competition from the perspective of most - and I generally tend to agree - but it depends on the angle.

I think it depends very much on where you're coming from and what musical style you're into. I can almost hear the groans and the ridicule in response to what I'm about to say, but as a kid, I started out playing speed metal and progressive metal, etc. In that style, speed, technique and accuracy is the main thing to aim for, and there was definitely a strong sense of competition between guitar players in the different local bands... and also the (silly) dream to one day get to play in the professional league. Well, and then Nirvana came along and "skill," in the sense of how metal players saw it suddenly lost a lot of it's value.The whole competition thing practically fell to the wayside for me and many others around me. I don't think I was a very good guitar player by that time, but with a reduced amount of motivation to practice (due to lack of competition) I just got worse and worse. Eventually, I decided it's easier to just play bass, because then I could play in generally better bands while practicing less, hahaha.

The whole Guitar Friend Jam thing revived my interest in practicing - because the sense of competition is back. I'm not even close to where I was when I stopped practicing back in the day... and I know that if there were any serious players on the list, I'd immediately drop to the bottom of the ranking. But it's a LOT of fun! And it makes me want to play, and makes me want to try to measure up. And that's the best motivation boost I got for practicing guitar in at least 15 years. And just as long since I actually played guitar every day.

Now, I realize that my angle on this is probably an exception. Metal heads aren't usually technology nerds, so they're not as likely to have a V-Guitar system, I think. And the "competition sense" isn't as pronounced in most other styles, where it's more about playing something beautiful or with a lot of soul - but I suspect that most of you aren't as narrow minded about your sound and style as the average "metal-only" guitar player.

So, IMHO, Roland missed the target group by miles with this one, because people who spend serious money on a V-Guitar system are more likely to be versatile players in search of an expansion of their expression, rather than seeking for a shredding competition. But for me personally, they are spot-on. I think this thing is awesome!

I got my GI-20 and GK3 (plus and extra GK2 and a GK2b) for $200 total, and originally bought this to trigger my hardware and software synths (because I'm also into electronic music, but that's besides the point - on guitar, it's mostly metal for me). Otherwise, I wouldn't have joined the club either.

So, to sum this up... I think that if Roland could find a way to market this to wannabe Steve Vais and Malmsteens, for example by having some shredding greats set the standard with top scores and all the hobbyists trying to get close - then they could actually sell their product to the metal youth, looking to compete with their idols. That they're not doing that yet is a marketing fail, IMHO.

Sure, in the end it's just a bunch of fap-fap-fap on the fretboard, and I understand that perspective as well... but seriously, just like with that "dolphin", this is a lot of fun as well, so I don't even mind if that's perceived like that.

Anyway, for me, this is awesome, and I wish more people would participate. And if just, to show me my place and bump me down, so I have more encouragement to work my way back up into the higher ranks :) It's stupid anyway, that I'm still on rank 5, while I'm technically "only" a bass player at this point ;)

Anywhoo... just my 2 cents.

Cricket

@Y_my_R - Welcome to the forum.

And I agree with you that the guitar jam is kind of fun, and the right kind of competition has its place.  I have a few doubts about the scoring aspect, though.

Find out why here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6617.0

Yeah, it's a joke, but still... ya gotta wonder.

aliensporebomb

#37
I've been having a lot of fun with it.  Weirdly, it always seems like my first or second song gets the highest score.  This time:  11th place with 377 points. 

And then for fun I just played a bunch of nonsense throughout the entire song and it still scored me above 300.  Hmmm.

Welcome Y_my_R - I also was sort of raised with the chops thing as part of my upbringing but it's not everything like it was when I was younger (although I still remember the studio we recorded at back in 1990 there was another guitarist from another band recording there who told the engineer he challenged me to a "speed contest" upon hearing one of the tracks we were working on).

And I got two more medals:  METAL (RAWK!) and POP!



My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

Tonight:  got to #8 and 401.  As predicted, the best score was my 2nd tune done.  After that it varied a bit, dropped a bit, then went to 365, then I figured I'd do it another day.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Y_my_R

 Yeah, for me, the first couple of attempts are also often the ones with the best points, but I can think of a few reasons why it's like that for me:

1. During the first few attempts, I remember which techniques I have or haven't played yet, so I generally tend to play with more variety. After solo 4 or 5, I've repeated a lot of the few tricks I have in my limited repertoire, and can't quite remember which ones I've already gone through in this particular attempt and which I haven't used yet. As a result, I forget to play some of these things during each repeated attempt, and that's why I think my score gets lower.

2. After a stressful day at work, I come home and open a beer... when that's finished, maybe another. By the time I start playing guitar, it's usually been, like, 3 or so - so far, not a problem. A few solos in, I might be at beer 5, having WAY too much fun playing all kinds of nonsense, but scoring accordingly low, hahaha.

About the scoring algorithm... of course it's flawed, but I think that's it's tough to measure the human element that makes things sound "alive". When I'm playing, I most of the time think about the categories the algorithm can judge by, and throw in things that I think may push the points up. Some of these things are (...and I could be completely wrong):

- Dynamic development (soft picking to more "enthusiastic" picking, also in a sense of dynamic development over the whole song)
- Speed development throughout the song (I usually starting slower, and "get more into it" over time... but usually throwing in a pretty fast run through a scale or some weebly lick here and there, even during slower parts.. while not forgetting to give it a break and play something slower here and there).
- How well do I match the major notes on the scale - I have the feeling it gives more points, when I play mostly the main notes on the underlying pentatonics, or at least don't remain on the other notes on the scale for too long. Running through scales fast seems to be good, too, but letting a barely matching note stand for too long, might give point deductions, I think (not quite like wrong notes, for which I'm sure there are deductions... but similar).
- Different techniques - here it depends on what the algorithm can detect. Things like sweep picking, tapping over a span that is longer than one hand can cover, hammer-ons/pull-offs (with the missing picking on the right hand), or jumps to a whole different region of the fretboard should be fairly easy to identify through the algorithm. Some other stuff may be almost impossible to discern. Anyway, when playing, I try to think of what it could logically deduct and what it can't, and focus on the stuff the algorithm should be able to notice.
- Playing entire chords that fully match the playback... both, playing exactly along to the playback for a few bars, then breaking out into a solo from that, and doing whole sections with "chord based solos" elsewhere on the fretboard, where I morph around between chords... kinda funk style - I think with this, the algorithm should be able to detect that I understand the underlying chords and the resulting fingering on the various areas of the fretboard.
- Letting notes or chords stand during harmony changes, that work for both keys... to show the algorithm you didn't only anticipate the change, but also know how the two different keys relate to each other and know a good transition between both.

There's a lot more stuff I'm thinking about when it comes to the algorithm while playing, but it's too much to write out. It seems to generally work, though, since I feel that my score slowly increases, the more stuff like that I pack in there, and the better I think I understand the algorithm.

What I think the algorithm CAN'T consider for scoring, is emotion. It doesn't really matter for the scoring, if you play so beautiful that you could make your mother cry. 0 points for that ;) And that's where I sometimes get disappointed, too. I play a solo that I felt was really heartfelt and moving - maybe even one of the best ones I ever played from a performance, emotion and delivery perspective... and this thing gives me like, 320 points or so (and usually over 400 for an emotionless shredder). I think the human element just can't (yet) be measured by this system, so I focus on stuff like what I've described above.

But there are other challenges that I'm not sure about:
- I play a lot of hammer-ons/pull-offs... sometimes go through an entire run over the fretboard with that (I'm a little lazy with the right hand). My GI-20 isn't very good at picking those up, and if I watch what it shows on screen while playing it looks like it sometimes only gets half the stuff. This can be improved when I change the sensitivity setting on my GI-20 to "tapping", but then I score terribly on "Dynamics". It's a similar problem with some tapping, sometimes.
- Which preset do I use? On the GI-20, so far, I found that only preset 3 seems to work ok with Guitar Friend Jam. Other presets show the wrong position on the fretboard, or grossly misinterpret what I'm doing. Not sure if there's a better preset for this. Any suggestions? How is this on the VG99, or one of the other Guitar Synthesizers?
- I don't actually hear the synthesized signal while I'm playing and go via audio into NI's Guitar Rig. For this purpose, the GK3 only feeds Friend Jam, and I have no idea how what I'm playing would sound through a guitar synth. I only know that when I use the GK3 for recording MIDI into a sequencer, I have to do a lot of fixing, due to interpretation errors. It might be a good thing to "ignore" how it would sound, when playing with Friend Jam, but could also have a negative effect on the score, not sure.
- I'm not sure how to tune the guitar best for this. I noticed that when I tune the guitar, so that light picking shows that the guitar is tuned perfectly, and I then play a solo, but pick fairly hard throughout the song, the Jam Friend makes it look like I'm bending the notes up a bit a lot of the times, which isn't right. Maybe I need to tune a bit flat for this to think I'm playing the right notes?
- I'm unsure if switching guitar synth sounds during playing, or using the expression pedal might give extra points. Since I don't use a guitar synth, and don't have a pedal mapped to anything (wouldn't know what MIDI CC it would expect for, e.g. a wha-wha), I'm missing out on that with the setup I'm using.

Anyway, in summary, I feel that the algorithm seems to make sense, and the more experience I get with this, the higher I seem to score on average, but there are limitation. So, I'd say that to me, it works... at least for what I'd expect it to be able to measure. In either case, I'm now using this as a daily practice tool that gives me feedback, and for this, it's really awesome. I even noticed that although it doesn't give me feedback on the human element or emotion, I often enough don't care and just play what I feel, and I think that my ability to play what I feel has improved for me as well, since the various licks and tricks are now more readily available to me, because I use them more often, and don't have to focus on playing them right so much anymore. So, although it doesn't evaluate that part, it still helps me develop on that level.

The very short answer would be: I think the scoring works, if you keep playing and adapt to what you think gives better points. The solo that gave me 444 points yesterday, wasn't just emotionless shredding, but I think was pretty balanced, but with enough speed and shred in it to drive the points up. So, I'm ok with the scoring.

Sorry for posting a novel like this.

papabuss

#40
Hi Y_my_R
just saw your results on twitter. (Perhaps I get you some day... ;))
THX for your comments and your tipps.
THX for the "long novel"! ;)
Keep on rocking!
FENDER STRATOCASTER (1974); BRIAN MAY RED SPECIAL; VG 99; GR 55; Yamaha DX 7

Music was my first love and it will be my last (JOHN MILES)

aliensporebomb

#41
Somehow I'm #7 now and I haven't done a thing.

Y_my_R:

I have two setups of sorts:

-Roland Ready Stratocaster with GK2A internal.
-Jackson USA Soloist with GK3 external.

Then my Roland hardware is VG-99 and FC-300. 

I've found the settings to be highly picky - none of the settings seem to be very good for legato fingering although on the VG-99 I must set the string sensitivities in the low to mid twenties for good tracking.  It's possibly increasing sensitivity might help with
legato fingering but at the expense of problems with picked notes.  I'll do some experimenting with this.

For my high score I tried to play as melodically yet quick as possible and made sure I was playing thru changes.

The weird thing: my second highest score was achieved by playing the song halfway thru then my phone rang.  I picked it up and
started talking and just sat there with the guitar, once I got off the phone I accidentally hit the open strings so all six were going
at once and that was within two points of my high score.  NO idea how that was possible.

It does seem that my Soloist is actually the faster guitar.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Y_my_R

@Aliensporebomb:

Maybe someone dropped out and deleted their Twitter, if you didn't do anything else to jump one rank up. I wonder if that could cause that.

Thanks for the feedback about sensitivity settings. I'll have to check if the GI-20 has such detailed settings for that. So far, I've only used a dial that lets you select sensitivity for different purposes. I forgot the names, but it's something like normal, hard, soft, tapping and no dynamics, or something. But maybe there's something deeper in the menus. Didn't even think to check for more advanced sensitivity settings yet. Thanks for the tip.

I think much of what I'm playing for points, you can't exactly call melodic anymore. Not exactly senseless stuff like, say, Slayer solos, but sometimes pretty unlistenable scale up& downs...

I only have one guitar mounted with a GK-3 (I have another GK2 and one for bass (GK2b?), but those are not mounted to anything), and that's oddly a 7 string Ibanez 7620, with the GK-3 under the higher 6 strings. The guitar has a pretty fast neck, and the GK-3 responds pretty quickly when tracking MIDI (although still with a clearly audible delay - even when triggering a hardware synth), but I always have the feeling that lower pitches are not tracking as well. My guess is, that that's because to convert audio to MIDI and detect the pitch right, it probably has to count oscillation cycles, and at lower notes count for longer to reach enough cycles and get a reliable pitch reading. But I don't know, just guessing. Either that, or I did a bad job mounting the pickup, hahaha. Anyway, for Friend Jam I'm ignoring the tracking anyway, and only hear audio from the guitar directly, so I wasn't even thinking about that so far for this purpose.

Maybe you'd have hit #1 if the phone wouldn't have rang. That many points on half a song and some randomly ringing strings sounds like a new record :)

@Papabuss
Hey, are you from Germany? I relocated to the US about 12 years ago, but am originally from Augsburg (close to Munich).

Y_my_R

So, I guess the weekly ranking is based on when each individual last played their highest score during that week.

Meaning, if someone played on a Monday, and got placed in the ranging, and then doesn't play for a week, they'll drop off the list on the next Monday, and everybody below moves up. Same thing if someone plays on a Tuesday... drops off next Tuesday if he doesn't play... and so on.
This happened, for example, when "lagstang" disappeared from his #1 ranking... I moved one up, until "nobulldose" put me back in my place ;)

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Y_my_R on July 30, 2012, 12:18:13 PM
So, I guess the weekly ranking is based on when each individual last played their highest score during that week.

Meaning, if someone played on a Monday, and got placed in the ranging, and then doesn't play for a week, they'll drop off the list on the next Monday, and everybody below moves up. Same thing if someone plays on a Tuesday... drops off next Tuesday if he doesn't play... and so on.
This happened, for example, when "lagstang" disappeared from his #1 ranking... I moved one up, until "nobulldose" put me back in my place ;)

Yeah, I went up to #6 but haven't had time to play in the last couple of days.  Interesting thought on the weekly ranking.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Elantric on July 13, 2012, 12:49:31 PM
I do wish Roland could spin a version of the "Air Recorder" - so I could wirelessly record my VG-99 / GR-55 Guitar performance
http://www.roland.com/products/WirelessConnect/

http://www.roland.com/products/WirelessConnect/AirRecorder/

===
Roland Air Recorder (FREE)

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/air-recorder/id518996624?mt=8
Air Recorder is an app that lets you enjoy high-quality recording with easy operation. With the Air Recorder app you can record sound through the internal mic of your iPhone/iPod touch, or wirelessly make digital recordings of the sound from your Roland electronic musical instrument* using the Roland Wireless Connect USB ** adapter (sold separately). You can also load songs from the music library of your iPhone and create new recordings.   While playing your song from your iPhone, the song is sent to your instrument, where users can jam along and record your version back into Air Recorder. During song playback, you can use convenient practicing functions such as speed/key adjustments and AB repeat. You can export your recorded songs to other apps as well.

Air Recorder also makes a great "meeting recorder." When your iPhone is not connected to an instrument, it defaults to using the built-in microphone and you can save any audio recording as WAV or AAC type.


http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1231



Seems Roland resells the Netgear N150 Wireless USB Wi-Fi adapter (WNA1100)  as the "Roland Wireless Connect USB "
http://www.netgear.com/service-provider/products/wireless-adapters/wireless-n/WNA1100.aspx#one


Maybe if we are lucky  - the GR-55's USB Thumb drive port (USB Host port) could be re-allocated with new firmware to support streaming audio.

I should add - I tried "air recorder" just because I assumed it would make for a nice recorder with level meter.  Just a warning: if you don't have a USB stick enabled Roland device there's apparently no way to transfer the recording to your computer after the fact.  Seriously.  What a waste!  So I made the mistake of recording some audio of my gig yesterday and I'd have to record the contents of the 3.5mm jack on the iphone into an analog mixer to
the computer because there's no way to transfer the digital files from the phone to your computer.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

QuoteI should add - I tried "air recorder" just because I assumed it would make for a nice recorder with level meter.  Just a warning: if you don't have a USB stick enabled Roland device there's apparently no way to transfer the recording to your computer after the fact.  Seriously.  What a waste!  So I made the mistake of recording some audio of my gig yesterday and I'd have to record the contents of the 3.5mm jack on the iphone into an analog mixer to
the computer because there's no way to transfer the digital files from the phone to your computer.

Please explain all the details of how you accomplished the above?

Do you own a A Roland Device which supports Air Recorder?

aliensporebomb

-I downloaded air recorder to my iPhone.
-Start recording with app using the internal mic.
-Make bold assumption that the app can transfer to my computer via iTunes.  It does not that I can see.
-I don't have any enabled devices presently, that may change.

I love free apps, I liked the level meter included better than the iPhone built in recorder but I assumed wrongly it would have "transfer then wav to the host PC" function.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Got it = thanks

I forgot Air Recorder supported the internal mic

aliensporebomb

It's really too bad - the actual user interface and audio signal strength meter is great.  Maybe version 1.3?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.