VG-99 and Chapman Stick !!

Started by wirehead, April 09, 2008, 06:01:21 AM

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wirehead


Hello,

i'am new to the VG-99 Users Group - hello to all  ;D

My name is Michael and i'm from Koblenz/Germany. I'm playing some Bass, Guitar, Synths but mainly the Chapman Stick. For more information and some music, have a look at MySpace.

Being a long time user of two BOSS SE-70, i think about getting the VG-99. Actually i've tried the Line6 POD X3 Live, which has two completely independend signalpaths, but seems to be a bit boring (the more unusual Efx like synths and the only Pitchshifter called "Bender" are really crap). I've done a lot of Sound-Programming on many Synths and i think it would be pretty much fun to use the VG-99. I've tried the VG-99 Editor and it looks like the soundprogrammers paradise  ;)

The Chapman Stick has separate outputs for Bass & Melody-Strings. I want to use one GK-3 only for the Melody-Part and put the Bass-Part directly into the Analog-Input off the VG-99, using an additional 1/4 Cable.

What i don't get - can i use the two separate signalpaths off the VG-99, routing the Melody-Part from GK-3 (without the Bass-Part) only into Signalpath 1 and the Bass-Part from Analog-Input (without the Melody-Part) only into Signalpath 2 ? I would be happy, if it would be possible to use the VG-99 without any additional equipment.

Has anybody here at this forum experiences using the Stick (or Warr) and the VG-99?

Thanks,
Michael


Meltdown

Welcome!
I think you can use only one input at a time.
As in only the GK input or the 1/4 inch input not both at the same time.
Visit my website!
http://www.tachyonmusic.com

wirehead

Quote from: Meltdown on April 09, 2008, 07:06:57 AM
Welcome!
I think you can use only one input at a time.
As in only the GK input or the 1/4 inch input not both at the same time.

Are you shure? That would be very bad  :(

In the Editor i have seen the two parameters "COSM Guitar" and "Normal Pickup" in the area "Mix Level" on the detailed COSM Guitar-Page. I hoped "Normal Pickup" means the analog Input, so it would be possible to disable the "Normal Level" on signalpath 1 and disable the "COSM Guitar" on signalpath 2.

Where do i select the Input-Source? I did not found any Page for choosing an Input in the Editor.

Michael

HedgeHop

#3
You can totally use both inputs at the same time, the Gk3 for the melody on one path, and the normal PU for the bass on the other path and mix both to the output.
And you could probably still use both COSM guitars at the same time for the melody, depending on how you organise your effects chain on the "bass" side.

QuoteIn the Editor i have seen the two parameters "COSM Guitar" and "Normal Pickup" in the area "Mix Level" on the detailed COSM Guitar-Page. I hoped "Normal Pickup" means the analog Input, so it would be possible to disable the "Normal Level" on signalpath 1 and disable the "COSM Guitar" on signalpath 2.

That's correct.
No need for input selection. The Cosm guitar signal is modelled from the GK3 pickup, and the normal pickup signal comes from the 1/4 input jack of the VG-99 (or the 1/4 input jack of the Gk3 transfered through the 13 pin cable to the vg-99). The Gk-3 selector needs to be set to the "mix" position.


wirehead

Quote from: HedgeHop on April 09, 2008, 09:03:02 AM
You can totally use both inputs at the same time, the Gk3 for the melody on one path, and the normal PU for the bass on the other path and mix both to the output.
And you could probably still use both COSM guitars at the same time for the melody, depending on how you organise your effects chain on the "bass" side.

That's correct.
No need for input selection. The Cosm guitar signal is modelled from the GK3 pickup, and the normal pickup signal comes from the 1/4 input jack of the VG-99 (or the 1/4 input jack of the Gk3 transfered through the 13 pin cable to the vg-99). The Gk-3 selector needs to be set to the "mix" position.

Good news - that's what i hoped for - thx!

Michael

Meltdown

I stand corrected, sorry for the confusion.
Visit my website!
http://www.tachyonmusic.com

vanceg

Quote from: wirehead on April 09, 2008, 09:14:01 AM
Good news - that's what i hoped for - thx!

Michael

I wanted to add one more assurance that this can be done. yes: Melody strings use GK3, Bass strings use magnetic pickup, Engine A in the VG-99 can be assigned to use the GK3 while Engine B can be assigned to use the magnetic pickups.

On the GK-3:
Be aware that the alternate tuning, pitch shifting and some of the synth models do not function very well when you tune the strings below about 3 half steps lower than a normal guitar. That is, if the lowest pitch on your lowest melody string is below C#, you might not be able to use the pitch shifting and alternate tuning sections of the VG-99.

But I suspect that this will not be a problem for you: All of the other functions of the VG-99 seem to work very very well even on lower tuned instruments.  Effects, amp modeling, COSM guitar modeling all work very well even using instruments that are tuned very low.  And...your melody strings may be high enough for the VG-99 - How is your instrument tuned? 

I run a six string bass through the VG-99 and it works great - I just cant use any of the pitch shifting and alternate tuning features.

Vance

Elantric

When running a GK-3 - turning off "Auto Detect" on the VG-99 will allow  both 13 pin GK input and the Rear Guitar In to work simultaneously.

wirehead

Quote from: vanceg on April 09, 2008, 11:23:23 AM
On the GK-3:
Be aware that the alternate tuning, pitch shifting and some of the synth models do not function very well when you tune the strings below about 3 half steps lower than a normal guitar. That is, if the lowest pitch on your lowest melody string is below C#, you might not be able to use the pitch shifting and alternate tuning sections of the VG-99.

But I suspect that this will not be a problem for you: All of the other functions of the VG-99 seem to work very very well even on lower tuned instruments.  Effects, amp modeling, COSM guitar modeling all work very well even using instruments that are tuned very low.  And...your melody strings may be high enough for the VG-99 - How is your instrument tuned? 

Thanks for your estimation. I'm getting a bit unsure course i would like to use some of the Pitchshifting Features. My Stick is a Grand 6+6 using the "classical" tuning in fourths for the melody-part, starting with C#. Thats not below C# - is there any chance? I'm not that much interested in alternate tunings and would use the polyphonic pitchshifting for octaves above, to get a richer sound like a 12-String Guitar. The GR300-Simulation would also be very important for me.

I know you from name and you are a longtime Stickplayer - am i right? Did you use the VG-99 on the Stick?


@Meltdown: No problem  :)

@sustainiac: Thats good to know - thx!



vanceg

Yes!  If your lowest note that you are playing on the melody side of the stick is 3 half steps below normal guitar tuning (C# for the lowest open string) then you should be JUST FINE using the pitch shifting on the VG-99. You may have different results than I have - but I think that I have tested this pretty throughly and feel fairly confident saying that you won't have a major problem using the alternate tunings and pitch shifing (and the GR-300 emulator).

I am not a stick player - but I do some work designing systems for stick and Warr guitar players so I'm pretty familiar with the various issues.

Vance


Quote from: wirehead on April 09, 2008, 12:46:03 PM
Thanks for your estimation. I'm getting a bit unsure course i would like to use some of the Pitchshifting Features. My Stick is a Grand 6+6 using the "classical" tuning in fourths for the melody-part, starting with C#. Thats not below C# - is there any chance? I'm not that much interested in alternate tunings and would use the polyphonic pitchshifting for octaves above, to get a richer sound like a 12-String Guitar. The GR300-Simulation would also be very important for me.

I know you from name and you are a longtime Stickplayer - am i right? Did you use the VG-99 on the Stick?


@Meltdown: No problem  :)

@sustainiac: Thats good to know - thx!




mech

Wirehead, let me just second Vance's advice here. :)

I've got a maple 6+6 Grand (MR w/ high bass 4th) with a GK on the Melody side.  Just as he says, you should have no problems with the tuning.  I've had no problems on tracking the low notes down to about C# with mine.

--m.
_____
GK Guitars: Frankenvox (fretless Vox 11-string GK Oud); Switch Innovo III MIDI; Line 6 Variax 300
VG Tech: VG-99 (x2); VG-8EX; WP-20g
Control: FC-300, EV-5, FS-6
Outboard: Macbook (Live, Bidule, Reaktor, etc), Looperlative LP-1, various boutique FX

wirehead

@Vance & Mech:

You have made my day ;D
So there is no reason left against buying the VG-99 and i will order it next week. I'm really curious!

Thx again,
Michael

vanceg

You'll love it, it's a way of life.....(though it doesn't look just like a Telefunkin U47.)

Vance

Quote from: wirehead on April 09, 2008, 11:14:28 PM
@Vance & Mech:

You have made my day ;D
So there is no reason left against buying the VG-99 and i will order it next week. I'm really curious!

Thx again,
Michael

feloniouspunk

The guys in the crew
Have got a present for you!

Lots of Gear. :)

vanceg

Note that the VB-99 may be an excellent option for those of you wanting to use the V-series devices with a bass-oriented instrument like the Stick.

Vance

Quote from: wirehead on April 09, 2008, 06:01:21 AM
Hello,

i'am new to the VG-99 Users Group - hello to all  ;D

My name is Michael and i'm from Koblenz/Germany. I'm playing some Bass, Guitar, Synths but mainly the Chapman Stick. For more information and some music, have a look at MySpace.

Being a long time user of two BOSS SE-70, i think about getting the VG-99. Actually i've tried the Line6 POD X3 Live, which has two completely independend signalpaths, but seems to be a bit boring (the more unusual Efx like synths and the only Pitchshifter called "Bender" are really crap). I've done a lot of Sound-Programming on many Synths and i think it would be pretty much fun to use the VG-99. I've tried the VG-99 Editor and it looks like the soundprogrammers paradise  ;)

The Chapman Stick has separate outputs for Bass & Melody-Strings. I want to use one GK-3 only for the Melody-Part and put the Bass-Part directly into the Analog-Input off the VG-99, using an additional 1/4 Cable.

What i don't get - can i use the two separate signalpaths off the VG-99, routing the Melody-Part from GK-3 (without the Bass-Part) only into Signalpath 1 and the Bass-Part from Analog-Input (without the Melody-Part) only into Signalpath 2 ? I would be happy, if it would be possible to use the VG-99 without any additional equipment.

Has anybody here at this forum experiences using the Stick (or Warr) and the VG-99?

Thanks,
Michael



malhomme

#15
Quote from: vanceg on April 09, 2008, 11:23:23 AM
On the GK-3:
Be aware that the alternate tuning, pitch shifting and some of the synth models do not function very well when you tune the strings below about 3 half steps lower than a normal guitar. That is, if the lowest pitch on your lowest melody string is below C#, you might not be able to use the pitch shifting and alternate tuning sections of the VG-99.
I beg to slightly differ...
While I'm not using the VG for my Tap guitar (it is not GK equipped, tough there are piezos on it), my regular guitar is a Steinberger GM like custom made guitar.
It is an extended baritone (28' scale with 31 frets).

It works flawlessly -with limitation of the GK and VG themselves- even in pitch shifting operations.
ANd alternate tuning, i do quite alot (you know that Joni Mitchell syndrom)

Oh, I forgot: I am tuned to C (C F Bb Eb G C)

vanceg

Interesting. You seem to be the only one I have ever heard of who has absolutely no problems with this. Even Roland confirmed that there would/should be issues. I even played the sound for Roland and they said "Yup - it's going to do that when tuned lower- we don't support lower tuned instruments".
I wonder if you and I are listening for different things.

So, you are saying that on your Low C on your 6th string, if you use Alt Tuning to pitch shift it up an octave that it sounds 100% as stable as the note D on the second fret of the same string?  What if you tune down even one more half step.

you and I are using a very similar guitar - mine is a 28" bari with a moses neck.  GK3.

Vance

Quote from: malhomme on January 29, 2009, 12:33:40 AM
I beg to slightly differ...
While I'm not using the VG for my Tap guitar (it is not GK equipped, tough there are piezos on it), my regular guitar is a Steinberger GM like custom made guitar.
It is an extended baritone (28' scale with 31 frets).

It works flawlessly -with limitation of the GK and VG themselves- even in pitch shifting operations.
ANd alternate tuning, i do quite alot (you know that Joni Mitchell syndrom)

Oh, I forgot: I am tuned to C (C F Bb Eb G C)

malhomme

I don't know. I still also use the VG-8, and the VG8 also works.

I always imagined that C was the very limit...
I did not try to tune it lower than C though.
My only Roland machne that wouldn't work is my old GR50 that will stop à C#.

But my wish list would certainly add the possibility to set the scale of the guitar in the VG up to 30'...

vanceg

OK - that gives me a good clue: I think we may be talking about different things, or have different expectations because the VG-8 was completely unusable to me on my Baritone. Well, I should say, the individual string pitch shifting was totally unusable below C# (below the low E).

Interesting difference between the VG-99 and VG-8:  on the VG-99 it seems that this glitching in the pitch detection starts 3 half steps below normal guitar tuning on EACH string, whereas the glitching on the VG-8 exists only on the low E string below C#, indicating that the "Lowest Pitch Detectable" parameter of the pitch detection algorithm on the VG-8 is universal, whereas it is on a Per-string basis on the VG-99.

But all that said - I am thrilled you find no problems using the alternate tunings and pitch shifing features of the VG-99 on the low notes of your Baritone.  Perhaps you and I can work together to figure out what the variables might be which cause so many other people (including myself) to have difficulty with this and why it is working well for you.

I have three instruments, all of which exhibit this issue. One uses a GK-3, one a GK-2 and one uses a Graphtec Ghost system (ok, it's a bass, but I can easily tell that the pitch starts messing up at the same point that it does on my guitars).

Tell me more about your instrument.

perhaps this has something to do with sensitivity levels or..... hmmmmm..... don't know what.

It might also be a matter of "expectations": You may not be bothered by the glitching sounds that I and others hear. 

Exploring this light mystery.

Vance

Quote from: malhomme on January 29, 2009, 01:40:58 PM
I don't know. I still also use the VG-8, and the VG8 also works.

I always imagined that C was the very limit...
I did not try to tune it lower than C though.
My only Roland machne that wouldn't work is my old GR50 that will stop à C#.

But my wish list would certainly add the possibility to set the scale of the guitar in the VG up to 30'...

malhomme

Regarding glitching, yes inded there was glitching issues with the VG8. But then, i add glitching issues with any string.
It was like, if I played a chord, the first time each note was played there was glitching, and then the second time none anymore...

There are some occcasional glitches with the VG99. But These are not related, with me I mean) with the note itself.

I may have a beginning of explanation (maybe), and it lays in the wood.

As I said, my guitar is a baritone made out of a Steinberger GM design.
It has a sawamp ash body (I am VERY partial about swamp ash) with a quilted maple top.
It has a oiled fisih). ans internal GK3 was added.

First thing I noted with this guitar was a very clearer fundamental.
The luthier explained me it was quite normal, and I should expect though that this strong fundamental would evolve with the time, the sound going toward a more complex structure.

But then, using it with the VG8 (I hadn't bought the vg99 at the time, it was 1 year ago) I rediscovered the vg8.
I coud A/B my different guitars GK equipped (Steinberger, Squier tele), and there was something really special to this one.

All sounds came more defined, clearer, better.

Explanation ? Maybe the algorithm that handles pitch shifting gets troubled by the fac that low notes, and specially open low strings are reallly harmonically rich. Maybe it gets confused and need to settle down...

It may of course also be that we have different expectations...

I will record a few things with pitch shift and let you hear the result, so you can judge by your standard....

tobs

Hi, I'm the engineer for merge/merge factory , which uses a stick as its primary instrument, played by the very capable nima rezai(he was selected by bob culbertson as stick player of the month a couple years ago).  We have had incredible success using the boss gt-pro for separate bass/treble processing.  The gt pro really only has about the 1/3 the power of the vg99, so we're looking to move to this platform in the near future. I own a vg99, so we'll be doing some tests soon.  One thing to think about is how to get a consolidated sound, ie how to make the treble and bass sides sound like they are coming from a single instrument, and also have the ability to dynamically switch to a more separated sound. we were able to do this with the gt-pro by some clever tricks with routing. In the vg 99, the routing situation is much easier, but now you have one standard analog pickup, and one gk pickup.  Nima's stick uses active emgs, and amazingly there is a model of active emgs in the vg99 (for the modified strat), so we'll have to see how that blends together.  I believe it should be fine, we'll just plug tweek the gk pickup while using the normal pickup until they sound identical.  This would be ideal, because we can then switch to other pickup models for a separated bass/treble sound, and then back to the emg model for the consolidated sound.  Anyway, i think the vg99 and the stick will be great together.  Judging from the punchy sounds, and great f/x from the gt-pro, the vg 99 will really dominate in this context! if you want to hear some great tones from the gt-pro, search for nima rezai and merge on youtube (there is some really nice stuff from a show we did in belgium, and in santa barbara), or check out:
www.mergemusic.com
www.mergefactory.com

hope that helps!

Brent Flash

Quote from: tobs on March 31, 2009, 09:07:59 AM
Hi, I'm the engineer for merge/merge factory , which uses a stick as its primary instrument, .....search for nima rezai and merge on youtube (there is some really nice stuff from a show we did in belgium, and in santa barbara), or check out:
www.mergemusic.com
www.mergefactory.com

hope that helps!
Welcome to the group tobs!  :)

And thanks for the info!

bankian

Just to say that I've been using a VG99 with my stick for nearly a year and I'm very pleased with it.  I've only got the hex pickup on the melody side but I mainly wanted it to thicken up the melody -I like the bass side of the stick as it is.

I recently manage to squeeze an extra pre-amp into the GK3 to send the output from the melody pickups down the unused pin 9 of the GK cable.  This means I can have both "normal" outputs from the stick plus the hex output but with only one cable.  Working well so far.  This gives more options in terms of whether to use just the VG99 (channel A handling bass and channel B handling melody) or farm-out the bass side to my old GT6 and use the VG99 to handle the standard melody pickup and hex pickup outputs.

There's more discussion at www.stickist.com

Ian

erikbojerik

What pickups are you Stick players using to provide input into the VG-99?  My recollection was that string spacing on the Stick was more narrow than a standard guitar - so that would mean a GK pickup might not be suitable for more than a few strings, correct? 

Or are you Stick guys using piezos?

just-this-guy

Quote from: erikbojerik on December 29, 2011, 02:55:50 PM
What pickups are you Stick players using to provide input into the VG-99?  My recollection was that string spacing on the Stick was more narrow than a standard guitar - so that would mean a GK pickup might not be suitable for more than a few strings, correct? 

Or are you Stick guys using piezos?

stick enterprises modifies the GK pickups in-house for use with stick

(whoops, worry this is a very old post)

due to the construction of the saddles, a standard guitar saddle piezo system isn't mechanically compatible.