Yamaha G50 Guitar MIDI Converter

Started by swarfrat, January 17, 2012, 08:13:07 PM

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swarfrat

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. First of all, to whoever was bidding on the GI-10 on ebay that almost went for peanuts,1) pbbbbth! At least I made you pay a fair price, and 2) Neener neener, I got the G-50 that came a bit later.

Seriously though, for anyone with G-50 experience:
1)Is the guitar MIDI volume assignable? Can you make it a mod wheel or something?
2) Is pick position available as a controller, or can it only be used for patch changes?
3) Pitch bend range seems odd on a guitar controller. I'd expect in at least one mode (especially in channel per string mode) you could get pitch bend to match measured pitch, enough to play guitar and synth bends in unison. Looking through the manual online, it appeared PB range has settings, implying the scale is rather approximate. Is there a mode which will do that?

BBach

The manual is available online at the yamaha website. I usually use the Vg-99 guitar to midi feature instead of the g-50, unless I need the pitch bend range to be something other than +_12. I haven't had great results with the g-50 using piezo (moog guitar) , but the gk systems work very well.

swarfrat

Yes - those questions are a result of reading the manual.  The manual states nothing about the mapping of actual pitch bend to pitch bend range. In fact, I think it's rather brain dead to try to 'map' real actual pitch detection pitches onto a scaled range. Pitch bend range is an artifact of mod wheels and levers. Does anyone have experience with this - if I grab a g3 and bend up to a4 but my pitch bend range is set to anything greater than 0 - what happens, and is it ever feasible to play guitar and synth in unison with bent notes?

Rereading, I do see now that pick position is assignable to a control and not just to patch change. But I can't really tell the source of the real time controls. I see volume control can be disabled, but mapping isn't clear, though there is no obvious source for say - sending pan or aftertouch messages - which it appears you can do.

Spider

Quote from: swarfrat on January 18, 2012, 07:42:28 PM
Yes - those questions are a result of reading the manual.  The manual states nothing about the mapping of actual pitch bend to pitch bend range. In fact, I think it's rather brain dead to try to 'map' real actual pitch detection pitches onto a scaled range. Pitch bend range is an artifact of mod wheels and levers. Does anyone have experience with this - if I grab a g3 and bend up to a4 but my pitch bend range is set to anything greater than 0 - what happens, and is it ever feasible to play guitar and synth in unison with bent notes?

Rereading, I do see now that pick position is assignable to a control and not just to patch change. But I can't really tell the source of the real time controls. I see volume control can be disabled, but mapping isn't clear, though there is no obvious source for say - sending pan or aftertouch messages - which it appears you can do.

1. G50 dosn't support piezzo.

2.You can only use s1/s2 as:

+/- button like on G50

program change up/down

-/+ 1-2 octve switch

3. What you mean "pick possition"??? plexi on string close to rear / front pickup (picking position function)? or pickup switch?

so first NO, second yes= you can change CC or AF by changing place where you pick strings.

4. Pitch band range is set for every patch and if you connect to for example Yamaha MU100R synth, G50 will change it automatically but when connected to VST you must set it accordingly manually in software. Or use 
it set to "0" for piano sound for example.



swarfrat

Just wanted to comment for posterity's sake:

I'd heard that the Yamaha doesn't have Axon's tweaks for piezo. This thread (after I bought it) was the first I heard that it didn't 'support' piezo, but lots of things that aren't 'supported' still work. What he means by 'doesn't support' is "Doesn't WORK" with piezo. Oh it does, but there's a flurry of ghost notes. It seems there's a fundamental difference in Piezo vs Magnetic pickups that doesn't matter to an ac coupled audio signal but matters very much to the Axon early reflection algorithm. So it Does Not Work (in a useable fashion).

I tweaked for a while before I got frustrated and dug this up. I saw one guy had filtered it out offline, but that sort of nixes the whole 'faster tracking' anyway. Live and learn. Gaaaah!

ZenBalancer

#5
I'm surprised that a 20+ years old device already was capable of Pick Splitting:

"Yamaha G50
MIDI Guitar Interface
Published in SOS December 1996"
-- http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/dec96/yamahag50.html

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/midi-controllers/g50/

Also just for clarity, it's only available with a "100-120 V AC Adapter", and it doesn't matter since I don't have a budget for it and shipping from country to country is discouraged. Also I'd rather wait for a more recent tech supporting a newer generation solution. But that might take a while, so people would be justified to get this off your hands until then.



Edit: its footcontroller is still available on the market! : http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/midi-controllers/mfc10/?mode=model
Also in Europe.
Edit2: there is a compatible universal adapter mentioned here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15107.msg107926#msg107926
Often, I find myself. Wasting time. Splitting hairs. Imagining.
Often, quietly.

GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

BBach

#7
One thing people should be aware of is that the G50 is not recommend for use with piezo pickups. Maybe the external Butterworth filter offered for sale by one of the forum members from Sweeden would correct for a piezo signal. I have a G50 and it works very well with GK pickups, although I normally use the VG99 for 13 pin midi these days. I would recommend saving a little more money and getting a Tripleplay. They have made great strides recently to eliminate system bugs for both the software only, or incorporating the FC-1 as a hardware controller. The tracking is significantly better than older midi systems. The tripleplay was actually developed by the same guy that designed the axon and yamaha systems, but with more years of development towards tracking improvements. GuitarBuilder, it wasn't my intention to make it hard for you to sell the G50. There might be individual circumstances where the G50 would be a good fit, but on balance I think my advice is sound. Sorry if it dissuades someone who would have been well served by the G50.

GuitarBuilder

You're not doing me any favors posting something like that, BBach!  I appreciate the comments about piezo pickups - we know how to deal with those.  I don't appreciate your final comments.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

BBach

I'm depreciating the value of my own G50 as well. Just calling it as I see it.

ZenBalancer

The tech behind the Yamaha G50 and Axon, are still to date as far as I could find out, the only devices that support Pick Position detection and thus Pick Splitting, NON-invasively. Graph Tech Ghost system isn't available as an external add-on HW, it HAS to be integrated into a guitar that would make sense with it. Not any guitar, and not without workmanship costs by a professional. If someone reading this is comfortable to install it in a guitar themselves: you're not the norm for most demographics. At least not me.

The G50 on their home page which I linked in an earlier reply, even claims support for:

QuoteReal Time Picking Position Control

The picking split is also handy for specifying a control change message – such as vibrato – to be transmitted with the picking position is changed.

Real Time Touch Control Sweep Effect

The G50 lets you use playing technique to control the sound. For example: you can have the guitar envelope control a filter cutoff frequency to create a "sweep" effect
.

The last one in particular is intriguing.

What's even more interesting that was said by BBach, is that the same person has continued developing tracking to MIDI tech, released in the "FTP". What I wonder is why the nuanced position tracking (including Pick Splitting to start with) isn't supported yet. Not Roland nor Boss product either.

But this could mean that "FTP" will support it in the future; perhaps through a software/firmware upgrade, but also perhaps would require a new "FTP" hardware/version. Although I picked up somewhere that the current "FTP" hw is underutilized, leaving plenty of room for a frmware that would introduce more capabilities.

But again, that might take a while, and no one seems to know how long. The same person 20 years later with a specialised team I presume, still didn't manage to make it work perfectly and with all possibilities. How long will it take..?

So again one might be justified to get the G50 off both your hands (or the Axon) until a more complete and overall better solution is available.

Personally I'm sticking with MIDI Guitar from jamorigin.com, for the low costs and a fair set of possibilities and tracking usability.

Putting things in perspective indeed shouldn't hinder anyone from making their own choice with what they want and can currently afford.

Anyone wanting nuanced position tracking withought going the way for the Ghost (only Pick Splotting as far as I know in that case), doesn't have an alternative for a while.

Get informed further. Correct if anything here is wrong. And take your pick.
Often, I find myself. Wasting time. Splitting hairs. Imagining.
Often, quietly.

GuitarBuilder

Elantric - can we move the commentary and opinions to another part of the forum?  This was intended to be a for sale post!  Thanks!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

GraemeJ

GuitarBuilder has a good point. 

If a person is not actually interested in buying something, then it is disrespectful (to say the least) to make derogatory comments about the item on offer - whether they are right or not.  It is up to the buyer to do their own research to ascertain if it is what they need.

GuitarBuilder

Thanks for the support, GraemeJ!

All I ask for is common courtesy...... ::)
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

BBach

"GuitarBuilder has a good point. 

If a person is not actually interested in buying something, then it is disrespectful (to say the least) to make derogatory comments about the item on offer - whether they are right or not.  It is up to the buyer to do their own research to ascertain if it is what they need."

I certainly meant no disrespect and I didn't make derogatory comments about the G50. I did point out some of the limitations inherent in this older technology that I felt a potential buyer should know about before making a decision and suggest a solution that might better suit  the aspirations of the buyer. People come to this forum to research these things. Why not let the chips fall where they may. I've never been a fan of "Let the buyer beware" philosophy. It is the nature of digital electronics to become less valuable as improvements find their way to market. To my way of thinking, it is more important that a new buyer be provided the entire picture rather than defending the asset value of the seller. Again, there are many situations where the G50 would totally meet the requirements of a potential buyer. I wish GuitarBuilder a mutually successful transaction with whomever buys his G50.

BBach

Is there an update for piezo pickups available ?