The SY-300 Kicks A** for Experimental and Ambient Music

Started by Rhcole, October 09, 2015, 11:38:49 PM

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JiveTurkey

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 07, 2016, 06:44:24 AM
I on the other hand love the GK pick up and it's not unclean chording it's indistinguishable mush , I agree about synths I can play synths from a keyboard or a daw but a guitar is way superior to any of those when I comes to expression.
And I'm speaking about cosm and hrm synths
I am by far a practitioner of the KISS principle. The GK flies completely in the face of that thought process for me  ;D I don't want to bolt that abomination to every guitar I own nor do I have the money for a custom build nor do I desire to play some Roland ready strat. Not that there's anything wrong with that  :D Make an affordable Roland Ready Flying V and we'll talk  ;)

The SY handles basic bar chords, at least in the tones I use and that is all I need. I understand someone having frustration when playing jazzier chords through a more complex rig; but as a cover band guitarist that needs some cheesy casio keyboard level goodness; the SY delivers tenfold. I completely get it if someone with a pickier tonal palette isn't satisfied with what is on tap. I am and I am so very happy for that fact.

Brak(E)man

But I don't see SY 300 that's something for a cover band, I see it as follow up on Gr300 and it falls very short.
In terms of cover band any old gr 20 or gr55 would work IMO
Also an extra 700 per guitar to have a built in gk is cheap compared to what most guitar players spends on stomp boxes , amps , fx even cables

I'm not having a problem per se with Sy
I'm keeping mine , but it's not advertised right and it was released before it was finished as a product , wtf a mono dist in a dedicated
stereo box no real polyconversion etc
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

aliensporebomb

I just got done doing a show with the 99 and did some of the spaciest ambient I've done.  I'm working on the video editing as we speak.  Stay tuned. 

You don't need a GK wart - some guitars have it more integrated and if the RRS isn't your style you can get it installed on other instruments.  There are GK guitars out there that don't cost a fortune that aren't the usual kind.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

JiveTurkey

#28
I don't own a guitar that cost $700, let alone have $700 to sink on top of a guitar build price. I'm cheap  :-[

This is my board:

I use the SY for horns, organ tones, some very bad approximations of strings, octavey stuff. All within a cover band context. I don't have too much $ wrapped up in the board. I had a GR55 and a GR33(or 30; can't remember). The tones were "better" in that they were "closer" to the "real" thing but it really was no contest as far as "realness" vs. ease of implementation once the SY came out. You were looking at the accuracy of the details whereas I was just seeing "NO GK REQUIRED" and I was sold  :D


Brak(E)man

I saw that no gk too and foolishly beleived it. Having used jam origin I thought that Roland wasn't faking it.
I have guitars that are worth much less than the strings that are on not to mention the gk.
But I'm not trading the gk away until there's a functioning non hex cosm , hrm guitar synth
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Rhcole

Re: Roland's misrepresenting the SY-300. I was suspicious from the beginning when I noticed that none of their demo videos showed actual chords being strummed. I tried the SY out and realized I could live with its flaws.

But, let's not put this solely on Roland's plate: Here is the description from Electro-Harmonix's website of the HOG2:
"The award winning HOG (Harmonic Octave Generator) earned kudos from players and reviewers alike for its ability to exponentially expand a musician's sound palette. Now EHX take the HOG to an even greater level of performance and functionality with the HOG2. It delivers complete control of ten totally polyphonic and glitch free voices ranging from two octaves below to four above the instrument's pitchâ€"all without the need for a special pickup or instrument mods of any kind."

Play a min7 through the HOG and the fillings in your teeth will start hurting and your nose will run, I promise you.
NOBODY has glitch-free polyphony and pitch shifting through a 1/4" cable yet. So, in a sense, they are all in collusion with one another to define "polyphony" and "glitch-free" performance as something other than what you and I might expect it to be.

JiveTurkey

#31
If it's for recording and you need absolute perfection and clarity; sure. A different solution is in order. For doing the horn parts on covers of La Vida Loca in a local bar; not so much  ;D

Brak(E)man

Jamorigin has come very close to the hex , and if that's possible with midi it should work with cosm or hrm , I like the concept of the SY except a few flaws the non hex being the highest on the list , mono dist another and no fx slot before osc another.
The adaption curve compared to picking up the vg8 the first time is humungous.
But maybe it'll work it's way into a live set eventually.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

Quote from: Rhcole on July 07, 2016, 10:02:53 AM
NOBODY has glitch-free polyphony and pitch shifting through a 1/4" cable yet. So, in a sense, they are all in collusion with one another to define "polyphony" and "glitch-free" performance as something other than what you and I might expect it to be.

EHX is getting better at it though, with their "Key9," "B9," "C9." Although the pitch shift might be limited to octaves ...
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

szilard

Quote from: JiveTurkey on July 07, 2016, 07:09:20 AM

The SY handles basic bar chords, at least in the tones I use and that is all I need.

I don't have any problem with extended chords given reasonable wave forms. I play maj & min 7ths, 9ths, and 13ths without any problems. The number of notes is not a problem, 5 or 6 notes is fine. The only place I have problems is minor and major 2nds.


chrish

I guess what i don't understand why many guitar players don't like the hex pickup. With the sy-300 we could have had both a gk and 1/4 input (they did it on the gp-10 and vg99). Instead we got no hex input and a bunch of ad hype claiming hex performance using a 1/4 input. Was that choise made to appeal to the folks who have been vocal in not wanting a gk unit or maybe to match other companies who advestise the absence of a hex pickup as somehow being a plus for their product? The sy is a great concept that was poorly executed. It is however great for ambient music in creating spacey type soundscapes. With it, for the first time in my music history (been playing off and on for 53 years) i've felt like i've created something though music. Kind of like something that my wife does so effortlessly with her landscape painting (she's a pro). She uses pastels, a direct connection with color to her fingers and we use sound waves generated though our fingers on a fretboard and a vibrating string.   

szilard

I like the SY-300 and am having fun with it. I think it's nice for the price.

Here's a song with maj 7ths and a min 7th, 4 notes and 6 notes respectively. A standard quartet/quintet setup - guitar plays rhythm and synth plays the lead then they reverse. The chords are the same for the guitar and the synth because the synth is the SY-300. There is a second synth doubling the rhythm part throughout.




Avatar

I received my SY 300 last week.

Maybe my guitars are set up better or correctly .
Maybe I play chords cleaner than others, but I love this no hex pickup synth.
I have no problems with clean chord reproduction .

I learned synth programming on an ARP Odyssey and an ARP Avatar ( the same animal ).
People having trouble with the SY 300 , need to learn how to creat a sound from its basic form.
I recommend the book that helped me learn. It's called " Learning Music with Synthesizers"
By David Friend. The book is out of print , BUT ! You can download it for Free on a .pdf

The Actual scanned book ( Which  I prefer  )

Scanned Book pdf

http://thesnowfields.com/manuals/LearnMusicWithSynths1974.pdf

Or

Typed  reproduction -

https://archive.org/stream/synthmanual_Learning_Music_With_Synthesizers/Learning_Music_With_Synthesizers_djvu.txt

You'll have to put your thinking caps on guys and really LEARN.
( not just turn knobs ) as we guitarists are used to.

All of this aside... And for the future and better sales of the SY 300.

I'd like to see Boss put some Sound Designers to work and release more usable patches.
For instance..... Melotron , like the Mel9 .... And a 6 String to 12 String patch re. Digiitech Mosaic.

I'm working on my own now, but I'm new to the SY 300 and it will take some time.
I need to get used to the new interface and learning curve with each module.



It sounds good, but we'll need to raise the tempo up one octave.

Rhcole

I'll consider your technique, Chrish. I never use a strap, I only play seated. That experience put me off the 13 pin because it was pretty embarrassing.

Honestly, the SY-300 is what I was HOPING beyond all hope would have been in the GP-10. Before we knew that the "Osc synth" was such a piece of crap tracking-wise, I thought that it would be a real 3 OSC akin to the SY-300.

Similarly, I think Roland should have had a 13 pin input on the SY. They could have made it work like it does now but also included a 13 pin input, and it would have been a towering breakthrough.

But, that's Roland for you.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Avatar on July 08, 2016, 01:08:09 PM
I received my SY 300 last week.

Maybe my guitars are set up better or correctly .
Maybe I play chords cleaner than others, but I love this no hex pickup synth.
I have no problems with clean chord reproduction .

I learned synth programming on an ARP Odyssey and an ARP Avatar ( the same animal ).
People having trouble with the SY 300 , need to learn how to creat a sound from its basic form.
I recommend the book that helped me learn. It's called " Learning Music with Synthesizers"
By David Friend. The book is out of print , BUT ! You can download it for Free on a .pdf

The Actual scanned book ( Which  I prefer  )

Scanned Book pdf

http://thesnowfields.com/manuals/LearnMusicWithSynths1974.pdf

Or

Typed  reproduction -

https://archive.org/stream/synthmanual_Learning_Music_With_Synthesizers/Learning_Music_With_Synthesizers_djvu.txt

You'll have to put your thinking caps on guys and really LEARN.
( not just turn knobs ) as we guitarists are used to.

All of this aside... And for the future and better sales of the SY 300.

I'd like to see Boss put some Sound Designers to work and release more usable patches.
For instance..... Melotron , like the Mel9 .... And a 6 String to 12 String patch re. Digiitech Mosaic.

I'm working on my own now, but I'm new to the SY 300 and it will take some time.
I need to get used to the new interface and learning curve with each module.

I don't think setting up guitars is a problem , I've played since 72 and guitar synths since Hagström and then Roland came out with their first ones , and I've programmed synths since mini moog korg ms20 , oberheim , prophet V waldorf microwave Roland d-550 , used Roland midi converters as well as casio guitar , zeta mirror even tried the infamous or famous synthaxe etc and I've all the Vgs , Gp10 and Sy300 and it's only the last who can't hack the chords I want to play. My guess , it needs a hex input
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

vanceg

Yeah, I don't see what the problem with using a hex pickup is.  I'd like a hex pickup on every guitar I ever use.  I have no desire to use standard pickups anymore.  Sure, we can try really, really hard to develop a system which can basically "pick apart" the notes fro 6 strings  out of a standard monophonic signal.  That's impressive.  But WHY?  Why not simply use a hex system?  From a technical standpoint it's absurd to use a monophonic pickup.

Of course I actually DO understand why Roland (and EHX) chose to use standard monophonic pickup signals to power their new "guitar synth" devices:  99.9% of the guitars in the world are equipped with only monophonic pickups and there is a stigma about hex pickups. I just hope we can get over that.  Just start putting hex pickups in instruments.  Start making hex processors. 

There is growth in this market segment- it seems that more people are putting hex pickups on guitars, and there seem to be a few more options for processors... but it's still small.   I'm just hoping it grows and we don't HAVE to keep banging our heads against tech issues like trying to pull individual notes out of a polyphonic signal.

Kevin M

Quote from: vanceg on July 11, 2016, 02:49:28 PM
Yeah, I don't see what the problem with using a hex pickup is.  I'd like a hex pickup on every guitar I ever use.  I have no desire to use standard pickups anymore.  Sure, we can try really, really hard to develop a system which can basically "pick apart" the notes fro 6 strings  out of a standard monophonic signal.  That's impressive.  But WHY?  Why not simply use a hex system?  From a technical standpoint it's absurd to use a monophonic pickup.

Of course I actually DO understand why Roland (and EHX) chose to use standard monophonic pickup signals to power their new "guitar synth" devices:  99.9% of the guitars in the world are equipped with only monophonic pickups and there is a stigma about hex pickups. I just hope we can get over that.  Just start putting hex pickups in instruments.  Start making hex processors. 

There is growth in this market segment- it seems that more people are putting hex pickups on guitars, and there seem to be a few more options for processors... but it's still small.   I'm just hoping it grows and we don't HAVE to keep banging our heads against tech issues like trying to pull individual notes out of a polyphonic signal.
Yep!

Avatar

Well it's good to see you're all around my age.

I have some expensive vintage guitars. ( our age ) Damn I'm considered Vintage  ::) that I play
and never attach anything too.
It sounds good, but we'll need to raise the tempo up one octave.

JiveTurkey

I kind of (over)stated my position earlier in this thread. I will say that if the SY had an additional Hex option while still retaining the 1/4" input and associated processing capabilities of that signal; I'd be good. For me; the 13 pin was another cable needing to run across the floor. With the SY; I can finally go wireless and THAT is an awesome thing in my book. I am not sure what kinds of jazzy chords are being garbled with this guy as it works with what I throw at it. Again; I'm not playing anything remotely complex so much; so there is that.




Brak(E)man

Most any chord with a minor or major second
Or Amin 7+5 , 13-9 , emin9maj7-5
or fourth stapling beadg etc etc
not to mention clusters

it should at least handle am7add4 but it doesn't
at least not my SY 300
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Smash

Wow, some proper fighting talk in some posts in this thread...

Personally, for me I've still not heard anything from the SY that I think is superior to VG99 or actually remotely close to what's possible with a HEX pup - for example if you combine a VG99 with FTP driving Omnisphere it's like comparing a 3D 360 degree Imax experience with a 50" plasma...

That said, now that the man who managed to coach drums out of the VG99 has taken the SY under his wing I'm holding off final sentencing just in case he pulls off another miracle!

chrish

I'm looking forward to using the vg99 with two sy-300. I've heard good things about omnisphear, it's been around for awhile. The sy-300 has not, and as more of the master programers come online with it, then we'll see that we've only just now scratched the surface of what that machine is capable of doing. I think that the passionate cries (good debate) in favor of the hex pickup is in the hopes that somehow roland is listening. Many folks do not want to see roland's products dumbed down in favor of reduced performance.   With the sy, roland took one step forward and two steps backward. There's no reason why we can't have a 1/4 and a hex input working together on the same unit (except for some stange marketing ploy). While bashing out metal saw wave lead sounds is fun, it certainly doesn't require clarity and from the preset list, it appears that was the target. Ambient music,imo, in particular, benifits from clear,clean distinct voices. So does jazz.

Avatar

I'm all for premium sound...
Let's see what Roland has coming for the SY 300. I just received mine last week.
So, my reference can't be from the point of others that own what I haven't  heard.
Maybe software upgrades in the future will meet the expectations of other
knowledgeable Roland users.
It sounds good, but we'll need to raise the tempo up one octave.

Elantric

QuoteMaybe software upgrades in the future will meet the expectations of other
knowledgeable Roland users.

Boss SY-300  is pushing 15 months old now

In the fine Roland / Boss tradition - I would not anticipate or expect any additional new firmware updates for the Boss SY-300. 

Avatar

Quote from: Elantric on July 13, 2016, 04:02:54 PM
Boss SY-300  is pushing 15 months old now

In the fine Roland / Boss tradition - I would not anticipate or expect any additional new firmware updates for the Boss SY-300.

Damn.... That's sad ... Hope they're reading and make an exception.....

From what I've been reading here, you faithful Rolland / Boss users aren't real happy with the SY 300's
short comings. That might relegate this to the way of the ARP Avatar...

Roland are you listening ?????
Look into what your client base has to say!
It sounds good, but we'll need to raise the tempo up one octave.