Review: Line-6 Variax vs Roland VG99/GR55/Boss GP-10

Started by whippinpost91850, November 29, 2011, 09:23:52 AM

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mbenigni

QuoteThe GR55 & VG99 offer an extraordinary array of options, but when considering just the guitar modeling, they are limited by the fact that they can't be controlled like a guitar.

When the GK3 arrived and was more or less indistinguishable from the GK2A, I was baffled.  A 5-position pickup selector switch should have been the new feature that defined the GK3.  Same said for the GC-1 strat vs. the Roland-Ready strat.

mbenigni

QuoteFinally, a new option in the guitar modeling arena has presented itself with the Peavey AT-200 AutoTune guitar.  Not only does this guitar offer perfect intonation across the entire fretboard and is dirt cheap, but has the most intuitive, easy approach to alternate tunings I've sen so far. When I tried it at NAMM in January it worked flawlessly.  Obviously for $500, the quality of the guitar leaves somewhat to be desired, but that is ok.

I'm pretty excited about this guitar.  I hope they can deliver on that (surprisingly low) street price.  Did they indicate a release date at NAMM?

QuoteIt also offers a MIDI connection to be able to connect to a breakout box & be able to be updated.

I wonder if they'll ever consider a pitch-to-MIDI option for external synths.  Seems like it would be a walk in the park given that they've already got alt. tuning happening.

Now_And_Then


germanicus

The Peavey AT200 guitar IS what Antares (Antares was the company who came up with AutoTune) was working on. I believe Parker also licensed the Antares tech for a higher end guitar.

FWIW in the JTV, you can easily adjust the modelled guitars to match the Magnetic pickup volume in workbench. Very easy to do.

The peavey looks interesting, but the jury is out on how good the actual modelling is. Additionally, it looks like you will need some sort of midi foot controller if you want to use stored custom tunings (im not sure of this though). The Peavey also uses piezo's, so if you are particular about heavy gain palm muting, it could be problematic.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

Now_And_Then



Doesn't the  VG-8 have an auto-tune capability? (If it is there, I have never used it.)

Elantric

Yes - the VG-8 did have auto tune - it worked well too.

oddguitar

Quote from: germanicus on September 18, 2012, 09:50:08 AM
The Peavey AT200 guitar IS what Antares (Antares was the company who came up with AutoTune) was working on. I believe Parker also licensed the Antares tech for a higher end guitar.

FWIW in the JTV, you can easily adjust the modelled guitars to match the Magnetic pickup volume in workbench. Very easy to do.

The peavey looks interesting, but the jury is out on how good the actual modelling is. Additionally, it looks like you will need some sort of midi foot controller if you want to use stored custom tunings (im not sure of this though). The Peavey also uses piezo's, so if you are particular about heavy gain palm muting, it could be problematic.

germanicus...you're right that the Peavey AT-200 will suffer from the same palm-muting issues as the Variax....hence my "no perfect modeling guitar" mantra ;)   It is limited regarding being able to store custom tunings, but at NAMM they told me that custom tunings will be footswitchable with the breakout box via MIDI.  The breakout box will also power the AT-200 for battery-less operation, much like the Variax.  Switching tunings using different fingerings is a breeze and very quick....certainly quicker than programming it.  Plus the perfect intonation is an added bonus.  I have a guitar with the Evertune bridge (www.evertune.com) on it and it has really really good intonation (it could only be better with a TrueTemperament neck), so I can appreciate having a perfectly tuned and intonated guitar.

As far as Parker goes, I was able to try the AutoTune Maxxfly at NAMM after lots of prodding at the Parker booth (It supposedly wasn't ready for prime-time, so they only wanted the product demo guy playing it).  It is a very cool concept.  My only beef, outside of the ludicrous price-point, are the ergonomics of the controls.  They were unmarked, making it such that I had trouble understanding what control did what, and what I had selected.  Keep in mind, this was a NAMM demo model, so I'm sure it is going to get tweaked before the production model is released.  However, outside of the demo guitar and a blurb on their website, Parker has yet to offer any additional info as to availability since the debut in January, so I'm not 100% convinced that they will actually offer this guitar to the public.  It doesn't take a lot of market research to realize that the market for $8,000 AutoTune Parker guitars has to be very very small, especially when you have a competitor offering most of the same technology in a $500 guitar.

Speaking of Variax....on the Sweetwater website (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=variax&sb=popular&pn=1) there are pics of the newest editions of the Variax, which include 3 singlecoil JTV-69's and dual P90 JTV-59's.  Good to see the market for modeling guitars expanding....variety is the spice of life!

-oddguitar

oddguitar

Quote from: Elantric on September 18, 2012, 02:53:39 PM
Yes - the VG-8 did have auto tune - it worked well too.

Elantric....any idea why the auto tune feature wasn't carried on into the VG88 & VG99?  It seems like a very cool feature to have, especially if it worked well.

-oddguitar

Elantric

#58
QuoteElantric....any idea why the auto tune feature wasn't carried on into the VG88 & VG99?

No idea - its a shame too. I believe it was due to the fact that you had a choice of Auto Tune - OR Alt Tuning - but not Both at once on the old VG-8,

and the guys in charge at Roland today probably felt it was under utilized and decided to remove that feature.

Same goes for the VG-8's HRM Synth mode - and as was prior mentioned the old Vari Guitar mode from VG-8 / VG-88 - and the VG-88's  Gretsch FilterTron Modelling Mode  all are "missing" from todays products. (VG-99 / GR-55)


rumrill

I've been a Variax user for 7 yrs & a Pod user for almost 20 yrs going back to the little red kidney box. I now use a James Tyler Variax (as well as a bunch of real guitars) & an HD500 thru a Stagesource L2M. I've been a pro guitarist for 40 yrs - it's all I do - and have used Line 6 gear extensively, both live & for recording. I play mostly roots-based music - country, jazz, blues, rockabilly etc - with clean to moderately-overdriven sound; I would almost never use a hi-gain amp model.

I got a Roland GR-55 a week ago and have been messing with the sounds since then to the point of losing sleep.
I just want to talk about the modelled git sounds on the GR-55 - not the synth sounds - since they can be directly compared to the Line 6 gear. I'm not talking about ease of programming, interfaces, patch-switching capabilities or any of those other things that would influence a buyer's decision to go with Line 6 or Roland. Just SOUND!

GUITAR MODELLING: My opinion: GR-55 BLOWS Variax AWAY! I've been struggling with my JTV for over a year trying to get a realistic-sounding elec guitar. Example: Tele bridge pup. The closest I could get was something that kind of sounds like a Tele - you could tell what they were "trying" to do - but definitely not a good Tele. And there was always some weirdness about the models, like notes trailing off into warbling/yodelling sounds, or not having proper sustain, or fret buzz where none exists, or wound & unwound strings sounding like they're on 2 different gits! Switching back & forth between JTV's modelled git & its own magnetic pups always revealed how unrealistic the modelled gits are. I always noticed that in all the YouTube Vax demos, nobody would ever play very slowly and let us hear how the notes sustain/decay. IMPORTANT:I believe playing slow & clean w/o a lot of effects ESPECIALLY compression! is the real test of modelling quality for both gits & amps.
Another example: Strat, all pickups. Vax sounds nothing whatsoever like a Strat to me, especially the in-between pup settings. GR-55 has Strat absolutely nailed!

I should add that there are a few Vax models I think are very good and that I don't hesitate to use (altho I haven't tried to tweak the corresponding GR-55 patches yet so I can't compare). They are the acoustic 12-strings, banjo, sitar and National models. Acoustic 6-strings were much better with pre-Tyler Variaxes. As for elec git models, I haven't found ONE that doesn't sound way worse than the real thing.
Variax's tuning capabilities, while hugely improved on the Tyler gits, are so riddled with "issues" as to be unusable to me.

GR-55 guitar models: I'm super-familiar with Teles - I have a great one - and how they respond so I ran the GR-55 Tele model, each pup separately & then together, thru several amp models including clean Twin, AC30 both clean & gritty, and Matchless overdrive. Even w/o amp tweaking this Tele sounds so real to me that I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a gig (which I have already, last Friday).

Everything about it - roundness & fullness of tone, sustain, evenness of tone across all 6 strings, faithfulness to the real thing, lack of anything resembling artifacts or yodelling (including when detuned), tone when lowering the git's volume control - is so clearly superior on the GR-55 to Variax that I probably won't be using Vax for git models anymore.
As to the amp models - comparing HD500 & Gr-55 - that's another topic. Let me just say briefly that my 1st impression is that GR-55 compares very favorably to HD500.

thebrushwithin

Welcome to the land of COSM!

mbenigni

@rumrill - I've never played a JTV, but I have years of experience with the first gen Variax products, and at least where that tech is concerned I agree - the GR55 COSM instrument modeling sounds much more musical to me.  I was left with the sense that basing Variax tones on piezos rather than magnetic pickups was an Achilles' heel for Line 6.  There's an EQ or dynamic signature there that isn't as natural as what I hear from the GK3 + GR55.  But there are other variables in terms of instrument construction, software... and of course personal preference.

That said, I think most people here would say JTV > COSM > 1st gen Variax.

Elantric

I own most all of the modelers - There are too many variables to categorize a clear winner with each tech. Also in regards to Tyler Variax - its important to know which firmware version of the specific Guitar/PU model is being judged.
For example some PU models that sound too thin alone, can actually work when feeding a different Amp type or DSP Amp model.

If anything can be shown with these modeling systems  - it reveals that you now have several orders of magnitude of settings which if not configured just right can easily deliver bad tone. So compared to a normal guitar  / tube amp setup, the odds are much higher that your new DSP Modeling system will sound like junk. However once you understand what your tools can do, when you do find the sweet spot, it can be very efficient to have great tones in a small form factor like the GR-55.

So its important to study and spend time with what ever setup you own, and realize that next time you think your rig sounds bad, realize that somebody else with better skills and experience can typically coax far better sounds out your exact rig than you can.

   

Kevin M

My only comment...don't send a modeler to do an acoustic guitar's job!  Between a Variax, VG88, and VG99 I have yet to hear an acoustic patch that is even reasonably convincing.

Toby Krebs

Quote from: Elantric on September 18, 2012, 02:53:39 PM
Yes - the VG-8 did have auto tune - it worked well too.

@Elantric-I second that motion. The VG8s' auto tune feature was a lifesaver at my first 4 year run of employment at a large church with full production(lights-stand on this mark-in ear Aviom monitors etc...) as I had very little time to do any tuning or even touch it up during rehearsals and services. Wish my GR55s' had this feature.

Virtual Madness

#65
If only we had the Line 6 workbench editing capabilities, with the JTV guitar interface, using a GK pickup and COSM modeling, with the Autotune feature, we would have it made.  :)

I don't have any Line 6 products yet, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but did they ever update the workbench editing software to include 3 movable pickups?

If they didn't, it makes me wonder what both Line 6 and Roland are thinking leaving out such an obvious feature on their guitar modeling products.

Royce
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

mbenigni

QuoteI don't have any Line 6 products yet, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but did they ever update the workbench editing software to include 3 movable pickups?

Yes - assuming I understand the question correctly - that's been supported in Workbench for years.  (You can even put pickups in physically impossible places, e.g. halfway up the fingerboard, or right on top of one another, to get unusual tones.

Elantric

#67
I think he's asking for three Virtual Pickups

* All three on at the same time

and

* All three movable.

Not available that I know.

As well as not able to duplicate the sound of my DiPinto Galaxie IV Surf guitar with 4 single coils in my Avatar on the left. 



Or this guitar from my past

Elantric

#68
Of course this is the Grandanddy of Moveable pickups on a production guitar  - use it to see how well (or bad) the DSP Modeling versions in Line6 / Roland reproduces the physics of a real guitar with moveable pickups.


1970s Dan Armstrong London with sliding pickup


http://guitarz.blogspot.com/2012/01/1970s-dan-armstrong-london-with-sliding.html





And they made a limited run of the London with Dual sliding pickups

Here is a rarely seen Dan Armstrong London from the early 1970s, quite an unique guitar with its characteristic sliding humbucker. The body is an hybrid of Les Paul Doublecut and Rickenbacker 325 cut out of mahogany, the bridge only looks like a wrap-around one but is one of Dan Armstrong innovations, being connected to the ramp on which the pickup slides.

You know, I could tell much about this guitar but I would just summarize what I found on the very complete website dedicated to Dan Arsmtrong's life with guitars, that I invite you to visit.

http://www.danarmstrong.org/londonguitar.html
And for those who would not know who Dan Armstrong is, you probably know how most famous guitar, the plexiglass model released by Ampeg and played by all the Rolling Stones members on their 1969 US tour (and resulting film and record).





FWIW - Bowie's is available for $41k in Paris

http://www.paulfrasercollectibles.com/News/Music-Memorabilia/David-Bowie's-Armstrong-guitar-valued-at-$41,000-in-Paris/15437.page#.UvP1wP2XNFw

David Bowie's Armstrong guitar valued at $41,000 in Paris



A David Bowie-signed Dan Armstrong guitar is expected to see strong bids on November 7 in Paris, as the lead lot in Artcurial's It's Only Rock 'N' Roll auction.

David Bowie signed guitar
The guitar was used by Bowie to write songs for the Station to Station album

The sale is reported to be the first of its kind in France, and certainly the first from Artcurial. Among 350 lots of costumes, art, photographs and memorabilia celebrating rock culture, the Bowie-signed guitar is valued at $27,350-41,025.

The guitar was signed by David Bowie in 1991, with "Bowie 91" written in black marker on the body. Bowie explains in an accompanying letter: "I've had this Dan Armstrong guitar since the early 70s. I wrote most of the songs for Station to Station on it. Happy playing!"

Also included is a further signed photograph of Bowie with the guitar.

Dan Armstrong is a highly respected guitar maker, who began producing his own custom models following his work for the Ampeg Company. His guitars were particularly favoured by the top rock musicians of the 1960s and 1970s.

mbenigni

I stand corrected.  Or amended, anyway.  :)  The DePinto Galaxie IV and that Ernie Ball are awesome!

Virtual Madness

#70
Quote from: Elantric on February 06, 2014, 12:39:00 PM
I think he's asking for three Virtual Pickups

* All three on at the same time

and

* All three movable.

Not available that I know.

As well as not able to duplicate the sound of my DiPinto Galaxie IV Surf guitar with 4 single coils in my Avatar on the left.
(Forgive me for editing the pictures out of your quoted post. (No sense using up server space when the pictures are already in your original post)

Regarding virtual pickups, that IS what I meant! I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.

WOW Steve, that DiPinto is WAY cool, man. Are those still available?
I've never owned a guitar with FOUR pickups. (and all independently selectable to boot)

Also, that Danelectro is awesome...I remember those...I always thought the sliding pickup idea was WAY ahead of it's time. (come to think of it, it STILL is)

Your posts have made me change my mind: ALL modeling solutions should have as many virtual pickups as the user wants, and all be independently selectable, in OR out of phase. (no, I'm not asking for much)

Oh, I should mention the Variax vs VG99/GR55 or I'll be guilty of hijacking!

Royce  :)
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

alexmcginness

Quote from: kmaus10 on February 05, 2014, 10:31:11 PM
My only comment...don't send a modeler to do an acoustic guitar's job!  Between a Variax, VG88, and VG99 I have yet to hear an acoustic patch that is even reasonably convincing.

   I would have second that as well and, that, has been my opinion of the acoustic models untill I put a GK-3 on my Takamine acoustic and triggered the acoustic models with it. I find a big difference. Acoustic models are now very convincing when triggered this way. I use Martin Marquis light guage strings that have a wound third and I think the modeled acoustics sound wonderful.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Virtual Madness

#72
I have to back Alex up on this.

His acoustic sounds (which you can see/hear on YouTube) are really nice.

Royce
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

gumtown

Quote from: alexmcginness on February 06, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
I put a GK-3 on my Takamine acoustic and triggered the acoustic models with it.
I find a big difference.
Acoustic models are now very convincing when triggered this way.
It just doesn't seem quite right, that you are playing an acoustic/GK3 to get a good model'ed acoustic tone ???
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#74
String gauge makes a big difference for delivering a convincing acoustic guitar sound - regardless of the instrument the GK-3 is mounted on.

Many Acoustic players use 13-56 gauge strings, which are more stable and in tune throughout all vibrations that occur after the initial plectrum / pick strikes the strings.

For example if you perform one hard downward strum with a thick Pick on an Electric Guitar strung with .009-.042 Slinky strings, think in slow motion what is occurring - The downward thick plectrum deflects the strings 3/8" of an inch and the moment the string begins vibration - the pitch is briefly quite sharp at the moment the pick leaves the string (same physics as making a blues solo "pitch bend") .

However, the physical string characteristics are very different when the strings are thicker, thus this behavior of the strings sounding sharp during the initial pick attack during hard downward strums is diminished. Our ears hear the difference string gauge makes.  Thicker strings = more stable pitch = more believable COSM Modeled Acoustic guitar tone


Back in 97, when I could not gain access to my acoustic guitar, I simply strung up my GK-2A equipped Strat with Martin Marquis 13-56 bronze strings, and used an acoustic COSM preset on my VG-8 and landed in more believable acoustic guitar territory  - compared to if I had attempted these same VG-8 COSM Acoustic Modeled guitar tones using my Strat GK-2A strung with normal 10-46 electric strings   

Try it