Godin XTSA

Started by kennisrussell, May 17, 2011, 02:00:13 PM

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metale

Hi everyone.

I'm trading a guita for a ~2005 xTSA. Not so much for the synth capabilities (as I have no synth gear or desire to spend on one) but because it seems like a quality guitar and I like the design. The piezo should be nice, too.

Background: I always tweak the electronics, install pickups and try to improve wiring. Could really use that 3rd pot and 2 toggle slots for the magnetic pickups's wiring.

My question, is the piezo stuff independent from the synth stuff? Can I remove the synth board, etc to make room for the eventual push-pull pot and leave the piezo working?

50s wiring, CTS pots, PIO caps... I'm already drolling :D

Regards

admin

#176

TheParasite

#177
I recently started having an issue with the electric side of my xtSA. It seems the volume, on all five pu positions, has dramatically decreased. I can't get a balance of output between the acoustic and electric sides.  On the board Sunday I had to max out the channel gain, and almost max out the volume fader.  This was so bad that two mins before Mass started I decided to ditch the xtSA and go with my trusty Dean acoustic/electric.  Has anyone else experienced this issue?[/size][/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText][/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText]Is there maybe a hidden battery? I changed out the one for the acoustic side but it didn't help.  (Duh...acoustic isn't electric, Steve!)[/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText][/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText]FYI, I did do a search on the board for "Godin low volume electric" which returned two results...neither of which applied here. [/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText][/font][/color][/font][/size][font=.SF UI Text][/color][font=.SFUIText]Thanks![/font][/color][/font][/size]
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

#178
QuoteI recently started having an issue with the electric side of my xtSA. It seems the volume, on all five pu positions, has dramatically decreased.

Check your 13 pin cable

The Godin xtSA internal battery (behind the round cover plate on the rear) is not utilized when the GK 13 pin cable is connected

The RMC piezo is indeed your source for GR55 guitar modeling. Assign the "GK type" as "RMC Piezo" and complete the GR55 GK guitar setup as described in the GR55 owners manual

Read the 8 pages of xtSA info
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.0

and read

Godin + GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9080.0

TheParasite

Hi Adam.  Thanks for the info.


Question, though:  For testing this evening I was only running the individual acoustic and electric output jacks.  Then I ran the combo output jack.  I received the same results. 


When I ran the 13 pin yesterday, it worked fine, but still had the electric issues.  So, how does the 13 pin cable effect the other two?


Thank you
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

#180
QuoteFor testing this evening I was only running the individual acoustic and electric output jacks. 

In that case you will not be able to use the GR-55 or gain access to the xtSA the Piezo hex output  - both require the Gk 13 pin cable alone ( inserting cable plugs  into the 1/4" jacks on the xtSA will disable those signals from being transmitted on the GK 13 pin cable

If you do not use the Gk13 pin cable - verify you have a fresh 9V Battery - located behind the Slider pots  - remove the round cover on the rear to access the Godin 9V  battery

Read the 8 pages of xtSA info
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.0

TheParasite

#181
Thanks, admsustainiac.  I read those 8 pages, and then at least 3 other threads that were linked in that thread.  Before I go into detail as to what's happening, let me tell you the setup from my xtSA.

ACOUSTIC/MIX 1/4" - Direct to board.

ELECTRIC 1/4" - Usually direct to board, sometimes into Line 6 POD.
13-pin to GR-55 with 1/4" stereo output to board.
13-pin GUITAR OUT usually to VoiceTone Correct.

This is what's happening.

Acoustic output is normal volume.
-55 output is normal volume.
Electric output is very low volume.
- When running direct into board I've had to turn the gain up significantly more than any other input on the board, to 80% or more.
- When running into POD it doesn't help much because the input level is so low.  Fact is, the POD has to be turned up to about 80%, and then you can turn the gain on the board down...but to no less than 50%.

These were my test today, along with results.

- Single cable out from ELECTRIC direct to amp: Low volume.
- Single cable out from ACOUSTIC/MIX direct to amp:  Acoustic fine, electric low volume.

This is where the plot thickens...

Running the same configuration as above (with or without the 13-pin connected), and only turning up the electric pups, there is the absolute minimum volume from them (in all 5 switch positions) UNTIL the volume knob is turned up to 7 (if it had 1-10 on it).  I had to turn the amp up to about 60% just to hear it till that 7 level kicks in.

Now, just when you think you've heard it all...

Again, in that same config with or without the 13-pin, with the acoustic's volume up just enough that you can actually blend the acoustic & electric tones, when I turn the electric's volume to 8 the entire tone turns quite tin-ish (or brittle or thin) sounding.  You can easily hear when it happens...almost like all bass has dropped out of the tone/EQ.

This has been going on for a little over a month.  But I really only noticed the tonal change this past Sunday, and that was because I had to change the battery in the xtSA.  I know they were normal volume when I received the guitar.  I'm not sure when this volume issue came up, though, but it has been that way for a few months.

So, if you or anyone else has heard of this issue before, please chime in.

And I cannot figure out for the life of me why my posts are having such problems with the formatting...
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

Elantric

Contact RMC or Godin for repair

see links in my blog in my  signature

TheParasite

Did to both already this morn.  But, you guys being the ultimate authority  ;)   on this equipment type I had hopes one of you would say, "There's a simple fix to this......"   :(
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

TheParasite

ELANTIC wrote:  My first order of business was modifying ALL GR-55 User Presets to enable the use of the Godin's Normal pickups and enable use of the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch

Are you saying that you enabled each and every patch...as in all 120 of the stock patches?

Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

TheParasite

Both Godin and Richard were quick to respond.  Here's what they stated.


Richard:
1)  Please note that the Electric jack is a passive Mags jack, [/size]so make sure that the signal is going to a high-impedance input, [/size]typically upwards of 100K ohms and preferably around 1 Megohm.[/size]2)  When you're using the Electric Jack, the mag signal is disconnected from the onboard Mag buffer, and the only things connected to the Mag signal are the 5-way switch, the Mag Tone control, the Mag Volume control and the Tip terminal of the output jack.


Based upon that we discussed Active DI boxes. With Richard's help I've decided on getting the Radial Engineering J48.

Michael at Godin:
There are two issues with that set up.
First, the signal from the electric 1/4" output jack should be sent to an electric guitar amplifier, not to a soundboard.
Second, Line 6 amps and pedals are not compatible with the xtSA's electronics.


So, I guess I'm going to sell off the ol' Line 6 amp and the associated POD v2.  Nah.  Who am I kidding...


Thanks, gents, for all your help and direction.  This may be an old thread, and I may be an old(er) guy, but to me, I'm loving this "new" tech!
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

#186
Quote from: TheParasite on October 06, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
ELANTIC wrote:  My first order of business was modifying ALL GR-55 User Presets to enable the use of the Godin's Normal pickups and enable use of the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch

Are you saying that you enabled each and every patch...as in all 120 of the stock patches?

Correct - because normal PU's are "OFF" by design  on all but three factory presets  - which are copied in the GR-55 User program area, where these can be edited./
the Factory GR-55 presets are frozen and can not be edited  / altered

read


GR-55 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137


* How to enable "Normal Guitar Pickups" and make the GK-3 Guitar/Mix/Synth three-way switch work with the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0


Make your "Guitar/Mix/Synth" Switch work with GR-55 Work (step by step)
The first headache every new  GR-55 owner may experience is getting the guitar mounted three way Guitar/Mix/GK Synth switch on his 13 pin preamp by Roland, RMC, Ghost, etc  to work and allow the Normal pickups to heard !
To debug achieving Normal Guitar PU Sound with one 13 pin cable feeding the GR-55 , First Try these Factory GR-55 Presets which already have the normal PU enabled  - your Normal Guitar pickups should be heard when you move the guitar mounted three way"Guitar/mix/Synth" switch to Guitar and have Guitar volume turned up.
On the GR-55, Select the "Lead" style. Then select these presets:
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-1 For Normal PU L1 = for Normal PU L1
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-2 For Normal PU L2 = for Normal PU L2
GR-55 LEAD Preset 30-3 For Normal PU L3 = for Normal PU L3

If you do not hear your normal guitar sound using these patches above, there is a problem with either your guitar, GK-3 Installation, or you forgot to use the short 1/4" cable between your guitar and the GK-3 1/4" Input jack, or you have  a bad 13 pin cable - or there is a GR-55 Control Assignment which is blocking the Normal Guitar Audio



Roland ships recent GK13 processors (VG-99, GR-55) with half baked "Factory presets" that lack proper support for GK-3 Three way mix switch. This is a major pain and every GR-55 user who wants the GK-3 Three way mix switch to work must manually reprogram EVERY PRESET!
   
Roland ships great hardware bogged down by very sloppy Burned into ROM Factory presets that frankly should never have existed, Id gladly give them all up to free up more memory space for my own presets that allow the GK-3 Three way mix switch to actually work for Normal pickups too.



Next post is related to the above,

* Roland US-20 A/B Selector BUG (Importance of GK-VOL Assignment)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2246.0


How to make the GK-3 three-way switch work like the GR-20, when connected to the GR-55:

QuotePaults wrote>
1) Go to System

PEDAL/GK CTL (enter)

Tab over to VOL
    If you want to be able to hear the normal guitar when your switch is in the "GUITAR" position, change GK VOL to "TONE VOLUME", and turn NORMAL PU "OFF".  With the switch in MIX, you'll hear both the GK knob output, and your normal guitar output, with independent control for each.  In GK position, you'll just hear COSM/PCM sounds, and in GUITAR, just the normal guitar.

The other advantage to "TONE VOLUME" is it lets the guitar models be much more responsive and expressive.

The GK settings can also be changed per patch, but this is based on the factory settings. I'm used to having my VG set up this way, so this setting may stay global for me.

admin

#187
QuoteMichael at Godin:
There  . .  issues with that set up.

, Line 6 amps and pedals are not compatible with the xtSA's electronics.

Id differ with that statement - of course you can NOT connect the Roland GK 13 pin connection , but you can plug the xtSA 1/4" Mag PU output into any High-z Impedance guitar amp, including those from Roland, Fender, Marshall, Vox,  Dumble, and Line-6   


might benefit  from this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_guitar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_(music_technology)


TheParasite

I've read those.  I was just going back through them earlier and was astounded you had the patience to do that for all the patches.
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

TheParasite

#189
QuoteId differ with that statement - of course you can NOT connect the Roland GK 13 pin connection , but you can plug the xtSA 1/4" Mag PU output into any High-z Impedance guitar amp, including those from Roland, Fender, Marshall, Vox,  Dumble, and Line-6   




I consider you guys the experts on this equipment...even more so than the manufacturers to a certain point.  Buuuut, I'm going to have to side with Godin on this one.  First, my Line 6 Flextone II is one of the first year models -- late '90s maybe?  The POD v2 I bought shortly after that, not more than a couple of years.  So, in the digital world, those things are ancient.


But, this is really why I'm going to side with Godin:


After Godin sent me that note, I went back to playing around with the Godin/POD combination.  I was continuing to have problems including dropping out completely from what setting I had it on.  At times I had to turn it off then back on, or click to another amp/effect and back, and then that tone I wanted would come back.  Not wanting to give up on the POD (it's handy as heck for what I do), I plugged in my Dean Evo.  I had zero problems running through the POD.  None.  Zilch.  Went back to the Godin, switched cables, outputs, dang near everything on it, but I would still have issues.




So, as crazy as it may seem, I think they are correct. 

Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

And i still say if you are having drop outs when feeding the 1/4" normal mag PU output into any guitar amp, try a different 1/4" guitar cable or have your Godin serviced

But believe who you want to believe.

TheParasite

Meant to post that I somewhat resolved this issue.  I have the Radial J58 first inline from the electric 1/4" output of the XTsa. From there to the board and it's perfect; to the Line 6 amp and any other item it works well.  But, to the Line 6 POD...it still has issues.  :-(

But I can live with that...
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

#192
QuoteElectric output is very low volume.
- When running direct into board I've had to turn the gain up significantly more than any other input on the board, to 80% or more.
Most Board's 1/4' inputs are only 10K Input impedance  = will severely load down the xtSA's passive mag pickup signal from the 1/4" "Electric" jack.

( xtSA mag PU works best into a 1Meg Input impedance IMHO)



Quote from:  TheParasite on May 23, 2018, 06:45:48 AM
Meant to post that I somewhat resolved this issue.  I have the Radial J58 first inline from the electric 1/4" output of the XTsa.


Perhaps you mean Radial J48?
http://www.radialeng.com/pdfs/manual-j48.pdf
http://www.radialeng.com/j48-specs.php

xtSA's passive "MAG PUs use the " 1/4" ELECTRIC Output jack.


The J48 has an input impedance of 220k ohm

This will "load" the xtSA Mag PU signal down ( from the 1/4" "Electric" output )  - ( xtSA mag PU works best into a 1Meg Input impedance IMHO)

But the big issue is the xtSA 1/4" outputs are all switching jacks and if you plug anything into the xtSA's 1/4" "Electric" output jack, it will disconnect and isolate the xtSA's Mag PU signal and prevent it being sent to the xtSA's  internal RMC  preamp and then down the GK13 pin cable to the connected GK processors


Likewise if you plug anything into the xtSA's 1/4" "MIX/ACOUSTIC" output jack, it will disconnect and isolate the xtSA's Mono Piezo PU signal and prevent it being sent down the GK13 pin cable to the connected GK processors 
This is explained on the Godin xtSA manual
http://www.godinguitars.com/xtsa.pdf





As a test, try removing ALL 1/4" cables from the xtSA, and use only one  GK 13 pin cable to your GK processor - and you will be able to hear all pickups from the xtSA when the three position switch is in the "center "MIX" position
* Mag PU volume is rotary
* Mono Piezo PU is a Slider
* Synth / VGuitar modeling  is a Rotary   

This is explained on the Godin xtSA manual
http://www.godinguitars.com/xtsa.pdf


TheParasite

"Perhaps you mean Radial J48?"

Nope.  I have the newest model, the J58.  It has the disco-ball connection so the ball turns in conjunction with your picking on the strings.  Pretty cool, actually.  Just not sure it's working out during our Catholic Masses....    :D

Yeah, J48.  Slip of the finger to the "5." 

I'll run your test by this weekend and see what I get.  Then report my findings.
Godin XTSa (a pretty one)

admin

Quote from: 47Flyer on July 17, 2016, 02:41:14 PM
Hello Folks,

A bit off topic but this does concern my Godin Xtsa.  Last week I bumped heads with our bass player which resulted in a shattered tuner button on my Godin xtsa.  Any ideas on where I can get a replacement ebony button that fits exactly.  I can't believe that Godin doesn't have a readily available parts department for such things.  Any help is appreciated.


Godin Spare Parts store

https://godinguitars.com/product-category/accessories/parts/page/2/

maxwax

#195
Greetings all! First timer here but  do own a blue A6, a brown A6 ulltra, and as of a couple weeks back, a beauty of a xtSA.  Main purpose was to use my Roland gr55 for some cool applications in my one man show. But immediately I was digging the playability of the neck, the tones out of the electric, and that awesome acoustic tone all in one axe.as I was breaking it all in, I was very happy the first week+. I hadn't taken in out to a gig, just at my home studio. Finally took to gig, and at soundcheck using just the xt SA into my board, no Roland hooked up, I noticed my Low E string was not sounding in the piezomode only. Worked perfectly on the electric pick-ups.   So I got home and today hooked up the guitar with my line vetta, with sa results.  Hooked the GR-55 and also have nothing from low E.  With all three going I only hear the low E on the magnetic p/u 's.  On the 55 sensitivtyage there was nothing from the like E. Very small that suspected bleed over.  Can anyone point me to anything obvious.   I plan on checking the solder joints tomorrow, but they looked ok at first glance. I just got this as a "b" , model "good as new"....pretty disappointed, but really love the instrument.any help??
Gear:
Godin xtSA, Godin A6 Ultra, Godin A6; Line Variax;
Gibson Les Paul Custom, Fender American Strat, Ibanez Destroyer II; Gibson Flying V; G & L ASAT Custom; Dean Flying V; Fender Custom Telecaster,
Takamine P6JC-12; (2) Tak JJ325SRC12;  Tak EF381C

Majiken

Hi, I'm not a technician but it seems clear the problem is either the low E-string element itself or in the connection between that and the PCB (which would also need to be checked in the unlikely event that the first two things are okay).  I suspect the piezo itself is bad; surely someone will chime in soon with a good test procedure.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

CodeSmart

Quote from: Majiken on July 17, 2018, 12:15:48 AM
Hi, I'm not a technician but it seems clear the problem is either the low E-string element itself or in the connection between that and the PCB (which would also need to be checked in the unlikely event that the first two things are okay).  I suspect the piezo itself is bad; surely someone will chime in soon with a good test procedure.
Agree with Ken. Try to open the guitar and carefully move the Piezo connection wires with your fingers.
I had a xtSA I had to slack the wires to avoid strain to one of the Piezos causing almost silence. Worked fine since.

Otherwise....Piezo's have a tendency of dying. Lifetime is limited and salt and humidity shortens it...
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

maxwax

Thanks for the replies... I have the back open.  but have to admit. .I've never removed a piezo from anything.... any advice there?  I do work in an electronics department at a university.. so I know my way around circuits.... not that it helps!  Dang shame because I was set to add this to my show! 
Gear:
Godin xtSA, Godin A6 Ultra, Godin A6; Line Variax;
Gibson Les Paul Custom, Fender American Strat, Ibanez Destroyer II; Gibson Flying V; G & L ASAT Custom; Dean Flying V; Fender Custom Telecaster,
Takamine P6JC-12; (2) Tak JJ325SRC12;  Tak EF381C

Elantric

Good read review of Godin xtSA

http://way.net/waymusic/?p=339
Godin xTSA review: the synth (plus Axon AX50 and Roland GI-20 and a zillion VSTis)
Part three.  Parts one, electric guitar, and two, acoustic, are also up.

If you are interested in digital guitar, check out the Digital Guitarist YouTube Channel. Subscribe here.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHh63scHP-K9CO3QXkPe7bQ


In this section, I want to tackle two things about the Godin xSTA's synth section and then compare the Roland GI-20 Synth controller to the Axon AX50 controller.  I'll show how the guitar and the controller together make up an expressive unit that effects the sound profoundly before it ever gets to the synth part of your setup.  But first, I am going to complain about a flaw in this expressive unit, why no one addresses it, and a workaround.  Keep in mind that although I am complaining, this is not, as Liz Lemon would say, a dealbreaker.  It just means I had to settle:)  The problem with an expressive unit that is made by two different companies is that when something is wrong, each can point the finger to the other and say the problem lies over there.

guitar synth signal flow, with hum
The first task is to map out how the guitar synth makes sound. The bridge of the xSTA connects to a hardware synth controller via a thirteen pin plug.  What's so hexaphonic you ask?  Instead of one output, it has a separate output for each of the 6 (=hex) strings.  Instead of outputting a single weak audio voltage, it presents you with six, so each string sends its own signal, making chords much easier to pick out than with software, but also meaning you can set each string to its own synth if you want.  The box you plug it into — either the Roland or the Axon — then transforms pile of voltage signals that into a stream of midi signals and sends it on via USB to your computer and from thence to whatever you are using to turn midi into sounds, the synth proper.  Both Roland and Axon make controllers that have built in synths for double to quadruple  the price, but I loves my vsts and saved the money and got the cheaper controllers that just transform the voltage to midi for me to mangle myself.  For the most part, the pre-built synth sounds are cheesy, both Roland's and Axon's.  That includes the resource hog NI Kontact Player softsynths included with the AX50.  I'd rather roll my own and have more control over the tweaking and so forth.


The guitar synth "expressive unit" — no hum
The one big problem with the "expressive unit"  arises from a ground loop hum when you use the USB midi/audio interface on either the Roland or the Axon controller.  The details of the hum are in the original post I made,

http://www.widisoft.com/english/widi-audio-to-midi-vst.html

and it is a problem well known on the Roland and Axon, forums, and to Godin (the latter via me at least).  Because the problem appears on both synths, and it seems that it is particular to Godin guitars, the problem would seem to lie in the xSTA.  My theory is that guitar synth setups are still designed for a hardware rather than a software synthesizer producing the actual sound, and with the expectation that a guitarist will not only use an outboard synth but a separate hardware amp or two for the electric and acoustic signals.  If you try to send the (non-synth) audio signals and the synth signals to the same device  (to treat the signals on your laptop rather than through an amp and effects boxes as discussed in a zillion other articles here), a shared ground sets up a feedback loop which in turn produces the hum.  The problem is in the wiring of the thirteen pins.  To get rid of the hum, send the acoustic and electric guitar signals through their own cables to the sound card in of the computer, skip the USB portion of the controller altogether, and send your output to a separate midi input device (I use an M-Audio midi-sport 2×2 for example).  No hum, but then you cannot use the software patch editors for either unit while you are playing, or the built in internal midi ports they create.  If you want to set up and store patches, you have to do it along with the hum, then unhook the USB to play.  It is not a problem until you start running everything into the laptop, but now that it is an option to do so, and a good one, Godin should really rewire the plugs to get rid of the ground loop.  A response from someone at Godin would be especially welcome here. When I contacted tech support, they said take it in for service, but this seems from the forums to be a problem with all of them, a design flaw rather than a defect with my particular guitar.  But because the source is easy to push off , and there is a workaround, Godin has more or less ignored the problem.

The second problem with the setup from the guitar angle is that the thirteen pin connection is spotty, even with a brand new cable (update: It was the cable.  Another new cable sorted this out).  Both the Roland and the Axon have an onboard tuner, and I recommend you use it each time you plug the cables in because often one string won't output any signal until you remove and reseat the cable plug in the guitar.  Once it is working it seems to be pretty solid, but this is not a guitar for Pete Townshend acolytes (although I suppose Pete has mellowed enough to play it by now).    This second problem just makes it one more thing to check and double check before a live gig.  Doing a live gig with a guitar and laptop setup is still a pretty brave move, because a dozen things can be unplugged, switched off, or in need of a jiggle whether electronic or physical.

That is the end of my problem with the guitar, and as I said, all this is something I've learned to live with that is more than made up for by the sounds I can concoct on this setup.

tracking

I've been interested in guitar synthesis for eons, but it was always priced out of my reach until the arrival of VSTi synths.  Even then, the software-only solution I used had a major weakness. The biggest technical difficulty for guitar synthesis is something called tracking. That is the ability, or lack thereof, of software or hardware to turn an audio signal into a midi note.

I tried a couple of all-software ways to convert guitar notes to midi with mixed results.  That method uses a freestanding program like the discontinued g-tune or a vst plugin like widi to analyze the audio input and produce midi output.  I've described the sound (and the method of getting it) elsewhere as being like playing with a drunken Thelonius Monk wannabe.  The notes come out, but they are a little late and often a little bit askew, and all the velocity information is lost.  the note is either on or off.  This can actually be charming on occasion, and making synth sounds with slow attacks and long releases is a pretty good way of adapting to the all-software methods, as in this rreplay song.  If you are holding off on going synth because of $$, this is a cheap way to get started and opens up lots of tonal vistas.  Ultimately, whether it is hardware or software, the converter has to deal with the same thing, so I think that tracking will eventually move out of the controller box (i.e. the Roland or Axon) and back into the software.  Optimizing what comes out of the guitar will still help better the process though, so the specialized synth pickups on the Godin will probably stay.  Software solutions to hexaphonic output are limited by soundcard input at this point, which does not have the right connectors, and except for semi-pro and pro sound cards, does not have enough channels to deal with all the sounds coming from something like the xSTA.  For the foreseeable future the outboard controller box is still a necessity, but not for any really good reason other than nobody has moved it onboard a sound card and developed the necessary software yet.    Maybe Gibson's firewire cabling scheme  will catch on –it is a step in the right direction — but it remains to be seen, and at a little shy of 4 grand for the guitar, I won't be seeing it!

I finally took the dive and got the xSTA (less than a grand)  and started out with a Roland GI-20, then switched to an Axon AX50 synth controller interface.  This requires a bit of explanation.  The xSTA and other Godin guitars are known for having state of the art tracking.  Not having the budget to go out and buy a bunch of synth ready guitars, I'll have to take their word for it.

The biggest challenge for tracking is the bass register of the guitar.  The lower the note, the more time between wave peaks in the sound signal.  Most voltage-to-midi converters need at least one wave cycle of the note, usually more, to determine what to output. To make things worse, the initial moment of striking a guitar with a pick or finger creates a noisy stretch before the note stabilizes, called a transient.  As a result, there is a slight delay before the note can be calculated from the signal, and the lower the note, the longer it takes to calculate because a wavelength takes longer to happen, so the worse tracking gets. One solution is to just turn the octave setting down a few notches and play your bass using higher notes on the guitar.  I just have a hard time getting the feel of a bass when I am playing on a wambly little G, B, or E string.

The xSTA's job is to get the cleanest signal for each note to the midi controller and from there the controller takes over, so we need to divide the issue up and separate the xSTA's job from the midi box's job.  That said, the tracking from the xSTA is twenty times better than the software tracking solutions, which it damn well better be because it is also twenty time the price!  There really is not much more to say about the guitar part of the synthesis chain, so with that, we need to turn from the guitar to the midi controller hardware, and compare the Roland to the Axon.

I started with the Roland GI-20.  It was a hundred or two $$ less than the Axon AX50 and offered some features the Axon did not have (see below). The tracking is much better than software solutions, but not good enough to play a complex rhythm on a bass line and keep the nuances.  You can hear it drift around a bit in this piece, which is the acoustic section played with the synth on and the midi transposed down an octave and sent to a bass synth vst plugin.  The bass should be playing the same notes as the guitar part an octave down, but as you can hear, they don't exactly, giving the not unpleasant illusion in this case of two players playing slightly different things.  Not drunk Monk, but forget funk or even punk. Its still thunk thunk.  Sorry, had to do that 🙂

Ultimately, two factors made me retire the Roland and go for the AX50.  One is size (because as I mentioned, I am traveling a lot) and the other is the tracking.  It has been a tradeoff though, as the Roland is better for some things, especially if you have some room to spread out (anyone want a good deal on a barely used GI-20? seriously, if you do, contact me!).

The Axon is pitched as a tracking monster.  Instead of waiting for a whole wavelength, the folks at Axon studied the transient part of a guitar picker's attack, the very first moments during and after hitting the string but before the signal has stabilized to produce whatever frequency it is going to produce.  They figured out how to accurately predict the note to follow from the transient, in theory doing away with our tracking problems.  It works really well, if not quite perfectly.

In the musical example, the first time through I play the electric guitar section only on the left channel, so you can hear what I am trying to play.  Next comes the guitar on the left with a bass synth on the right powered by the xSTA and the AX50 run through Cakewalk's Dimension with the "electric fingered 1" bass patch.  The third time, just so you can hear the difference from software solution tracking, I used widi, an audio to midi vst plugin, fed into nuSofting's marimka, emphasizing the attack so you can hear how slow the tracking is on the software solution.  Its not bad, but a little off.


tracking bass -close
If you look closely at the image files, you will see that the green lines, which mark the onsets of notes in the guitar only signal, come a little before the bass notes in the left (lower) channel.  In the closeup image, it becomes clear that this lag is right at the edges of perception, in the ten to twenty millisecond range.  Thus playing it doesn't sound like a lag so much as it feels a little slow. (n.b.:  the green lines are generated by a software onset detector that uses the whole signal, thus not real time, and not subject to the problems above, but also not useful for live playing)

Once you set the AX50 up to your playing style, it tracks any cleanly played notes with very little mis-tracking (playing notes other than what you played).  Some of the subtleties of a bass line will still get lost, as is obvious from the gaps in the first picture for the left channel, but the tracking is just shy of instant.  I have found that you can get a pretty expressive bass sound by mixing in some of the acoustic guitar signal into the octave-down synth mix to get the sound of the strings and the transients in there with zero lag and then plastering on whatever bass tone you choose so that the acoustic transients cover for the lag.

GI-20 vs. AX50

The GI-20 has some features I like that the AX50 lacks.    It is massively flexible.  You can program the switches on the xSTA to send either octave up and down messages, great if you want to switch quickly to a bass guitar register, or it can be set to send patch change messages (which by the way, can also be programmed to set the octave, sort of rendering the first choice a bit redundant).  The volume control for the synth can be set to any midi control (cc) message rather than just controlling volume, so for example, you could use it to sweep a filter instead of controlling volume  (losing the volume control in the process however).  Where the GI-20 is most remarkable in this regard is when you hook up both the optional foot controllers, one being a two button footswitch and the other an expression pedal.  The GI-20 gives you lots more options than just sending CC mesages, though it does that to.

THe AX50 has no inputs or dials.  no footswitches or pedals.  just an LED with a simple display and a power switch and a little tuning button on the front.  Everything gets done via the program banks controlled from the tail-most switch on the Godin, which you set up in software (with the USB hooked up).  What is extraordinary about the setup is that because of the transient sensitivity, the  unit can tell where on the guitar you are picking, whether closer to the neck or the bridge, with enough accuracy that you can assign a midi controller to it so that you can for example run a filter sweep  (like on a wahwah pedal) by changing the picking location.  This maneuver without the synth is already part of any expressive guitar player's repertoire — it changes the tone drastically — so hooking it up to midi is a natural feeling extension of what you can do with the tone.  This is a great feature and I love it a lot.  You can divide the picking area and the fretboard into zones and assign each by string to a different sound, so that if you play an "A" on the seventh fret of the  D string,  it can play a different instrument than if you play it on the twelfth fret of the A string!  I have not had the chance to experiment with this much yet, but I like the idea.  What this does is keeps the expressive potential on the guitar.  No feet are involved and the hands never have to leave the guitar.  Now if I can only get the tilt sensor to the wiimote hooked up and attach it somewhere...oh wait a minute, maybe this not-so-free freeplayer thingie will work for another chunk of change....

Anyway, the bottom line is that you can get a tremendous variety of tonal wonderment out of the mixture of electric, acoustic, and synth sounds that the xSTA makes accessible, and the whole package of guitar and controller costs around the price of a nice mid-level guitar.  I opted for the Axon for the tracking and having a simpler smaller setup, but the Roland has its neat features too.  The whole setup is a blast most of the time, and I am still, after a year, finding new tones and new ways of making and mixing sounds every day, which is what it is about for me.  I'll keep writing about the software setup, but I think I've pretty much covered what I have to say about the hardware.  Any comments?

Finally, if you made it this far, please take a little more time and listen to some of the great music on way net if you haven't already.  Anything I've recorded in the past year and a half or so has been on the xSTA and either the Roland or the Axon.