GR-55 - GK3 guitar out not working

Started by Elantric, February 16, 2011, 10:13:09 AM

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Elantric

The GR-55 "Guitar Out" is unique among all VG/GR /GP units - because it allows a path for the DSP Guitar Modeling (think Variax) ,  its the only Roland product that  employs  a DAC Output under CPU control for the "Guitar Out" signal.
Might also explain why some folks find the GR-55 Guitar Out usable with some Guitar amps  - with acceptable noise results (rare)

The GR-55's Guitar Output jack is USER Configurable - via a Menu


See the GR-55 Owners Manual Page 70

1. Set the system parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 80) to
"NORMAL PU."

"The GUITAR OUT jack can output the normal pickup sound and/or the
modeling tone sound and Alt Tunings
For example, you can play the normal pickup sound and the modeling
tone sound through your guitar amp, and play the other synthesizer
sounds through the PA equipment connected to the OUTPUT jacks."



See the GR-55 Owners Manual  Page 80
The GUITAR OUT jack choices are :
PATCH The GUITAR OUT setting (p. 59) of each patch will be used.
OFF Nothing will be output from the GUITAR OUT jack.
NORMAL PU The normal pickup sound will be output.
MODELING The modeling tone sound will be output.
BOTH Both the normal pickup sound and the modeling tone sound will be output.



* How to enable "Normal Guitar Pickups" with the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0

GR-55 COSM Modeled Guitar PU tone can be set up to  emerge from the "Guitar Out Jack"   

Realize that on the GK-3, you have a three position switch :

"Guitar"  =  switch position always refers to your Normal Guitar pickups (never the COSM Guitar Tone)

"MIX" = switch position enables patches to be created which use a blend of your Normal Guitar pickups and GR-55 generated tones ( COSM Guitars, PCM Tones)

"GK" = (Synth on GK-2A) switch position always refers to GR-55 generated tones ( COSM Guitars, PCM Tones)


The GR-55 Guitar Out jack can be configured to send dry normal guitar, or dry COSM Modelled guitar or a mix of both.

No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55.



See GR-55 Owners Manual page 59


"GUITAR OUT Jack Settings:

For each patch, specifies the signal that will be sent from the GUITAR OUT jack.
The system parameter GUITAR OUT lets you specify whether to use the GUITAR OUT setting for each patch or the
overall setting (system setting) for the entire GR-55.

OFF  = Nothing will be output from the GUITAR OUT jack.
NORMAL PU  = The normal pickup sound will be output.
MODELING = The modeling tone sound will be output.
BOTH  = Both the normal pickup sound and the modeling tone sound will be output.



In the GR-55 Owners Manual, when it says the Guitar Out jack can output "Modeling Tone" - this translates to only COSM Modeled Guitar Tones

and NOT COSM Modeled AMP Tones.


EDIT

QuoteSo I went back to a patch in which the normal pickup was not active and changed the level.  The guitar out level dropped as well.  Went back to the Mustang amp and tried it, and no unwanted distortion!  That's the solution for this particular problem with an amp like the Mustang.  I found that leaving the normal pickup level at about 50 pretty much matched the level that I got plugging the guitar directly into the amp.

Thanks for posting this discovery !

The GR-55 "Guitar Out" is unique among all VG/GR /GP units - because it allows a path for the DSP Guitar Modeling,  its the only Roland product that  employs  a DAC Output under CPU control for the "Guitar Out" signal.
Might also explain why some folks find the GR-55 Guitar Out usable with some Guitar amps  - with acceptable results (rare)









synthgtr

tried to get this to work as advertised but only got the dry normal p/u, so I called Roland support and told the CSR what I was trying to do and he said that no matter what you set it at it will only output the dry normal p/u. he brought out the block diagram to show his point. So I directed him to the same pages in the manual that you referenced..... he looked at what the manual said and wrote up a bug report for the engineers in Japan saying that either the manual needs to be revised or the functionality tweaked to do as manual states. It will be interesting to see what Roland does on this.... ;D

Quote from: Elantric on February 16, 2011, 10:13:09 AM
You must enable the  GR-55's Guitar Output jack - via a Menu


See the GR-55 Owners Manual Page 70

1. Set the system parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 80) to
"NORMAL PU."

"The GUITAR OUT jack can output the normal pickup sound and the
modeling tone sound.
For example, you can play the normal pickup sound and the modeling
tone sound through your guitar amp, and play the other synthesizer
sounds through the PA equipment connected to the OUTPUT jacks."



See the GR-55 Owners Manual  Page 80
The GUITAR OUT jack choices are :
PATCH The GUITAR OUT setting (p. 59) of each patch will be used.
OFF Nothing will be output from the GUITAR OUT jack.
NORMAL PU The normal pickup sound will be output.
MODELING The modeling tone sound will be output.
BOTH Both the normal pickup sound and the modeling tone sound will be output.

Elantric

#2
Perhaps its best to have you go into some detail about your setup?

List your Guitar type, GK Pickup type, and what amp you are feeding with the GR-55 Guitar Out jack?
   

Did the Roland CSR share his GR-55 block diagram ?

Was it different than this one?

which clearly shows the COSM PU(MODELING TONE) being available as an option for the "Guitar Out" jack

I will finally be able to dive into my GR-55 this weekend, and I will get to the bottom of this "bug".
=================

Owners manual page 54

The GUITAR OUT jack can output the normal pickup sound and the
sound of the modeling tone.
For example, you can make settings so that the normal pickup sound
and the modeling tone sound will be played through a guitar amp,
while the other synthesizer sounds will be played through the PA
system connected to the OUTPUT jacks. For details, refer to System
settings "GUITAR OUT Jack Settings (GUITAR OUT)" (p. 70).
For details on the parameters, refer to "GUITAR OUT" (p. 59).

Memo:
If the SYSTEM setting GUITAR OUT (p. 80) is set to anything other than
"PATCH," this setting is ignored.


Owners manual page 70
The GUITAR OUT jack can output the normal pickup sound and the
modeling tone sound.
For example, you can play the normal pickup sound and the modeling
tone sound through your guitar amp, and play the other synthesizer
sounds through the PA equipment connected to the OUTPUT jacks.

Always Outputting the Normal Pickup Sound from the GUITAR OUT Jack for All Patches
1. Set the system parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 80) to "NORMAL PU."
For details on setting the system parameters, refer to "Settings for the
Entire GR-55 (SYSTEM)" (p. 69).

Always Outputting the Modeling Tone Sound from the GUITAR OUT Jack for All Patches
1. Set the system parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 80) to "MODELING."
For details on setting the system parameters, refer to "Settings for the Entire GR-55 (SYSTEM)" (p. 69).

Changing the Output Sound from the GUITAR OUT Jack for Each Patch
1. Set the system parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 80) to "PATCH."
For details on setting the system parameters, refer to "Settings for the Entire GR-55 (SYSTEM)" (p. 69).
2. Set the master parameter GUITAR OUT–SOURCE (p. 59) to the setting you want to use.
For details on editing the master parameters, refer to "Patch Settings
(MASTER)" (p. 54).

MEMO
• The setting of the GUITAR OUT jack does not affect the output from the Main stereo OUTPUT jacks.
If you don't want the output from the GUITAR OUT jack to be included in the sound that's output from the OUTPUT jacks, you must separately set each of the patch's tone settings to "OFF."

• If the GUITAR OUT–SOURCE setting is "BOTH," the normal pickup sound and the modeling tone sound will be mixed and output.
• The OUTPUT SELECT (p. 70) setting does not apply to the sound that's output from the GUITAR OUT jack.



 

synthgtr

he used the flow diagram on page 93 of manual..... looks like the one you posted  8)

Elantric

#4
Sounds like they need to retrain the CSR people - because this does work if you set it up correctly

"The GUITAR OUT jack can output the normal pickup sound and the
sound of the modeling tone.


Hint: in this context, "modeling tone", simply means COSM Modeled Guitar and Alt Tunings only- no Amp modeling or FX.


For example, you can make settings so that the normal pickup sound
and the modeling tone sound will be played through a guitar amp,
while the other synthesizer sounds will be played through the PA
system connected to the OUTPUT jacks. For details, refer to System
settings "GUITAR OUT Jack Settings (GUITAR OUT)" (p. 70).
For details on the parameters, refer to "GUITAR OUT" (p. 59).
"

rockhound

Hate to sound like a total idiot, but what is the true purpose of the (Guitar Out) jack. From what I've been reading in our forums is that there is confusion on it's purpose. Even reading the manual leads to believe that you can get the guitar, amp, and regular effects in the signal chain. If not then what is the modeling tone that they refer to. Is it also similar to the VG 99's guitar output.

sonnyv

#6
someone correct me if i'm missing anything, but it appears that the purpose of the guitar out is simply to model your guitar and plug it into an external guitar amp and effects.

for example, if you've got a strat all you can do is model the sound of a tele or other guitar and then plug the gr55 guitar out into your marshall amp and add effects to complete your tone.

gumtown

It is a means of extracting either you normal pickup tone, or the modeled tone, or both together, before any effect processing (i.e dry out) to be able to run as a separate output/route from the PCM tones, and separate from the GR-55 outputs.
You can use this to run via external guitar effects and traditional guitar amp, while your synth tones can be run independantly to a P.A system.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Witelite

Is there a way to have the ctrl pedal or some other expression switch mute the guitar out jack? So if you were playing a part that you just wanted to quickly cut out the normal guitar (not the modeled one) and hear the synth tones versus turning down the volume on the guitar? Would be quicker but not sure it is possible

Gastric

Quote from: Witelite on March 12, 2011, 05:31:56 AM
Is there a way to have the ctrl pedal or some other expression switch mute the guitar out jack? So if you were playing a part that you just wanted to quickly cut out the normal guitar (not the modeled one) and hear the synth tones versus turning down the volume on the guitar? Would be quicker but not sure it is possible

I haven't tried this, but it looks like you could use an Assign to control Guitar Out Source. Toggle it between Normal Pickup and COSM while you have COSM VOLUME = 0 so it is effectively off.

ddlooping

Quote from: Witelite on March 12, 2011, 05:31:56 AM
Is there a way to have the ctrl pedal or some other expression switch mute the guitar out jack? So if you were playing a part that you just wanted to quickly cut out the normal guitar (not the modeled one) and hear the synth tones versus turning down the volume on the guitar? Would be quicker but not sure it is possible

An option is to assign the "Normal Pickup / Tone Level" to the CTRL pedal, setting it to "0" in one of the positions.
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

sheguitarplayer

#11
I tried connecting my GR55 guitar out to a couple of guitar heads today just to try it out. I found that as soon as I plug the guitar out to the front input of any of my amps (A Marshall afd100 and a Marshall JMD 50) there is an unbearable level of hiss. This remains even after unplugging the GK cable from the GR55 (I did this to eliminate the cables etc).
I then tried connecting via the stereo outputs. Still a lot of hiss, although not as severe.
I tried a few different cables between the GR55 and the amps.
Anyone else connecting their Guitar out to a guitar amp and if so, anyone else having problems?
I usually connect my GR30 the my rig with the guitar out going to the guitar amp input with no problems.

RicardoLove

It's noise to signal ratio on the stereo outs. Turn down the GR-55 out put signal.  Also one the master out there is a selection mode for the type of amp or line out you are plugged in to, so make sure it matches your amp.  That's news to me because for recording it's quiet.  Try the correct selection on the out put and turning the GR-55 down on the master and up on the patch.  Check your sound patch in head phones the noise should be about the same.  Keyboards do the same thing.  I used to record Korg Tritons a lot and they where noisy but you have to turn the patch up and the over all unit down.
email: ricardolovemedia@gmail.com
demo web site: http://www.reverbnation.com/rlove
GR-55 demos http://www.soundcloud.com/ricardolove
For hire Music Producer/Remixer

sheguitarplayer

Thanks for the reply Ricardo.
Im trying to connect to a guitar amp, preferably through the guitar out for the regular guitar sounds, and to a pa desk via the stereo outs for synth and cosm guitar (Mainly acoustic sounds). There doesnt seem to be any way to control the level on the guitar out, and anyway it does sound 'right' as far as pushing the guitar amp front end is concerned. However the hiss is very loud indeed on high gain channels on the amp. This problem does not occur with either my GR30 or GR33, where the guitar out works just fine.
There is no hum present like you would expect if it was a ground loop or something, just very loud hiss which disappears as soon as the GR55 is disconnected from the front of the amp.

paulv1958

Hi guys this might sound repeated, and I apologise if it does but after playing around all day, here's what I get.

Guitar out will play normal guitar pickups plus Modelling tone( Read Guitar types) only.

You can play with any of the settings, and they will be transmitted. This includes all the alternate tunings.

NONE of the AMP settings nor Effects( i.e distortion/ Flanger Etc can be applied via the Guitar Out.)

SO I see the Guitar out as a simulated guitar only -i.e. for someone who just needs the raw sounds of different guitars.

To get the full use you either have to LEFT/Mono output to guitar amp or Left/right into PA / Stereo AMP.

bri2u2

I use the guitar out for cosm and mag outs and it's very quiet. Same as direct into amp. I run the master output level at 12 o'clock. If you've checked all cables, ground loops and patch levels and all is fine and hiss is still there, you might want to call Roland.
Strat w/Ghost sys
Fender Super Sonic 22
Roland KC-150
Gr-55
GT-6

Elantric

#16
This "hiss" will vary quite a bit, and is dependent on your Tube Amp, and other effects in the signal chain.

If you feed the signal from the GR-55 Guitar Out jack to many hi gain tube amps which are set to their lead channel with gain boost enabled  - it will shower you with HISSSS!

If you feed the input of a Roland JC-120 it will be clean.


Also know that among all hex pickups with 13 pin output jack, the Graphtech Ghost series have the most hiss and noise. This does not impact Guitar to MIDI, but may create  noise problems with COSM Guitar Modeling and COSM high gain  Amp Modeling on VG-99 / GR-55.
In that case, use the "GK N.S" (Noise Suppressor) function built into these systems



 

sheguitarplayer

I think you pretty much nailed it elantric.
Im using a Marshall afd100 which sounds fantastic, but is a high gain amp. It doesnt have a clean channel either. There is very little hiss when I go straight to the amp from my guitar and old fashioned pedalboard,but plugging in the GR55 is very noisy. I had planned to run the amp with a lead sound and adjust the gain going into the amp via the GR55 but unfortunately its a no no.
Ive been trying the GR55 straight into an atomic FRFR and just forgoing the valve amp altogether. Im quite liking it so far.

gumtown

Have you tried plugging the GR-55 into the FX Return of the Marshal amp, and bypassing the Marshall preamp altogether.

or try this for an experiment..

Remove the short jack cable from the guitar normal pickup to the GK selector, and plug from the guitar normal pickup direct to the Marshall front input.
Then from the Marshall FX Send, cable that to the GK selector normal guitar input.
Then plug the GR-55 output to the Marshall FX Return.
Then route the Normal Pickup signal so it does not use the GR-55 preamp. (set to bypass or MFX).

This setup will be like 4CM, the marshall preamp will be used on the normal pickup only, and then you can use the GR-55 preamp for the modeled tone.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Spider

Quote from:  sheguitarplayer on March 15, 2011, 06:47:21 AM
There doesnt seem to be any way to control the level on the guitar out, and anyway it does sound 'right' as far as pushing the guitar amp front end is concerned. However the hiss is very loud indeed on high gain channels on the amp.

As I remember you can control the level of the guitar out via level of tone (COSM / regular guitar) in the edit menu. It works even when a box on the left isn't checked.

sheguitarplayer

Quote from:  Spider on March 25, 2011, 05:19:52 AM
As I remember you can control the level of the guitar out via level of tone (COSM / regular guitar) in the edit menu. It works even when a box on the left isn't checked.
Sorry I didnt make that very clear. I meant there isnt any way of controlling the level (overall) of signal coming from the guitar out. I can control the volume of the guitar itself, but the noise (which appears as hiss on a high gain channel) remains, even with the guitar volume 'off'. I cant even remove it completely using the noise gate on the GR55. Ive tried it with a few amps and its the same. Fine on clean and low gain settings, but really bad on high gain settings.
I tend to run my valve amps with a lead sound and control the gain from the guitar volume. I have at times used a GTpro (which I no longer have) and an Axefx with these amps using the 4 cable method and been able to control them this way using the fx send level or the guitar volume knob to control the amount of gain. I was kinda hoping to do this with the GR55 but as Ive mentioned on another thread, gonna try a few gigs using the GR55 alone into an Atomic FRFR.
Thanks for the input guys.

Spider

Quote from:  sheguitarplayer on March 26, 2011, 03:24:00 AM
Sorry I didnt make that very clear. I meant there isnt any way of controlling the level (overall) of signal coming from the guitar out. I can control the volume of the guitar itself, but the noise (which appears as hiss on a high gain channel) remains, even with the guitar volume 'off'. I cant even remove it completely using the noise gate on the GR55. Ive tried it with a few amps and its the same. Fine on clean and low gain settings, but really bad on high gain settings.
I tend to run my valve amps with a lead sound and control the gain from the guitar volume. I have at times used a GTpro (which I no longer have) and an Axefx with these amps using the 4 cable method and been able to control them this way using the fx send level or the guitar volume knob to control the amount of gain. I was kinda hoping to do this with the GR55 but as Ive mentioned on another thread, gonna try a few gigs using the GR55 alone into an Atomic FRFR.
Thanks for the input guys.

Do you have connected the normal guitar out with the GK2/3? I noticed that even if you don't use it, it is needed for grounding.

BobTheDog

Ah, I'm not alone with this then. I get hum as well!

I just changed from using the usb audio (no hiss at all, noise floor at -144db) to plugging into a couple of amps and a Eleven Rack.

The hiss is astounding from this unit, totally unusable for me.

The hiss is the same even with the GK cable removed and the Guitar out setting set to "OFF", it is basically just hiss produced by the audio circuitry in the unit.

With the GK cable removed and the guitar out set to "OFF" and the Guitar Out into an 11 rack I need to set the noise gate to -72db, this is one noisy unit!

Removing the usb cable gets rid of the hum and lowers the hiss by around 10db.

If I route the audio from the USB via the computer to the 11 rack I get no noise at all.

Andy



viramundo

Listening on headphones I've noticed that the normal pickup has a little hiss from the GR-55 but there's none at all from the Modelled or Synth sounds.

This is a hiss that certainly does not exist with my guitar normally.

Elantric

#24
The Hiss on magnetic pickups is due to the opamp buffer which is employed at the transmit side on ALL 13 pin preamps (Roland GK-3, RMC, PolyDrive, Ghost Hexpander)

I think I could develop some low noise modifications to the circuit - stay tuned.