FTP - Synth sounds even though Switch is set to Guitar

Started by tomtheguitarguy, February 20, 2014, 07:59:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tomtheguitarguy

Anyone else experiencing this glitch?  Lately I've been getting synth sounds even though my controller has the switch set on to Guitar...

It's happened on my Mac and my Windows laptops.

Just checking . . .

Thanks!

Tom
http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric

#1
QuoteAnyone else experiencing this glitch?  Lately I've been getting synth sounds even though my controller has the switch set on to Guitar...

Sure - all the time -Specifically if you are connecting your guitar's normal pickups signal path to a typical guitar rig ( and not a PC/MAC)   

Understand that on the FTP - the three way "Guitar / Mix / Synth" switch is merely sending MIDI info to the FTP Control Panel app. its not actually switching anything

==
Shawn wrote>
The way volume is controlled, by the volume knob and by the G/M/S switch, is via CC#7.  At the time you switch G/M/S to 'Guitar', you will see CC#7s with a value of 0 sent to the currently active MIDI channels.   

/.../

To repeat what I said above - Guitar/MIX/Synth has NEVER affected Mute buttons in the app for me.  The lack of that happening is NOT a sign of an FTP app bug.  (As we discussed above, this is possibly a Windows/Mac thing.) 

/.../

tomtheguitarguy

But you would think that since it is supposed to be muting the synth sounds it wouldn't sound out in the Guitar position..
http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric

#3
When you move the FTP Guitar/mix/Synth

Shawn wrote>
The way volume is controlled, by the volume knob and by the G/M/S switch, is via CC#7.  At the time you switch G/M/S to 'Guitar', you will see CC#7s with a value of 0 sent to the currently active MIDI channels. 





shawnb

#4


The FTP Volume knob & the Guitar/Mix/Synth switch all work via CC#7s.  This is from my FTP HW mode doc, but it applies in any FTP mode:
QuoteGUITAR/MIX/SYNTH switch, if changed, will send volume info on channels 1-7 on CC 7:
- Selecting GUITAR always zeroes out volume, no matter what the knob's value
- Selecting MIX or SYNTH always sends the current volume based on the knob's value
- This will also affect channels 11-16 if splits have been defined for the current patch

FTP VOLUME sends CC 7 controller messages when the GUITAR/MIX/SYNTH switch is set to MIX or SYNTH. CC 7 messages are not sent when the switch is set to GUITAR.

No matter what the position of the G/M/S switch, the FTP always sends notes with normal velocities that reflect the performance.

So...   For the G/M/S switch to work, it must be switched when it is connected to the synth by MIDI (so it can process the CC#7), and further, that synth must honor CC#7 as volume (which may be configurable on your synth). 

I'm with Tom in that, if it is set to 'Guitar', why is it sending note info at all? 

The FTP Vol used to control the master volume slider in the FTP app, but no longer.  There are fairly new settings under Preferences that can tie the FTP app's master volume slider to CC#80, and whether that will impact the guitar volume or not. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

#5
I definitely do not see that on the PC (just verified).  In fact, the UI looks a bit different (your tuner is snazzier... and you have much deeper patch config... Hmmm...). 

Question - Does it keep track of your last synth config?  I see you have two Kontakt synths, one muted.  if you switch to 'Guitar', does it mute both?  If you then go back to 'Mix' will it unmute both, or only the one that had been unmuted earlier? 

It would need to keep track of the state of the prior config to make that work... 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

tomtheguitarguy

Quote from: shawnb on February 21, 2014, 08:31:53 AM
I have never seen the Guitar/Mix/Synth switch activate the Mute buttons.  Maybe a Mac vs PC thing?   

So...   For the G/M/S switch to work, it must be switched when it is connected to the synth by MIDI (so it can process the CC#7), and further, that synth must honor CC#7 as volume (which may be configurable on your synth). 



Itt must be connected to the synth if it is sounding notes, right?  So I give up to why it's not working correctly.

It's just weird that it's happening.  On stage.  Live.  When I'm performing  (or at least trying to).  :(

Thanks for the thoughts and observations...

http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

shawnb

I would focus on two things...

One, cable connections...   It's possible the synth doesn't see the change?

Two, vst configs.   What will it do with cc#7?

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

tomtheguitarguy

I'm using the FTP software - haven't delved into the VST route as I don't have a need for changing patches mid song and I can usually call up a new preset fairly quickly and the load time isn't an issue as there is usually a little banter with the crowd.  So it's controller wireless to USB dongle into the computer.

Thanks for the suggestions Shawn...
http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

tomtheguitarguy

#9
Quote from: Elantric on February 21, 2014, 06:54:16 AM


If this is not working - contact Fishman Support ASAP.
It suggests your FTP Hardware or Software or firmware is out of whack

Be sure you have applied all the latest updates too.


It definitely does not "mute" (turn the Mute button red) on the screen of my 2008 MacBook Pro - moving the FTP Guitar/Mix/Synth does not make anything on the screen change.

Tonight I kept getting errant notes and sounds:  Had String Ensemble patch  selected and after a couple of bars, the synth was sounding a constant pitch (regardless of chord or notes pressed - actually it would sound the new note, but there was another constant synth note ringing/playing too)...errr....

Using the FTP software - not a DAW or Mainstage or other app - just the included FTP software
http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric


tomtheguitarguy

Well, an update for ya...

Contacted Fishman.

They indicated that the "mute" button on the FTP software isn't supposed to go on/offwhen using the switch on the controller.  So nothing wrong there.

They recommended that I try re-pairing the controller and usb dongle (suggested that it be done often actually, to ensure a "good match"). 

After doing as suggested, I still have the same issue - synth sounds while the switch on the controller is set to Guitar.  Intermittent - and that's what's frustrating.  I emailed Fishman and reported my findings - I thought it might just be a Mac issue, since I just updated to Maverick on an old(er) 2008 MacBook Pro - but I get the same issues when I use it on my Windows 8 laptop and the iPad...  :(

Anyway, they suggested that I may have a faulty controller and are asking me to send it in for them to have a look out.  So the good news is Fishman is going to take a look at it - the bad news:  no synth for me for a while  :(  :(  :(

Anyway, just wanted to update you all to show you that Fishman is supporting the FTP with no hesitation!

Will update you as things go...

http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric

#12
Refer to the FTP Owners Manual (click link below) for validation of the 3way FTP Controller switch operation.
http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/download/tripleplay_user_guide.pdf
(See Page 13)

"B. Guitar/Synth Selector switch. In the middle Mix position, you hear both the Guitar channel and any active Synths channels.
With Guitar selected, all synth channels are muted, and you hear only the Guitar channel.
With Synth selected, the Guitar channel is muted, and you hear only the virtual instruments on the synth channels.


(See Page 18)

C. Mixer area. A virtual mixing board for adjusting the levels,
panning, and solo/mute status of the guitar and synth sounds that comprise each patch. Its components and
functions are covered in Mixer area (page 18).

tomtheguitarguy

Hey Elantric - I don't disbelieve you, I'm just repeating what I was told.

Here is the email I received from them...
_____________________________
Hi Tom -

Are you running firmware version 2.10 on your controller? You can confirm this via Options-->About TriplePlay.

When you've experienced these operational issues, did you re-pair the controller and receiver? This should technically be done for optimal performance each time you use it to ensure that you're operating on the cleanest channel from any interference.

If you've tried all this, and you are still hearing the synth when the switch is set to guitar, you may have a defective controller.

Also, the synth mute buttons within the standalone do not illuminate when the switch is set to Guitar, so there is no error happening there. I would say to make sure your firmware is up to date (v2.10), that you are running the latest TriplePlay release of 1.2.3647, and that you have re-paired the controller/receiver by pressing the button on each to find the cleanest channel. If none of this helps, please let us know and we will take the next steps toward getting you sorted out.

Hope this helps

Matt
________________________


http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric

#14
Contact MATT at Fishman Support, and have him explain how FTP three way switched to "Guitar" is supposed to work.

And  ask when will Fishman release accurate documentation that reflects actual operation of latest 2.10 firmware.

To me - its sounds like  latest FTP 2.10 firmware "broke" the formerly working  FTP Controller three way "Guitar/Mix/Synth" switch.

shawnb

#15
The way volume is controlled, by the volume knob and by the G/M/S switch, is via CC#7.  At the time you switch G/M/S to 'Guitar', you will see CC#7s with a value of 0 sent to the currently active MIDI channels.   

So...   You can diagnose this pretty quickly by observing whether those CC#7s are being produced.  MIDIOX or even a DAW will do.  Most DAWs can be used to record your CCs and let you inspect them. 

If you record automation, and see the CC#7 0 in the stream at the time you switched it to Guitar, then your issue is on the synth side - the FTP is doing what it should.  If you do NOT see the expected CC#7s, then the issue is with the FTP.   In that case, as Fishman support has instructed, send it in for replacement/repair. 

A picture of what you might see in your DAW is attached.  In this example, the FTP was in 'Basic' mode, with the FTP volume at max.   I flicked the switch back & forth between SYNTH and MIX, then moved it to GUITAR. 

To repeat what I said above - Guitar/MIX/Synth has NEVER affected Mute buttons in the app for me.  The lack of that happening is NOT a sign of an FTP app bug.  (As we discussed above, this is possibly a Windows/Mac thing.) 

I am on the latest firmware & FTP app myself.  This particular behavior was not affected by the latest updates.

Especially with notes going errant, though, this sounds like his FTP unit is going south.  There is a slight possibility in my mind that his MIDI device or driver is a problem.  The only way to exclude that (slight) possibility would be to use a different MIDI adapter. 

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb


Another thought for diagnosing, if you don't have access to MIDIOX or a DAW...   Does your soft synth's volume knob react when you adjust the FTP volume knob?   If so, then flip the G/M/S switch to GUITAR, and you should see it snap to 0.  Again, both the FTP volume knob & G/M/S switch use CC#7.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

Quote from: shawnb on March 17, 2014, 06:24:45 PM
The way volume is controlled, by the volume knob and by the G/M/S switch, is via CC#7.  At the time you switch G/M/S to 'Guitar', you will see CC#7s with a value of 0 sent to the currently active MIDI channels.   

/.../

To repeat what I said above - Guitar/MIX/Synth has NEVER affected Mute buttons in the app for me.  The lack of that happening is NOT a sign of an FTP app bug.  (As we discussed above, this is possibly a Windows/Mac thing.) 

/.../
Shawn

Exactly. The same in my case.

Elantric

#18
using Snoize MIDI Monitor on my FTP Version 1.2.3647

I see these MIDI Messages (non FTP Hardware Mode)

Three way switch Position

"Guitar" = MIDI CC#63 = 1

"Synth" = MIDI CC#63 = 2

"MIX" = MIDI CC#63 = 3

Not seeing any activity on MIDI CC#7

The FTP Controller's volume knob sends messages on MIDI Channels 1 & 2 CC#7 (Channel Volume)  0-127

Copied from Snoize MIDI Monitor MIDI Message activity screen below:
  TIME               SOURCE          Message   Ch    DATA
08:23:10.742   From TP Control   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.048   From TP Guitar   Control   8   Controller 63   3 (MIX)
08:23:12.048   From TP Control   Control   8   Controller 63   3 (MIX)
08:23:12.048   From TP Guitar   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.048   From TP Control   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.049   From TP Guitar   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.049   From TP Control   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.832   From TP Guitar   Control   8   Controller 63   1 (GUITAR)
08:23:12.832   From TP Control   Control   8   Controller 63   1 (GUITAR)
08:23:12.832   From TP Guitar   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.832   From TP Control   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.832   From TP Guitar   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:12.832   From TP Control   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.037   From TP Guitar   Control   8   Controller 63   3 (MIX)
08:23:15.037   From TP Control   Control   8   Controller 63   3 (MIX)
08:23:15.038   From TP Guitar   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.038   From TP Control   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.038   From TP Guitar   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.038   From TP Control   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.879   From TP Guitar   Control   8   Controller 63   2 (SYNTH)
08:23:15.879   From TP Control   Control   8   Controller 63   2 (SYNTH)
08:23:15.879   From TP Guitar   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.879   From TP Control   Control   1   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.880   From TP Guitar   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127
08:23:15.880   From TP Control   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127

shawnb

#19
Quote from: Elantric on March 18, 2014, 08:17:51 AM
Not seeing any activity on MIDI CC#7
...
08:23:12.049   From TP Guitar   Control   2   Channel Volume (coarse)   127

The 'Channel Volume' messages are CC#7 messages.  I think your monitor is translating them to 'friendly' descriptions for you.  When in Poly mode, Channel 1 = synth & Channel 2 = pedal.  The Channel 8 messages, I believe, are intended for the FTP app. 

Still...  I'm pretty shocked that there are no Channel Volumes to 0 when you flip the switch to the GUITAR position.   THAT, I don't understand...   Without that, your synth will keep playing...   I believe this is exactly what is happening to Tomtheguitarguy.

With that exception, this dump matches my SONAR midi event list provided above.   

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

I was able to verify Elantric's results above - you get CC#7 non-zero values when you have the FTP app up & running & switch to GUITAR. 

I think Spider & I are used to using & monitoring the FTP device without the FTP app running, in HW or Basic mode. 

The FTP app definitely changes this FTP behavior when sync'd.  When the app is running it always xmits the current volume, no matter what the G/M/S switch position.  (I still never saw the MUTE buttons operate, though.)

So... 

I'm not sure any of this helps tomtheguitarguy diagnose his issue.  As Fishman said, possibly a defective device.  If at all possible, I'd try with another PC & MIDI device; this would eliminate all downstream potential causes & definitely point to the device. 

On another topic...  While putzing with this, I attempted to monitor the control channel, as Elantric did.  I never tried that before.  (VERY interesting, uses active sensing, lots of sysex...)  When I did so, I got 'Receiver In Use' within the app.  I was able to reproduce this at will.  Selecting or attempting to use the FTP control channel (for example, in a DAW) may be the source of some folks' frustrating 'Receiver In Use' conditions. 

Lesson of the day: Leave the control channel alone.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#21
Quote(I still never saw the MUTE buttons operate, though.)

Yea - I removed the info about the red Mute Lights on the Mixer window  - I blame it on old age, and too much time spent early last year with the non released initial "beta" FTP Control panel version (which works differently than the initial public release version we know since April 2013)   Since last August I use FTP with iPad 99% of the time. While its true that a modern Macbook Pro and FTP Control Panel and all the bundled FTP app Suite deliver good value and functionality for modern guitarists - I'm hesitant to bring a $4k laptop to a bar gig where folks tend to get wild in reaction to my band performing
     


tomtheguitarguy

Quote from: tomtheguitarguy on March 17, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
Well, an update for ya...

Contacted Fishman.

They indicated that the "mute" button on the FTP software isn't supposed to go on/offwhen using the switch on the controller.  So nothing wrong there.

They recommended that I try re-pairing the controller and usb dongle (suggested that it be done often actually, to ensure a "good match"). 

After doing as suggested, I still have the same issue - synth sounds while the switch on the controller is set to Guitar.  Intermittent - and that's what's frustrating.  I emailed Fishman and reported my findings - I thought it might just be a Mac issue, since I just updated to Maverick on an old(er) 2008 MacBook Pro - but I get the same issues when I use it on my Windows 8 laptop and the iPad...  :(

Anyway, they suggested that I may have a faulty controller and are asking me to send it in for them to have a look out.  So the good news is Fishman is going to take a look at it - the bad news:  no synth for me for a while  :(  :(  :(

Anyway, just wanted to update you all to show you that Fishman is supporting the FTP with no hesitation!

Will update you as things go...

I shipped the FTP back to Fishman at their recommendation.  Waited a few days and received a follow up email that stated that they couldn't find anything wrong with the FTP controller (or USB dongle).  So I'm back to square one...   :( :( :(

http://www.tomtheguitarguy.com ~ http://www.tomcatsband.com
CIJ Blue Floral w/ McVay G Bender
G & L Will Ray Signature ASAT w/ Hipshot B Bender
JTV-69 James Tyler Variax
Fishman TriplePlay ~ Roland GR-55
Dr. Z RxES 2x12
Quilter MicroPro200 10" ~ Quilter Aviator 8" ~ Quilter Steelaire
Bose L1 Classic

Elantric

#23
I see these MIDI Messages (non FTP Hardware Mode)

Three way switch Position

"Guitar" = MIDI CC#63 = 1

"Synth" = MIDI CC#63 = 2

"MIX" = MIDI CC#63 = 3

Not seeing any activity on MIDI CC#7


Contact MATT at Fishman Support, and have him explain how FTP three way switched to "Guitar" is supposed to work. With Examples!

shawnb

#24
I'd really try a different midi device/pc somehow.   To truly narrow it down to the device.   Or not.

Hmmm...   Above, you state it happens on the iPad, your Mac, and on a Win8 system....

Can you briefly describe each setup?

What midi device ARE you using for each?

Do you have any other midi drivers, devices installed?

You're using the ftp app (on win& Mac), right?
What vsts?   Does it happen on all vsts, or just one?

Can you think of any product you have running that might filter out /take control of channel 8 messages?  Or the ftp control port messages?    Ms midi mapper?  Ms wavetable synth?

Just some thoughts, things to look into, thinking out loud here.

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp