Tripleplay - Parameters affecting tracking between different soft synths

Started by Headless68, October 05, 2014, 05:41:04 PM

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ricstudioc

Just bumpin' this, I've been meaning to start a post.  Same basic issue here, where the fretboard display shows correct note recognition but what gets played is (now that I think of it fairly consistently) a half step off.  Been driving me nuts - I WANT to love this thing.

JTV-69 w/actual Fender Strat neck, meticulous setup, trem system blocked flat on the deck.  And I've been a 13 pin guy since the late 90's, so I kinda know my way around this stuff.

When I get home today I'll check those PB settings in the various vsti's - and I'll keep an eye on this thread.  To the OP, please keep us advised!

Spider

This is part of my set-up (JTV-59P + FTP) and I haven't such problems with hard or soft synth.



shawnb

I added a screenshot for Sampletank 2.5's PBR setting.   
(The other Sampletank screenshot was for ST3.)
You must select "Synth" first, then update the knob called "Bender".

I had to include it, mainly because I like the name... Bender!~    ;D
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Belewguitar

SO this didn't help.... Kontakt is set to 24 and i set my fish man there as well... It made things much worse... Did I do something wrong?
NO my guitar isn't broken, its just missing its head.

Elantric


Spider

Show me how you set Kontakt for 24. I couldn't = it isn't possible if you don't get deeper into edit mode of instruments.

Headless68

A few more hours later ......
Ok read the triple play VST user guide, Kontakt manual and the NI user forum
Set my patch up with 6 x piano and assigned midi channels 1 to 6
Now I hit the wall - the advice to amend pitch bend range is not available here - the forums suggest 'adding in pitch bend if it's not in the rack' (it's not)

From the manual this looks like : instrument edit mode > edit all groups
Then on the left panel select modules > modulators > then from the list drag 'pitch bend" and drop it at the bottom of the rack on 'modulation'
However I just get a circle with a line through (actually I tried it every where on the screen and I can't drop it in any where at all )

Incidentally I came across a midi monitor in kontact and that is reading the pitchbend info coming from the FTP, it's just ignoring it - so close !

Any further advise welcome

Screen shot


Headless68

If only that screen shot was in the manual :-)
Will give it a go tomorrow

Headless68

WINNER !!!!!!
Thanks so much guys

PBR set at 12 on FTP and on each of the 6 piano instances - one final thing, the FTP panel setting for pitchbend had to be set on trigger & it's responding great :-)

Suggest this might be a useful sticky for other 'new to soft synth' users

Cheers
Phil

Headless68

To make kontact 24 (or 36) you have to add another pitchbend panel in add modulator each one gives another 12

This may be relevant to your original issue - been playing around trying to get my tracking responding properly ( on other thread) I noticed that my setup goes out if the FTP panel setting on touch sensitivity is set to pick - if it's on finger style it's perfect?
Worth a try

Cheers
Phil

Belewguitar

So my FTP was set to 12... setting it to 24 to match the +/- 12 made everything worse... I'm lost.
NO my guitar isn't broken, its just missing its head.

Headless68

This resolved all my issues and Kontact now tracks the same as the factory patches
Much appreciated all

Thanks
Phil

Spider

Quote from: Belewguitar on October 10, 2014, 08:30:26 PM
So my FTP was set to 12... setting it to 24 to match the +/- 12 made everything worse... I'm lost.

Set 12 or 24 but the same value in FTP and inside any synthesizer.

Belewguitar

I apologize for my ignorance, but does that mean the FTP PB setting should be set to 12 or 24?

thanks
NO my guitar isn't broken, its just missing its head.

Headless68

The recommendation I found from fishman was 12 - I have that set in ,FTP option and matched it in the soft synths and all is working as it should be
If you needed more than 12 that's ok as long as whatever you set is the same in both

shawnb

Quote from: Belewguitar on October 13, 2014, 07:20:30 AM
I apologize for my ignorance, but does that mean the FTP PB setting should be set to 12 or 24?

thanks

Belewguitar - have you sorted this out yet?   

To answer your specific question above - the PB setting should match the setting for the voice in your synth.  It can be any value, 12 or 24 is recommended.   BUT... you must ALSO ensure that your synth/VST patch is set to the SAME VALUE. 

*** ONE OTHER CRITICAL NOTE...   For folks who may be 1/2 step off, or a bit sour...   The Global FTP parameter "Tune Base" is used to specify alternate tuning - other than A440.   Navigate to your Menu Tree & confirm your TUNE BASE is as expected.   This does not change notes sent by the FTP, but it does attempt to reprogram your synth/VST...

*** When in doubt, set your TUNE BASE to 0.   (A440)

*** Upon powerup (and whenever you change the Tune Base setting), the FTP sends out a MIDI RPN on all channels to attempt to re-tune your synth to bring it in line with your FTP's TUNE BASE setting.  Many HW synths support the RPN tuning method; it is possible some VSTs also support this.


I have experimented & Kontakt & Sampletank do NOT respond to RPNs, as far as I can tell. 

The FTP's usage of RPNs is more likely to impact HW synth users. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

BobbyD

Friends.....I have a FTP and noticed yesterday that not a single patch sounds good.  It's almost like every few notes, something goes out of tune.  The guitar is tuned up all the time and these patches always sounded amazing. I believe a midi parameter somehow got changed.  I am clueless.   Thxs.  BobbyD

Elantric


read ALL ABOVE and

www.panda-audio.com/midiguitar.php


I spent most of the last thirty years designing guitar synthesizers. I developed several generations of devices from the Shadow GTM-6 / SH-075 through the Blue Chip Music / Terratec Axon until the Fishman Triple Play today. Over this period I answered thousands of questions from users who had some difficulties to understand certain features or behavior of their devices. Now, as I have here a web page of my company, Panda-Audio, I want to take the opportunity to summarize this information in the form of an FAQ. I hope I can help users of guitar synthesizers a better understanding of their devices with this information. While these answers are based on my designs, I believe most of the information here is true for Roland or other devices too. I will update this page time to time with questions whatever I recall from my memories, or whatever new questions arise.
See that on my web page:

http://www.panda-audio.com/midiguitar.php

Andras Szalay




=====

Unintended pitch change of the sound.
When you pick a string, at the very beginning the pitch is always more or less higher than the intended pitch. I mean "intended pitch" here the pitch of the string as it is sustained for several seconds. This is where you tune the string to your reference. There are several physical reasons why the pitch at the very beginning is higher than the sustained value, sometimes by more than a semitone.
One of the reasons is well known in classical physics: the pitch of a string vibration has a steady frequency only if the amplitude of the vibration is negligible to the length of the string. If it is not negligible, then the vibration causes an increased average tension in the string, and higher tension means higher pitch. This effect depends on two factors:
the tension of the string: thin strings have lower tension for the same pitch, so can be played with much higher amplitude, thus the pitch deviation is higher as well.
the harder you pick, the higher is the deviation.
There is another reason for unintended high pitch in the attack. The short picking pulse that started from your pick is propagating towards the point where you fretted the string. However, if the pulse is large (you picked hard), and the string deviation is large (light gauge string), and the string height is low, then the pulse slightly hits the fret that is one higher than the one that you fretted, simply because the string is so close to this fret. This results a reflection from this fret that appears in the first vibration cycle as a one semitone higher note. This happens only in the very first cycle of the vibration, since the amplitude of the pulse gets very much smaller even by the second reflection.
It is of course natural, if you do not get this problem with a Roland, since it does not recognize pitch from the first cycle anyway. Also, it is good to know that if you turn the pick sensitivity to finger picking, it will skip recognition in the first cycle, so this problem will probably not happen. With this knowledge, here are some tips how to eliminate this problem:
First and most important: Even with a piano sound it is not necessary to play in Trigger mode. If you use Quantize to semitones then you get just as well quantized pitch like in trigger mode, but these glitches at the very beginning of the note will not be audible, if the synth has a good and fast response. Of course, this works really well only in MONO mode, on six MIDI channels.
Use medium or hard gauge strings, no light or extra light.
Adjust the string height to be as high as you can tolerate.
Play softly, do not pick hard.
Play with the tip of the plectrum, not with the flat part
Finger Picking Mode, if the slightly slower response does not hurt.

shawnb

Three thoughts:
  -  We have had a couple instances of similar issues & a reset of the FTP fixed it.  Try resetting.
  -  If the issue is primarily with legato & pitch bends, it's probably your PBR setting.   
  -  If you're driving a hardware synth, make sure your TUNE BASE is set to 0.

Similar thread here - several options explored in depth:
   https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12511.msg90919#msg90919

If the above doesn't help, it would help to know things like:
  -  Which mode do you use?  Basic?  Hardware?  Or do you use the app?
  -  Which pitch bend mode?
  -  What you're playing thru, which VST/synth

If you find what it is, please share!

FWIW - I have a simple stock MIM strat bridge, and the out of tune issues are no different than running the guitar thru an amp (and I'm usually in one of the non-chromatic modes).  Yes, I tune a couple times a night, but it's never particularly noticeable. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

thunderfingers

Hammer ons and pull offs are often read as pitch bends rather than a new note. That is why the pitch bend range for the samples in Kontact or Sampletank must match those in Tripleplay. I much prefer a value of 12 because it seems to follow bends more accurately than the 2 which is what the default is in the sample tank patches. I have to go in and update them to 12 FOR EVERY STRING and EVERY PATCH in sample tank.