FRFR v Open back (almost FRFR)

Started by ntblade, June 12, 2012, 05:42:59 AM

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ntblade

Hi all, sorry if this is not strictly Vguitar but there's a lot of knowledge here.
I've recently started running a Godin XTSA into a GT-10 which gets plugged into 2 x Laney Audiohub 100s.  I'm pretty happy with this setup so far, especially the cleans as I can get some really nice acoustic tones  from the Godin's piezos as well as some nice blends (I'm about to build a simple A/B switcher for the Godin controlled by the GT-10).  I've not had the GT-10 long and I'm only just scratching the surface of what it can do.

Now my question is, has anyone had experience with running GT-nns / GR-nns / VG-nns into an open backed type of semi-FRFR like a Tech 21 Power engine?  I'm really talking about how piezos would sound as the PEs don't have tweeters.  I'm asking as our drummer constantly complains that he can't hear a thing I'm playing (that's mebbe a good thing since he'll miss the howlers!) but he and the rest of us can hear our other guitarist much better who uses open backed cabs. - The Laney are closed and ported to the rear.

Also, since I have a limited budget (and PEs seem pretty expensive for what they are) I was thinking of trying other solid state open - backed combos like the Line 6 flextones and running my GT onto the effects return or even using the 4 cable hook up method.  I would be able to include / bypass the amp pre-amp if I wanted and it seems that the speaker sims can be switched off.

I realise that the guitar combos have guitar speakers but it wouldn't take much to swap them for a twin cone unit or even a woofer / tweeter combo like the Laneys have.

The principal should work with pretty much any amp with an effects loop and solid state power amp so long as the power amp is reasonably transparent.  I would imagine this would be the case appart from some amps like valvestates (which can sometimes be switched off anyway)

Any thoughts folks?

NTB
8o)

PS I'm cross posting this to Boos GT Central

Werkshop

Unfortunately, I have no answers for you, but I think this is a great, legitimate question and deserves answering--so hopefully this bump does the trick!

Elantric

#2
All Speaker recommendations are highly subjective and always a matter of personal taste.

Each of us are individuals and there is no "perfect speaker" or "perfect amplifier" that suits Everyone's needs or requirements.

This explains why I own so many different types - so I can use the appropriate type amp  or cab for the gig or session. (although these days the Kemper Profiling Amp straight into the board makes many of my amps obsolete!)

Today - I vote that a pair of QSC K12 powered cabs would be my ideal stage amplification for VG-99 / GR-55.

That is what I heard and saw Dweezil Zappa use for his Fractal AXE-FX based rig, and he had great tone.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5326.msg36446#msg36446

(There is one QSC K12 on the floor behind the Telecaster here:)


IN GENERAL - (not an absolute rule) but an "open back" cab will have less low end frequency response than a closed back cab.  But many guitarists prefer an open back cab for various reasons.

* Open back cabs are nearly as loud in front as they are from behind. In some small club situations the drummer can use the sound emerging from the rear of the open back cab as a guitar monitor.  Conversely, most PA sound men Really hate guitar amps and open back guitar amps the worst - because the bleed over of guitar tones into the stage drum mics and overhead cymbal mics  - will wreak havoc with the front of house (FOH) PA mix, and leave zero ability for the sound man to turn down your guitar in the House PA mix 

Or - do what Joe Bonamassa does - USe closed back cabs, and place plexiglass panels in front of your guitar cabs - so the sound man has tighter control on the FOH mix.



* But open back cabs are prone to phase errors in the room  - which become part of the guitarist's tone. Sound pressure waves emerge from both the front and the rear of the cab, and can bounce off the walls of the room they are in and create dead zones in the room as co-incident out of phase sound pressure waves converge.

But many guitarists do prefer an open back cab for a specific type of "live" sound  - its a matter of preference.

But in general an open back cab can not deliver the low end punch of a closed back Marshall 4 x 12 cab,

But on the other hand an open back cab tends to not invade the low frequency space of the Bass player.

Its important to choose the right amp. I might use a very different amp and speaker cab for solo work compared to the type of amp I would use in a full 5 piece band. In a band environment - As a guitarist I feel its crucial to find "Your voice"  - one that works and allows you to cut through without stepping on other players bandwidth or tone.

For example If I'm sitting in with a Blues band and other guitarist uses a Strat feeding a 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb (22 watt Tube amp with single 12" Jensen P12N,   open back ) - I would bring my Les Paul or ES-335 and perhaps my 2011 Super Champ XD head feeding a closed back cab loaded with Celestion G12-80 - just to know I will have a unique separate tone character that will not be fighting for bandwidth or frequency range of the other guitarist.

I tend not to haul too many gadgets or effects to most gigs, as they can breakdown or be distracting.

I prefer to focus on playing in the groove and contributing a melodic counterpart  to contribute to sounding like an ensemble within the band context.
   
Most of my toys (VG-99, GR-55, Vetta, Variax, HD500, Vox Tonelab) stay home in my studio 80% of the time.



My most frequently used amps today are (in this order):

Roland Cube 80 XL (Single 12" full range speaker  - Closed Back)
Fender Mustang Mini ( I play many low volume gigs at folk coffee houses as a surf instrumental duo with my bass player)
2010 Fender Super Champ XD
'68 Fender Vibrolux Reverb with custom speaker baffle loaded with 12" EVM 12L and 10" Jensen C10Q
2004 Line 6 Vetta (2x12" with custom closed back)
'66 Vox AC30 TB head into a Vox Royal Guardsman 2x12 closed back cab loaded with Celestion G12-30
Roland VG-88 into a pair of JBL Eon 15P powered cabs
Vox ToneLab SE into Traynor K4

I just got my Line 6 DT 50 2x12 amp last christmas, and it has still not left my house yet - saving it for after I fully debug my JTV Variax  / HD500 / DT-50 / GR-55  rig.

I also own a Kemper Profiling amp - but I'm waiting for the Kemper foot controller to take full advantage of it for live. 

I do play many different musical genres, but last few years I have been predominately performing in a Surf instrumental band - and 90% of the time I find the right sound I'm seeking for that genre using:

2006 DiPinto Galaxie IV guitar with Jazzmaster tremolo > 1963 Fender Tube Reverb > Barber Tone Press compressor > Boss LS-2 (as booster only ) > Dan Electro Tremolo > Line 6 Echo Park > Roland Cube 80 XL on COSM BlackFace Fender setting.     

I will stop talking about gear now, as all the above only represents a partial list of my gear collection.

Last count I own 30+ stringed instruments and 20+ Amps.

I do support my local "Guitars not Guns" program for at risk youth, and have bought and sold a few guitars specifically to raise funds for that program.







whippinpost91850

Elantric, Bravo on your support of Guitars not Guns program.

Werkshop

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on July 04, 2012, 12:41:17 PM
Elantric, Bravo on your support of Guitars not Guns program.

I second this.

(Although I own both guitars AND guns.  ;))

rolandvg99

Quote from: Elantric on July 03, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
... I do support my local "Guitars not Guns" program for at risk youth, and have bought and sold a few guitars specifically to raise funds for that program.

Hat off. That restored my faith in humanity. Quite the opposite of what I guess Ted Nugent could have done (I certainly don't know him as a person and have never met him, so that's just a wild assumption based of what I've read, seen in concerts and on the Tellie. Now, sue me. ;)).
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Elantric

#6
QuoteI just got my Line 6 DT 50 2x12 amp last christmas, and it has still not left my house yet - saving it for after I fully debug my JTV Variax  / HD500 / DT-50 / GR-55  rig.

I should state one very apparent aspect of owning the Line 6 DT50 Amp is that when i read the Line 6 Support forums, its very apparent for 90% of the people who post there- the DT50 or DT25 is their very first Tube Amp experience. Lots of dumb questions, and not too many folks who can grasp the concept of how it integrates with the HD500.  I admit I was motivated to buy  the DT50 so i could investigate the Line "L6" Link interface - and see if that could be utilized for other purposes.   


myksara

I just bought a Tech21 Power Engine 60 which has a 12" celestial speaker after reading some reviews on the web and was made to believe that it is a good bet for my GR55+Godin LGXT setup or any other amp modeling device like the small KORG PANDORA PX5D that I use for practice.

I basically wanted a stage monitor that would produce a similar tone from all my patches that I get from my headphones and an amp not heavier than  13 kilos (this one weighs the same)

The Tech 21 PE60 is a pretty easy to use amp with just volume,bass,mid,treble controls which is what I wanted so that I don't spend time on setting up my amp after all the hard work done on the multiFX.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THIS AMP ACTUALLY SUCKS FOR ACOUSTIC AND CLEAN SOUNDS!!

My Godin LGXT piezos sounded crap and the cleans didnot sound good at all.
Lot of mid range type boom from the amp and tweaking the EQ on the amp didn't help either. It is not even close to a full range!

It can get pretty loud though. But I wanted a versatile amp that could handle the acoustic sounds, synth sounds and guitar sounds equally well.
But since this amp fails miserable in the acoustic/piezo department, I am absolutely not unsatisfied!!

Here in India, the shops don't take back the stuff for an exchange and I had it ordered from a different city so could not try it before buying either.

This is up for sale and I personally feel that this is highly overpriced for what it delivers!!!..

I am better off direct into the PA until I find a suitable amp for my needs..!!!

Any comments on the Roland KC150 amp? I think it sounds better than this hyped Tech21 Power Engine 60.
Guitars: Ibanez Prestige S5470, Ibanez Jem 7v, Ibanez JS2410, PRS SE Custom24, Cort  Ltd G16, Ibanez RG370Ahmz,
MultiFX: Roland GR55, Zoom 1on, BOSS GT00
Loopers: Digitech trio+, Line 6 JM4
MIDI:, MAudio Axiom24 keyboard, Alesis IO Dock with iPad air 2

Elantric

Folks who recommend Tech 21 Power Engines are typically rock / Blues guitarists who who play distorted tones. They are terrible for clean acoustic music, but many folks found they can be improved by adding tweeters.

Here are details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6748.msg46671#msg46671

Bill Ruppert

#9
Its not built for full range.
You need to add bullet tweeters.
I did and it sounds GREAT:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6748.msg46671#msg46671