Surface Pro - first impressions

Started by mbenigni, March 01, 2013, 07:32:10 AM

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polaris20

Quote from: musicman65 on March 09, 2013, 09:19:32 AMI know you'll blast me for this but I'll say it anyways:

You guys are unconsciously biased by your familiarity with iPads. Let me explain. Other devices will have become "not intuitive, cumbersome" in the same way that an alternately tuned 5 string guitar with knobs that function backwards would be. This is because of the time spent training your reflexes through repetitive actions to the point where things become automatic...."intuitive"....it helps when the design is good, no doubt. But, once trained, even other usable perhaps even good designs don't feel right....just like the alt tuned backwards guitar.

For those of us Windows x86 users, the majority, that want a "more mobile" device that has capabilities that replace our laptops and provide a touch environment, the device works.

As far as being cumbersome, the above mentioned guitar would be for me.....but it just so happens that I have run using x86 apps on touchscreens and tablets for since the Windows 3.1 days so its nothing new to me. I have little experience with anything Apple related but have had to set up RDP connections, email settings and other mundane tasks for I users that can't read instructions. My perception is that it felt counterintuitive to me, just like the Win8 felt to you.

I have been using the predecessor (and better version) of the Surface Pro since Nov 2011. It was more expensive and ran Win7-64 Pro. I have no issues using it, I am not maddened, nor am I frustrated. It has changed the way I compute yet retained my investment in applications and time learning the numerous apps I rely on daily. Based on MY expectations after living with my device, I would be unhappy with an Android or iPad tablet...waaaay too limited IMO.

I see this pattern of preference based on pprevious experience all the time. Its how humans function. Its also why the first widely adopted products to market establish the path all others think they must follow....which can actually limit innovation in the long run but inversely does establish a shared knowledge and familiarity we users find comforting.

Blast away....just pointing out some observations about human nature. :)

bd

Your bias is just as heavy as ours may be. I've been a sysadmin/network engineer for 10 years, with experience on Linux, OSX, and Windows, and when it comes to being objective and unemotional when it comes to technology, I think I do a pretty good job. I bounce from iOS to Android to Win8, Server 2008, 2012, Ubuntu with GNOME, XFCE, or Unity, and the shell. OS X as well. They all couldn't be more different.

It's only natural for us as humans to have certain preferences, but I don't think those preferences are blinding me here.

It's a fact that the majority of Windows apps aren't designed for touch targets. It's a fact that iOS and Android apps are. That's going to be an immediate obstacle for many people on a 10" Windows tablet.

My fingers are extremely skinny, yet I had trouble with it. My co-worker couldn't use it at all without the stylus.

Windows 8 isn't difficult to use once you know the gestures. There's a profound difference between intuitive design and ease of use, and you don't necessarily have to have the former in order to be a good product.

However if you need to use a stylus just to hit certain targets, I'm not seeing the immediate benefit of a touch interface anymore. I'd rather just use a Windows 8 laptop with Start8, or a MacBook, either of which get better battery life than the Surface.

Microsoft should have gone completely Metro with no desktop interface for tablets, but kept x86 underneath and not gone the ARM route. Haswell should help a bit with battery life and heat, and therefore also weight.

Have developers port their app with the same engine but with a touch UI. Imagine Cubase on a full x86 tablet, but with a UI similar to Cubasis on the iPad. Problem solved.

As it stands, Windows 8 tablets have the same problem they've always had since Windows XP Tablet Edition tablets came out 11-12 years ago.

I'm glad you enjoy yours, and that's great. That's why we all have choices. But also realize that like iOS and Android, Win8 as a tablet platform isn't infallible.

iOS is highly restricted, and carries challenges there obviously. Android, as it applies for audio, is far behind due to both latency and lack of good apps. There is no perfect platform, IMO. Therefore we choose which closest fits our needs.

People, especially tech minded people like you and the folks on this board will always say the iPad is limiting. This is undoubtably true, when compared to a desktop OS.

The real question that has to be asked however, is who is it limiting for, and do these limitations hinder productivity, and if not, what do the limitations matter?

The answer will obviously be different for each of us, which is fine. That's again why we have choice.

Imagine a world where Macs were the only viable creative platform. Those days are gone. Aren't we lucky to have all these choices in creative toys? I think so.

musicman65

Never said I wasn't biased. I'm just not biased like you! :) :) The only unbiased user is a new user with no previous experience.

Use whatever works for you...but understand there is a whole world of business users disappointed by I products that can't deliver. The Surface Pro is filling that niche nicely. Pen computing is embraced by folks that NEED to sketch, take notes, use business apps....working professionals.

bd





polaris20

Quote from: musicman65 on March 09, 2013, 03:12:18 PMNever said I wasn't biased. I'm just not biased like you! :) :) The only unbiased user is a new user with no previous experience.

Use whatever works for you...but understand there is a whole world of business users disappointed by I products that can't deliver. The Surface Pro is filling that niche nicely. Pen computing is embraced by folks that NEED to sketch, take notes, use business apps....working professionals.

bd

Also understand that iPads have been deployed by the boatload in enterprises everywhere, including my business, to very satisfied users, while Windows 8 tablets have barely penetrated.

I'm not making this up, and it's not just my company. Google "iPad enterprise adoption" and "windows 8 tablet enterprise adoption".  

I've already had several people turn down the Thinkpad. Everyone has their anecdotal evidence. People love Windows 7 or OSX on their desk, and their iPads for notes, email, web, Citrix, etc.

This isn't a contest though. I don't really care what you like or use, tbh. If. You're happy, super. It's not like I hate Windows 8. Quite the contrary. I just think its quite lacking on a tablet.

polaris20

Let me add that I admire your dedication to the Windows tablet platform, and as a fan of Windows 7 and now 8, I really wanted to like it on a tablet. I just don't. It's really got nothing to do with a bias towards the iPad. If I didn't have the iPad and the only choice was the Win8 tablet, I just wouldn't use a tablet. Simple as that.

We'll have to agree to having very different opinions. :)

mbenigni

#29
I could go on and on about the Apple vs. Windows biases.  I personally find MacOS and iTunes and that whole world to be maddeningly over-complicated; walled gardens of abstraction and misdirection, as far from "intuitive" as you can get IMO.  That said, I think polaris makes some observations about the current Win8 tablets that are completely legitimate, some of them even objectively true.

I would agree that the 16:9 thing on a 10" or similar screen is just ridiculous.  The only thing it really suits is widescreen film, and who cares about widescreen film on a 10" screen anyway??  Surely presentation of print media (typically closer to 4:3) for reading, etc. would be a more common application?

I also agree (as I've said before) that Microsoft has dropped the ball in terms of making the actual Win8 desktop useable on a tablet.  However, I disagree with polaris' idea that the desktop should be eliminated altogether - it would completely defeat the purpose for me if I had to sacrifice my old apps and wait around for devs to be kind enough to deliver them anew for the Metro interface.  I'd sooner have an app that's difficult to use than no app at all.  BUT I think any damn fool should have looked at the scaling issues (small targets and menu items) and the availability of a multi-touch input surface and seen full-screen pinch-zoom/ scrolling as an opportunity and a necessity.  In the same way that I thought MS missed the boat by maintaining the 32-bit/64-bit schism when they went from Vista to Win7, they missed another boat by not making all of Win8 gesture-aware all the time.  A Windows 8 Service Pack with some kind of UI enhancement to this effect could go a long way toward fixing the touch-only Windows desktop experience, but I'm not holding my breath.

As for the Metro apps themselves not being available or not being as mature as equivalent iOS apps, I'm not really concerned about that.  It's way too early to judge, and I knew that going in.  I accept that I may even need to do some development of my own before I have everything I need.  Until then, the Surface Pro still delivers what I was looking for: a tiny PC that's more powerful than any laptop I've ever owned, adequately powerful to replace my desktop (for everything except gaming, which I do less and less of on PC anyway), and which serves reasonably well as a tablet for many applications.  It's a great opportunity to centralize all of my data and simplify my workflow.  But, as everyone else has said "that's just me" - I know that having a single platform isn't relevant to everyone; some would (reasonably) prefer multiple devices each of which are optimized for a given application.

There's no question that iPad has by far the greater market share and momentum, and I can't predict whether Win8 tablets will take off.  I don't foresee Surface Pro ever toppling iPad, but I think it may be pretty widely adopted by people who would otherwise have picked up a Windows ultrabook.  If the Win8 install base is there (almost an inevitability at this point), and the touchscreens are out there, decent Metro apps will follow as a matter of course.  I just wish MS would throw us legacy users a bone in the meantime.

polaris20

Quote from: mbenigni on March 11, 2013, 01:03:32 PM
I could go on and on about the Apple vs. Windows biases.  I personally find MacOS and iTunes and that whole world to be maddeningly over-complicated; walled gardens of abstraction and misdirection, as far from "intuitive" as you can get IMO.  That said, I think polaris makes some observations about the current Win8 tablets that are completely legitimate, some of them even objectively true.

I would agree that the 16:9 thing on a 10" or similar screen is just ridiculous.  The only thing it really suits is widescreen film, and who cares about widescreen film on a 10" screen anyway??  Surely presentation of print media (typically closer to 4:3) for reading, etc. would be a more common application?

I also agree (as I've said before) that Microsoft has dropped the ball in terms of making the actual Win8 desktop useable on a tablet.  However, I disagree with polaris' idea that the desktop should be eliminated altogether - it would completely defeat the purpose for me if I had to sacrifice my old apps and wait around for devs to be kind enough to deliver them anew for the Metro interface.  I'd sooner have an app that's difficult to use than no app at all.  BUT I think any damn fool should have looked at the scaling issues (small targets and menu items) and the availability of a multi-touch input surface and seen full-screen pinch-zoom/ scrolling as an opportunity and a necessity.  In the same way that I thought MS missed the boat by maintaining the 32-bit/64-bit schism when they went from Vista to Win7, they missed another boat by not making all of Win8 gesture-aware all the time.  A Windows 8 Service Pack with some kind of UI enhancement to this effect could go a long way toward fixing the touch-only Windows desktop experience, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't know that I worded that right. I don't necessarily mean that the desktop should go away, and everything should be Metro. I think that desktop apps need touch UI's; just please, not the Metro UI. My example of something like full Cubase, with a variant of the Cubasis touch UI from iOS would be a great example. I still think the desktop in terms of file navigation, the WinExplore shell, etc. should definitely be there.

mbenigni

QuoteI don't know that I worded that right. I don't necessarily mean that the desktop should go away, and everything should be Metro. I think that desktop apps need touch UI's; just please, not the Metro UI. My example of something like full Cubase, with a variant of the Cubasis touch UI from iOS would be a great example. I still think the desktop in terms of file navigation, the WinExplore shell, etc. should definitely be there.

Ah, in that case we're in agreement pretty much across the board.  I'm not familiar with Cubasis Touch UI, but there's no question that DAW's etc will need at the very least a reskin in order to work effectively with touchscreens.  The only Windows developer who's openly discussing plans to this effective is Cakewalk.  I'm kind of amazed that Ableton is doing nothing, considering the timing of their Live 9 release dovetails nicely with the uptick in Windows 8 laptop and tablet sales.

So... a few possible outcomes, none of which are going to happen overnight:  the improvement of existing Win8 desktop apps to provide better views and facilitate input on small touchscreens;  the development of new music apps for Metro; the improvement of Win8 itself to allow for intuitive zooming on a moment-by-moment basis.  That last bit could come from MS, or from a third party developer delivering some kind of a hack.

But I wouldn't write off the Metro app store just yet.  Setting aside the viability of the current batch of tablets, the huge Windows install base will provide a market for Metro apps, and someone will step up to sell to that market.  (Provided Microsoft doesn't do another 180 and ditch Metro in the meantime LOL.) 

I'd be happy for the moment with a simple VST host with a Metro UI, for loading up Guitar Rig and and some softs and mixing on the fly.  Maybe I'll write my own in all my (LOL) spare time.

polaris20

Quote from: mbenigni on March 12, 2013, 06:40:21 AM
Ah, in that case we're in agreement pretty much across the board.  I'm not familiar with Cubasis Touch UI, but there's no question that DAW's etc will need at the very least a reskin in order to work effectively with touchscreens.  The only Windows developer who's openly discussing plans to this effective is Cakewalk.  I'm kind of amazed that Ableton is doing nothing, considering the timing of their Live 9 release dovetails nicely with the uptick in Windows 8 laptop and tablet sales.

So... a few possible outcomes, none of which are going to happen overnight:  the improvement of existing Win8 desktop apps to provide better views and facilitate input on small touchscreens;  the development of new music apps for Metro; the improvement of Win8 itself to allow for intuitive zooming on a moment-by-moment basis.  That last bit could come from MS, or from a third party developer delivering some kind of a hack.

But I wouldn't write off the Metro app store just yet.  Setting aside the viability of the current batch of tablets, the huge Windows install base will provide a market for Metro apps, and someone will step up to sell to that market.  (Provided Microsoft doesn't do another 180 and ditch Metro in the meantime LOL.) 

I'd be happy for the moment with a simple VST host with a Metro UI, for loading up Guitar Rig and and some softs and mixing on the fly.  Maybe I'll write my own in all my (LOL) spare time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain it's not possible to write low latency audio apps that work within the Metro paradigm, due to the development languages used and the inability to access low level hardware.

musicman65

Perhaps the graphic interface could run in WinRT (metro) as an interface to a host app running in x86-64bit? That would allow existing apps with strong MIDI integration like Cubase and Reaper to have a simpler interface for common tasks.

bd

mbenigni

Quote from: polaris20 on March 12, 2013, 08:33:47 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain it's not possible to write low latency audio apps that work within the Metro paradigm, due to the development languages used and the inability to access low level hardware.

I'm not knowledgeable on the topic myself, but what you're saying makes sense considering the Metro half of the OS is designed to run on such diverse CPU's.  Perhaps there is a workaround as musicman describes, or perhaps this would be better realized as a proper x86 desktop app which is intended to run in full-screen mode, with a UI tailored to touchscreen.  (Cakewalk is headed there right now, actually, but I expect screen size will continue to be an issue on most tablets.)

polaris20

Quote from: mbenigni on March 12, 2013, 09:19:34 AM
I'm not knowledgeable on the topic myself, but what you're saying makes sense considering the Metro half of the OS is designed to run on such diverse CPU's.  Perhaps there is a workaround as musicman describes, or perhaps this would be better realized as a proper x86 desktop app which is intended to run in full-screen mode, with a UI tailored to touchscreen.  (Cakewalk is headed there right now, actually, but I expect screen size will continue to be an issue on most tablets.)

I don't think the answer is mixing in the Metro interface just to get a properly designed tablet UI. They're going to have to likely have a separate binary for the tablet though, because according to the dev at work (I'm on the network/sysadmin side) the development environment for MS doesn't really allow for a "click here if you're installing for a tablet" option. This could be wrong, I'm just basing this off of what he said. He did say Metro makes it pretty much impossible for low latency apps though, which is a shame.

mbenigni

QuoteMS doesn't really allow for a "click here if you're installing for a tablet" option

I don't think this would be down to MS so much as the application developer.  And I don't think it would need to be that cut and dry necessarily.  Yes, at one end of the spectrum a developer could deliver two different binaries (1 for touchscreen, 1 for mouse and keyboard) or two different install options, but a more moderate and likely approach is a single binary and UI designed to be well-suited to both.  This primarily boils down to ensuring that all UI elements can be resized and repositioned to suit a given user's hardware and workflow.

polaris20

Quote from: mbenigni on March 13, 2013, 09:31:18 AM
I don't think this would be down to MS so much as the application developer.  And I don't think it would need to be that cut and dry necessarily.  Yes, at one end of the spectrum a developer could deliver two different binaries (1 for touchscreen, 1 for mouse and keyboard) or two different install options, but a more moderate and likely approach is a single binary and UI designed to be well-suited to both.  This primarily boils down to ensuring that all UI elements can be resized and repositioned to suit a given user's hardware and workflow.

Good point, though I wonder how easily adjustable a UI could be for such different input paradigms. We shall see!

musicman65

I've been selling and installing Process Control software that can run on touchscreens or KB/mouse systems. The dev tools have been around for 15 years to dynamically scale objects on screens on the fly. Most Devs don't take the time to do this. On a 5 million dollar control system, the graphics better be flexible! It is expected.

If TouchOSC or one of the other vendors is making a WinRT version of their MIDI control panel software, then a template can be made to control an x86 based DAW.

The GR55 Floorboard is an example of this technology just not on WinRT (yet). Just treat WinRT like a separate device talking to x86 apps. Let x86 do the low latency stuff.

bd

Elantric

#39
Just a point of reference "WinRT" is the low cost version that is only available pre-installed on cheap tablets with ARM CPUs, and never supports any x86 apps. [Does NOT support any Roland VG-99 Editor / Librarians, Gumtowns GR-55 Floorboard Editor, or any DAW apps. (therefore WinRT is rather dull and a non- starter for most here.)

"Windows 8" (with no "RT") is the new Touch enabled OS that still runs older x86 apps.

If you own a machine with a Windows 8 certified Touch Display, then you potentially could run  older x86 apps and navigate with the touchscreen - but in practice its flaky and not comparable to an iPad.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions

Editions

Windows 8
    Windows 8 is the basic edition of Windows for the IA-32 and x64 architectures. Documentation obtained from the ImageX tool and Paul Thurrott's book on Windows 8 also refer to this edition as "Core".[2][3] This edition contains features aimed at the home market segment and provides all of the basic new Windows 8 features including the Start screen with semantic zoom, live tiles, Windows Store, Internet Explorer 10, connected standby, Microsoft account integration, the Windows desktop and more.
Windows 8 Pro
    Windows 8 Pro is comparable to Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate[4][5] and is targeted towards enthusiasts and business users; it includes all the features of Windows 8. Additional features include the ability to receive Remote Desktop connections, the ability to participate in a Windows Server domain, Encrypting File System, Hyper-V, and Virtual Hard Disk Booting, Group Policy as well as BitLocker and BitLocker To Go. Windows Media Center functionality will be available only for Windows 8 Pro as a separate software package.[6]
Windows 8 Enterprise
    Windows 8 Enterprise provides all the features in Windows 8 Pro (except the ability to install the Windows Media Center add-on), with additional features to assist with IT organization (see table below).[4] This edition is available to Software Assurance customers, as well as MSDN and Technet Professional subscribers, and was released on August 16, 2012.[7]
Windows RT
    Windows RT will only be available pre-installed on ARM-based devices such as tablet PCs.[8] It will include touch-optimized desktop versions of the basic set of Office 2013 applications to users—Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote, and support device encryption capabilities. Several business-focused features such as Group Policy and domain support are not included.

    Windows RT only runs third-party software bought from Windows Store.[9] Desktop software that run on previous versions of Windows cannot be run on Windows RT.[10] According to CNET, these essential differences may raise the question of whether Windows RT is an edition of Windows: In a conversation with Mozilla, Microsoft deputy general counsel David Heiner was reported to have said Windows RT "isn't Windows anymore." Mozilla general counsel, however, dismissed the assertion on the basis that Windows RT has the same user interface, application programming interface and update mechanism.[9]

Unlike Windows Vista and Windows 7, there are no Starter, Home Basic, Home Premium, or Ultimate editions.[11]

musicman65

#40
WinRT apps run on both Win8 and WinRT. Win8 includes the WinRT environment. I know this as a Win8 user on a touch only tablet.

Regular apps can and are easily used by utilizing a pointing device (not a blunt finger!). A Wacom digitizer with pen is as accurate as a mouse and just as versatile in the right hands. There are even advantages when using graphics editing software since pressure is used to dynamically control brush strokes.

As I understand it, WinRT is a runtime virtual machine that is available running on top of Win8 or compiled to run on ARM based systems. It allows compatibility between both environments by providing a virtualization layer that is common regardless of the underlying hardware and OS. This is not that different from a Java runtime environment except there is a built in launcher app (the new tile menu) I'm sure my terminology doesn't line up with Microsoft's but that's basically how it works.

Samsung and MS had a predecessor to this on Win7 called Touch Launcher and apps that ran in a separate runtime environment. Technically, WinRT apps should be called Applets since that rely on a host app, WinRT, to run.

That's my understanding anyways. Its easy to see how this gets confusing for the consumer. They should have kept the name "Metro" for the run time VM.

Its not an iPad. Its a PC...a very versatile device, still in its infancy.

bd

Elantric

#41
QuoteIts easy to see how this gets confusing for the consumer. They should have kept the name "Metro" for the run time VM.

Agreed! If I did not know better, I figure Steve Ballmer at Microsoft must be a double agent for Apple - paid on the qt to kill Microsoft.

Personally I find Windows 8 to be a disaster, I tell friends to wait for Windows 9 



http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-systems/windows-9-release-date-news-and-rumours-1029245


But this new Dell XPS18 18" Touch Tablet running an I7 and Windows 8 Pro looks interesting!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2013/03/13/dells-xps-18-all-in-one-doubles-as-18-windows-tablet-weighs-less-than-5-pounds/


http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/pc-mac-desktops/dell-xps-18-1137185/review










---
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2416519,00.asp



Dell today announced the availability of its new Dell XPS 18 Portable All-in-One desktop PC.

Like the Sony Vaio Tap 20 and Lenovo IdeaCentre Horizon, the XPS 18 exists in the space between the tablet and all-in-one desktop form factors. The XPS 18 is centered on its 18.4-inch touch screen, but has an Intel Pentium processor, based on Intel Core technology. It's aimed at the user who needs a full Windows 8 PC, albeit one that can move around the house from room to room while still operating.

The XPS 18 base unit comes with an Intel Pentium 2117U processor, but XPS 18 models can be configured with a selection of Core i3, i5, and i7 processors during the purchase process. The system comes with either 4GB or 8GB of memory, 320-500GB hard drive, 32-512GB mSATA SSD, and Intel integrated graphics. The system comes with two USB 3.0 ports and a single USB 2.0 ports for a keyboard/mouse USB transceiver. The XPS 18 weighs about five pounds and is around-the-house portable, with a claimed five-hour battery life.

The XPS 18 has built-in kickstands for desktop use with or without a wireless keyboard/mouse setup. Dell will also offer a $49 desktop stand with tilt and recharge functions. The system has a webcam on the same side as the screen, but no backward-facing camera, so it's not meant to be a mobile tablet. Instead, the XPS 18 is meant for the home roamer, carrying the system from bedroom to den to kitchen. The system is only 0.69 inches thick, much slimmer than the Sony Vaio Tap 20.

It's interesting that Dell is willing to enter such an untested segment of the market. While the Vaio Tap 20 blazed the trail for portable all-in-one desktops, there haven't been too many other direct competitors yet. Windows 8 practically screams for a touch screen, and the inclusion of a 10-point touch screen on the XPS 18 is, in our opinion, absolutely necessary for a sharable system like this.

The XPS 18 is as light as a large laptop (5 pounds), which makes it a much better candidate for carrying around the house than the 11-pound Tap 20 or the 18-pound IdeaCentre Horizon. You can argue that the Tap 20 has a better stand with tilt mechanism, but we'll hold off on our final summation until we can get the XPS 18 into the PCMag Labs for testing. Look for the review of this and other systems on PCMag.com.

gumtown

From what i understand of WinRt it does not support midi..

Quotes from Synthtopia
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2012/10/25/microsoft-windows-8-now-available/

"At this point, Windows RT does not look like a good option for musicians"

"Notably for musicians, it doesn't support MIDI."

"By comparison, the $329 iPad Mini offers MIDI support, thousands of music apps and a significantly cheaper entry price."

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

I admit i Love my iPad MINI! Never touch my iPad 2 anymore.

musicman65

Elantric,

Ive found Win8 to be functionally identical to Win7-64...other than the WinRT stuff which can be completely ignored by installing ClassicMenu, a free utility which restores the traditional start menu. It has been rock solid. No reboots or crashes so far except for automatic updates. My tablet sleeps and wakes flawlessly for weeks at a time with constant use. I do use the IE10 browser in WinRT because Winx86 based browser don't pinch zoom and scale as well. Mostly I use the stylus and x86 apps unless I'm docked with a KB/mouse.

bd

polaris20

Quote from: musicman65 on March 13, 2013, 01:16:54 PM
WinRT apps run on both Win8 and WinRT. Win8 includes the WinRT environment. I know this as a Win8 user on a touch only tablet.

Regular apps can and are easily used by utilizing a pointing device (not a blunt finger!). A Wacom digitizer with pen is as accurate as a mouse and just as versatile in the right hands. There are even advantages when using graphics editing software since pressure is used to dynamically control brush strokes.

As I understand it, WinRT is a runtime virtual machine that is available running on top of Win8 or compiled to run on ARM based systems. It allows compatibility between both environments by providing a virtualization layer that is common regardless of the underlying hardware and OS. This is not that different from a Java runtime environment except there is a built in launcher app (the new tile menu) I'm sure my terminology doesn't line up with Microsoft's but that's basically how it works.

Samsung and MS had a predecessor to this on Win7 called Touch Launcher and apps that ran in a separate runtime environment. Technically, WinRT apps should be called Applets since that rely on a host app, WinRT, to run.

That's my understanding anyways. Its easy to see how this gets confusing for the consumer. They should have kept the name "Metro" for the run time VM.

Its not an iPad. Its a PC...a very versatile device, still in its infancy.

bd

Java is an apt comparison, but not a favorable one, since Java isn't very high performance compared to native code.

QuoteRegular apps can and are easily used by utilizing a pointing device (not a blunt finger!). A Wacom digitizer with pen is as accurate as a mouse and just as versatile in the right hands. There are even advantages when using graphics editing software since pressure is used to dynamically control brush strokes.

The merits of this are highly subjective. Some people like myself hate using stylus pointing devices. If that's the best option, I'll just use a laptop. The market has largely spoken as well, since Windows-based tablets have never really done well since their introduction. Maybe Windows 8 will change that, who knows. It's not so far though.

QuoteIts not an iPad. Its a PC...a very versatile device, still in its infancy.

The Windows RT platform (on ARM procs) are no more a PC than an iPad is, and I would argue even less so, because despite having Office the remaining capabilities and applications are horribly underwhelming. You're taking away the sole benefit of a Windows tablet (being able to run Windows x86 apps) and leaving a platform with very few quality apps.

polaris20

Quote from: musicman65 on March 13, 2013, 01:53:22 PM
Elantric,

Ive found Win8 to be functionally identical to Win7-64...other than the WinRT stuff which can be completely ignored by installing ClassicMenu, a free utility which restores the traditional start menu. It has been rock solid. No reboots or crashes so far except for automatic updates. My tablet sleeps and wakes flawlessly for weeks at a time with constant use. I do use the IE10 browser in WinRT because Winx86 based browser don't pinch zoom and scale as well. Mostly I use the stylus and x86 apps unless I'm docked with a KB/mouse.

bd

I agree, Windows 8 is fantastic on laptops and desktops, and once Start8 is installed, very usable. The additional features like storage pooling and file versioning are fantastic. I don't see a lot of reason to avoid it, since there are free or cheap solutions to fix Metro.

Elantric

#47
FWIW -  i mention using "Classic Shell" with Windows 8 here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6161.msg52345#msg52345


Depending on your point of view, Classic Shell either provides a bit of nostalgia, or delivers the crucial missing user interface Microsoft deleted in Windows 8 
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/



But many folks are not too interested in Windows 8
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adriankingsleyhughes/2013/03/14/why-windows-8-is-the-first-windows-release-i-absolutely-hate/?partner=yahootix

mbenigni

Quote from: gumtown on March 13, 2013, 01:46:41 PMFrom what i understand of WinRt it does not support midi..

I think this thread is kind of bouncing all over the place on account of our considering two different platforms - WinRT (e.g. Surface) vs. Win8 proper (e.g. Surface Pro).  It sounds like the stripped down RT-only OS will not support MIDI; whether that's down to the OS itself or the requirements/assumptions pertaining to the hardware that it's shipped with is unclear.  But Win8 certainly supports MIDI, and it's unclear whether the WinRT component running on top of Win8 proper could by extension support MIDI.  The latter point isn't terribly relevant anyway, since an x86 Win8 app with a comparably designed UI would be functionally equivalent.

Quote"By comparison, the $329 iPad Mini offers ... thousands of music apps and a significantly cheaper entry price."

Citing the price raises a dozen other questions about screen size, features etc. but I won't argue that the iPad Mini is a decent value if it's what you need.  As for the availability of apps, again, I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a brand new platform (RT/Metro) would have a library of apps on par with an OS that's been around for 5-ish years.  The iPad benefited by way of an existing iPhone install base and software library when it shipped, and Microsoft really doesn't have that infrastructure in place.  But I don't think that's an indictment of any of the technology in question.  The potential is there - as niche as Windows tablets may seem, Windows is all over the place.  The emergence of Metro applets seems like an inevitability to me.  Now whether or not any of those applets will be good... that's up for debate/speculation.  But in the meantime, I'm running x86 apps anyway.  So that brings me back to the first point, that there are really two different discussions to be had depending on whether we're talking about a Win8 device or a WinRT-only device.  And frankly, everyone I've ever talked to had written off the WinRT-only devices the day they were announced.  Their only hope of success, ironically, will come in a couple of years time, if and when the Metro app library has come into its own.

musicman65

Excellent comment. Time will tell.

Until then, I am very productive using x86 apps and a small but growing number number of RT apps on my Win8 tablet.

bd