Mel-9 in FX chains

Started by Rhcole, October 17, 2016, 02:22:20 PM

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Rhcole

As Bill R. himself commented, the Mel-9 was designed to be the first box in an FX chain. You could put a compressor, maybe a pitch-shifter, in front of it. Other boxes can mess up its pitch conversion and functioning.

The thing is, in practical setups that doesn't always work out.  A great example is a 13 pin into the GP-10 where there is no easy way to run the Mel-9 first without either a modified US-20 type expander like Elantric makes or modifying the GP-10 itself. I dislike complicated setups so ran the GP output right into it last night and let it fly.

I don't use much distortion, so that is a plus. But what is interesting is that the Mel-9 behaved itself pretty well, given it was being fed pitch-shifted ambient swells with guitar and Osc synth. It would burble a bit on echos, and most interestingly, selected which notes it wanted to reproduce without much glitching. It doesn't try to track high notes above a certain range, and if you feed it (for example) a guitar with reverb and modulation, if it can track it what you get out is the Mel-9 sound without the reverb and tonal shifts- but it does track vibratos and tremelos (as if the Mel-9 needs more vibrato!).

It really does behave kind of like a sample player that tracks pitch and amplitude, although it is not doing that per se. But it does ignore anything other than the guitar pitch if it can. It's not a very dynamic box, so notes below a certain volume just drop out.

This is both a limitation and a plus. It was kind of interesting to hear it blended in with Osc synth, guitar, and reverb/delays, tracking better than I expected and actually blending in pretty well. The reverb on the GP-10 doesn't come through the Mel-9 but if it isn't turned up too high your ear doesn't notice. I think it works well enough at the back end of my chain to leave it there instead of requiring more boxes and cables to put it in the front.

I like having a 12 string into a Tron type sound, takes me back to the Strawbs in their Ghosts and Hero and Heroine days.

carlb

#1
Hey Rob, you can use the Mel 9 within the GP-10's "effects loop." No reason to just have it after the GP-10. As long as you're not running stereo outs, and you're willing to work out details with L/R panning, you can put the Mel 9 in any number of GP-10 patches, and decide the order of where to put the Mel 9 in with the GP-10's effects:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18569.msg132276#msg132276

I find the fretless guitar model feeds the Key 9 really well. Smooths out the initial attack a bit which helps makes response more uniform, and provides the right "under-tones" for many of the EHX keyboards to make them sound more authentic. Then a bit of reverb after, if needed.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Rhcole

CarlB,

I read this posting recently... but I use my mag pickups all of the time blended in the GP-10!

carlb

The signal-flow diagram of the GP-10 could be incorrect, in your favor here. There have been one or two inconsistencies with it that I seem to recall. If I get a chance tonight, I'll see if the mag-pickups (via the 13-pin cable) can work as input for a GP-10 effects loop.

Regardless, if you can be OK with with using a modeled pickup for just your "EHX" patches, then you can mix the amount of modeled pickup with the EHX model at the wet and dry output knobs of the Mel 9. The mixed output goes back into the "GUITAR IN" as usual for the effects loop. Your other patches would work fine with the magnetic pickups being sourced from the 13-pin connector. Just be sure to put a left-pan before the output of your other patches, so there won't be a chance of runaway feedback from them.

I'll check it tonight but I think there's a workable solution, one way or another.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Elantric

#4
The methods i use for normal guitar Mag PU FX loop in front of GP-10 are:

* PrimovaSound GFX-21 (Mix OUT > external FX > GP-10 Guitar Input)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15681.0


* Modified US-20 (Guitar Out > external FX > GP-10 Guitar Input)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3664.0

Rhcole

Hmmm GFX21 does look pretty good... Wouldn't mind actually doing it right!

carlb

#6
FYI, the GP-10's 13-pin mag-pickup input really is disconnected when the GUITAR IN jack is plugged in. Tried it.

But the good news is modeled pickups are sent to the Mel 9 via the improvised effects loop. The Mel 9 can send any mix of "mello" and modeled pickup output back to the GP-10.

Although it's not quite the same as having your mag pickups in parallel with the Mel 9, it's pretty close. And it allows easily selection of Mel 9 patches along side of your other patches (which could use the mag pickups). This approach does keep hardware to a minimum.

When I was first working out adding the Key 9 to the GP-10, I used a Wayne Joness 13-pin filter-buffer. Much like the GFX-21 (but no knobs), it can split mag-pickups out of a 13-pin cable, and it also has effect loop jacks. Works great, but ... no "master control" of everything via the GP-10. And it was one more piece of hardware. Wasn't optimal for what I need, but that approach might be better for you.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Elantric

#7
QuoteFYI, the GP-10's 13-pin mag-pickup input really is disconnected when the GUITAR IN jack is plugged in. Tried it.

Same as VG-88 and VG-99

It's possible to "mod" the GP-10 guitar in / out jacks to become an FXLoop

Same as can already be done with VG-88

And VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=474.0




The concept is explained at link above ,

While it's possible to implement on GP-10, at this time the actual GP-10 FX Loop mod details are yet to be determined

carlb

#8
Cool! Allows for stereo out from the GP-10. No extra hardware, no messing around with panning right/left, either.

What I still like about the 'improvised effect loop' (aside from not having to modify the GP-10) is being able to use modeled instruments, alt tunings, etc., before the loop when needed. Also, I need to be able to use the loop within a given patch (and not in others), which the improvised loop allows.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Rhcole

I have Elantric's modded US-20. I am going to put the Mel-9 in front using that and see if I like it better. The US-20 setup is pretty fiddly with lots of cables and stuff but it is a fair test of the concept. Also, I already own it.

The Mel-9 reacts in a really interesting manner though to long reverb tails and echos. The brass voice with it's reverse envelope is also very intriguing at the tail end of a chain.
The synthesist in me that just likes unusual sounds finds this fascinating.

Rhcole

Well, I've experimented with this some more. On the GP-10, put the Mel-9 AFTER the GP-10. No whacky 13 pin cable tricks or weird loops in and out of the GP necessary.
Seriously. Feed it clean pitch shifts, including Wave and Osc synths, and you will be AMAZED at how well it tracks them and how good it sounds.
All you need to do is increase your reverb and echo levels so that the Mel-9 will mimic them somewhat and sound a bit less sterile. If you boost these, it sounds like the Mel-9 has reverb/echo on it, and it will actually track the delays to a limited extent.
I have run complex patches with regular guitar and heavily effected Poly and Synth voices, and the Mel-9 increased them exponentially. In a few cases, I wondered how it could possibly track what I was running through it, but it did.
THIS IS AN AMAZING BOX, BILL RUPPERT. When is the SYN-9 coming out?  ;)

Now, the critical issue is you will get in trouble with heavily dissonant intervals, and especially intervals that aren't clean to begin with. So, on the SY-300 you would absolutely have to run the Mel-9 first in the chain, because the SY tends to introduce too many digital artifacts into pitch shifts. You'd get digital hash out if you put the Mel-9 at the back end.
But on the GP-10, works great.
Somebody should try it with a VG-99!