String Dampers - Improves DSP Modeling, Alt Tuning, GTR-MIDI

Started by carlb, December 12, 2008, 06:05:13 AM

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gandolf

I thought i'd share something that really helped me remove alot of ghost-notes and mistriggering for PCM's from my playing.

i got the idea from a video that was posted on this forum....you might have seen the fella playing bass with the drummer and the DJ ?...it was very cool track! anyway, the bass player had bandanna wrapped around his guitar neck, at the about the 3rd fret.

So i found some rubber type foam material (it was actually from a USB stick display package). I'm not sure what this material is....it;s light as foam, but it feels and has density more like rubber, in that it doesn't have any of the "bubbles / sponge" look about it.

Anyway,  i've jammed it right up against the top nut. you can see from the photo, it's a tight fit, and it's almost pushing the strings out of their saddles. there was also some left over material, that i've then jammed in the headstock side of the nut.

i decided against trying to pad near the bridge(which more ussual) as i felt it made more sense to dampen nearer to the source of the mistriggering, and i also thought it would have less dampening on the tone...i don;t know how correct that is....

i also jammed up near the top nut, so i didn;t loose any notes on the neck.

It;s made a really big difference! i'd say i;m probably 95% to achieving  no misttriggering in my playing. i;m hoping the other 5% is just my "hard" playing, coming from upright bass habits....?

if you are still having problems with mistriggering,these are the steps i;ve taken so far that have helped me:
- adjust GK pickup setup
- adjust string sensitivities, etc.
- adjust velocity, nuance, play feel settings.
- make similar velocity/nuance settings per patch as required.
- "soften" you playing style.
-  add a dampener to your strings.

I imagine the dampener technique would probably make guitar's too "dead" ??...but for Bass, and if you use the COSM alot...it;s worth some loss of open string notes on the mag.

Has anyone else had similar experience with this?
or if anyone has any improvements would be great to hear!

cheers!

Elantric

Some older threads cover this same / similar concept.
Bottom line - its rather like Guitar school 101 - you need a well intonated instrument, and is in tune, and you need to minimize all noise emanating from the "non-speaking" string length. That means if you are playing a Bar chord "B" at the 7th fret - you want zero noise to occur from all the strings below the 7th fret.

There are several strategies which address this.
     
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6919.msg48230#msg48230
Palm muting helps bigtime!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also one can use the old 'sock over the nut' trick that a shredder friend of mine showed me.

Jennifer batten uses a nut mute that closes open strings that would probably help midi guitarists quite a bit.
http://www.powerpresskits.com/PPKs/indexC.aspx?PPK=758


Ms Batten's Damper is a variation on the Van Epps String Damper - which 1950's jazz guitarists often relied upon to dampen the unwanted strings.

http://line6.com/support/thread/73637

"Of course the strings ringing "behind the nut  - is another source of noise - or if you are Adrian Belew, its a source of a wider sonic pallete. Or if you are Jerry Donahue of the Hellicasters - that area above the nut is your "B Bender, G Bender, D Bender etc.



But many MIDI guitarists take a cue from the Chapman Stick/ Warr guitars and place dampening material on  the Strings up there by the Nut.


Gunder Keller (a popular Roland demonstrator) always uses an elastic scrunchy hair tie placed under the strings above the nut on the headstock - find them at Walmart."


Here is a homebrew Velcro Damper






Its an old concept for better recording of guitar - see Scotty Moore's page here:

--
http://www.scottymoore.net/dampers.html


   

String dampers

Scotty from "The Guitar That Changed The World"
Scotty and the 63 Super 400 CES with damper

Scotty's 63 Super 400 CES, like the guitars of  many jazz players of the 60's, featured a string damper which helped eliminate feedback   This style of string damper is from a design by the famous Jazz guitarist George Van Eps and used by other players of note like Herb Ellis.  The damper, mounted on a plate which replaced the original trussrod cover was designed to damp down unwanted open string overtones.  This helped achieve a better tonal balance between open and fretted notes, whilst reducing the electro-acoustic guitar's susceptibility to feedback. Van Eps dampers were available as a guitar accessory throughout the fifties although Gibson did market them for a short period, which linked them with the company name. 

Felt and sponge damping behind the bridge
damping behind the bridge through the years

Beginning with that guitar Scotty employed another means of damping also.  This involved the placement of a felt or sponge beneath the strings between the bridge and tailpiece.  He's used that method on all his guitars since and finds it also a handy place to store spare guitar picks.

Scotty's 63 headstock with Damper from "The Vault"
The damper on Scotty's 63 Super 400 (now missing parts)

In a search for information regarding Van Eps dampers and in an attempt to locate one I corresponded with several individuals, two of which, Pat Farrand and Mavin Dodge have been extremely informative.


A Van Eps Damper believed to have been made by George
photo courtesy Michael Neer

In the 1960's I worked at Valley Sound in Hollywood. While there, I did repairs for Herb Ellis and became acquainted with the Van Epps damper. Over the years I had occasion to repair Herb's damper, and became acquainted with George Van Epps who lived close by.  Several years ago Herb's damper fell apart and he sent it to me. I took it to George, but George said it was beyond repair. George had quite a collection of spare parts and dampers that he never finished, so he arranged to build one for Herb and send it to him. I offered to buy George's parts collection, but he did not want anyone else assembling his dampers. I have only one damper remaining and it is an "odd-ball" unit. George said it was one manufactured by the Gibson company as a prototype of one they wanted to put into production under a license he gave them in the late 50's. He cancelled Gibson's license after less than a year and never let them go into production.  George believed that less than 5 or 10 of these prototype units were ever produced (I did not know this history when I bought it 30 years ago).  I used this "Gibson damper" on a succession of guitars over the years, and it worked OK but is in fact ugly when compared to one of George's hand made units. There are so few of George's dampers around that George himself could not locate a working model for Herb. Herb thought that Barney Kessel had several, but when I contacted Barney he said he sold them along with the guitars they were mounted on. I wouldn't know where to even begin looking for an original Van Epps damper at this time.


Gibson style damper identical to Scotty's
courtesy Mavin Dodge

I had a lot of trouble over the years finding replacement felt for the damper.  The best I could do is use standard one inch piano felt (which is close to the right thickness), and then splitting it down to the 1/4 width.  I tried securing it with rubber bands and wire, and finally resorted to "pinching" the sides of the slot with pliers (that's why it looks a little rough in spots. In any case, it works fine in the down position with the felt against the strings.  By the way, this is the damper I loaned to Herb Ellis several years ago until George Van Epps could send him a replacement.

By the way, the trick of using piano felt between the bridge and the tail piece is common. A metal tail piece produces a harmonic "over-ring" that can be very disturbing to a sensitive ear. I used the same trick for many years. Now, I change all tailpieces to the wooden "cello" type secured by a threaded nylon strap around the end pin. This looks more natural and stops the metallic over-ring problem. By the way, the string dampers that Pat makes are real works of art, and dampen better than the Van Epps. George would have loved the workmanship. I'm sure he would have argued for a quick release "spring-and-ball" locking system (like his design), rather than the "pressure lever" Pat uses. I've learned to operate mine with one hand, but George's design allows the player flip the damper up (to expose the open strings) while on the fly. With Pat's damper the player must stop playing for a few seconds, or position it up before beginning a tune that requires open strings.

Mavin Dodge   April 5, 2003


String dampers designed and sold by Pat Farrand** (click photos to enlarge)

I custom build string dampers. Mine are all brass and sit in place of the truss rod cover. Mine differs from the Van Eps in that it has a much lower profile so there is no interference to the fretting hand. They are very adjustable for amount of damping required and don't 'choke' the natural sound. If you are only interested in the Van Eps, they can be found. Some of my customers own one but they usually like to keep them as a piece of history. Gibson also produced one for a short time in the mid sixties under license from George Van Eps.  Still, there are relatively few in existence.

The Damper shown on Scotty's Super 400 appears to be a Gibson made, George Van Eps licensed model. It wasn't easily adjustable and was rather large. George used aircraft aluminum to build the mechanism and the Damper itself was slotted and used a piano 'felt' insert that contacted the strings. I have seen, and customers of mine have described, a number of variations made by Van Eps. Mavin Dodge in California has one. He told me he saw Herb Ellis' disassemble on stage one night.

Pat Farrand  March 24, 2003

** Pat Farrand or his dampers are not affiliated with Scotty Moore or his website but was kind enough to provide info and pictures about them to be used here.  If any readers are interested in one of his custom built dampers please contact him directly by email at "pfarrand @ sherbtel.net", by phone at (763) 263 6910 or send a self addressed stamped envelope to him at: 16324 171st Ave. S.E., Big Lake, MN 55309  USA


gandolf

That's great elantic!

i probably should have tied onto this thread...i think i remember seeing(?), but probably dismissed it as a "guitar thing"...!

I guess i better pretty mine up !!

anyway,  i'm not sure this technique gets enough mention when we discuss ghost-notes on the forum (and it;s one of those common hurdles to the GR system)?

it's made a big difference to me anyway...

aliensporebomb

I've got velcro strips that came in a package that was supposed to let you velcro audio wiring together neatly.  The size and shape are perfect for creating an easily removable string damper for electric guitar.  Pics forthcoming.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Galvonot

I put foam at both the neck and bridge of my Godin LGX-sa a couple of months ago and it made a huge difference. I was able to use it for my GR-55 again, after having put it away a few months after I got the synth.

Elantric

Although this video describes adding String Dampers to a Line-6 Tyler Variax - the identical concepts also directly apply to guitars used with Roland COSM Alt Tuned Modeling devices ( VG-99, GR-55)   

Adding string dampers to the "non speaking" string length past the Nut and the Bridge saddles WILL help tame the warbles that occur when you engage DSP Alt Tunings. 


http://line6.com/support/message/485558#485558



Elantric

http://line6.com/support/topic/2190-the-jtv-hd-20-experienceordeal/

johnnyayyy wrote>

Quote
    After some noodling around I discovered what was causing the KLUNK/KLACKing noises, the Piezos do not fit snugly into the slots on the bridge and when they move from side to side they strike the side of the slot causing a big KLACK!. I will be shoving something in there to hold them in place (already tried but haven't found anything small enough to fit into the space, the point of a toothpick is just barely too thick, a staple is too thick...

Adding string dampers to the "non speaking" string length past the Nut and the Bridge saddles WILL help tame the warbles that occur when you engage DSP Alt Tunings.

http://line6.com/support/message/485558#485558





Toby Krebs

If the top of any of the frets on your guitar has any and I mean any flat areas without a nice high crown you better get a book and some files from Stew-Mac and keep your frets nice and high and crowned. Muting is critical too but fret condition IMHO is the most important thing. I have been refretting mine and others instruments for 30 years so for me the investment in tools and gaining the skills has paid for itself many times over especially for synth guitar purposes. If you cant at least keep them crowned and polished yourself find someone who can. Eliminates a lot of this "ghostly" business.

whippinpost91850

Have to agree with Tony here, a pitted fret will definitly give you had to control false triggering.

HoosierMan

As usual with everything on vguitar forums there is so much good information here.  I took some bass lessons from Carol Kaye, and of course she came out of the 50's jazz scene, and one of the 1st things she recommends is string muting.  She advocates muting by the bridge (of course she wasn't concerned with midi guitar) and she either uses some felt taped over the strings for playing with a pick or foam rubber under the strings in front of the bridge for finger style playing.

Tek

I used a slice off an old mouse pad to dampen the strings at the nut. Works great. A lot less mistriggering.  ;D



After further use: Really helps with PCM and high gain sounds, like horns and pianos (and the GR-300). Obviously, not so good for acoustic and quieter guitar sounds...

mapperboy

Works with a GK or Piezo equipped bass instrument as well.  As you bass players probably know the very original vintage P-Bass can equipped Fender Bridge cover had a sponge rubber damper built in.  I think Carol Kaye also used one of these in her "Wrecking Crew" days.
Sometimes I do want that very interesting crazy triggering that can be gotten with light tapping and harmonic plucks and a dampener tends to kill those as it's supposed to.  Worth trying to master both.
-GR me up Scottie

"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

mapperboy

Yes indeed that's the original (well maybe not Leo's own but..the one actual humans could get).
Thanks for adding the photo Elantric!
"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

Elantric

I once worked on Carol Kaye's old bass while at Valley Arts.

A humbling experience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Kaye

Headless68

You all need to think outside the box guys, here was my solution  ........
;D

Alec Lee

I used to use hair ties on my guitars but find fretwraps to be more convenient.

http://www.gruvgear.com/fretwraps


aliensporebomb

I'd have to mail order it - I've never seen fretwraps at any store here locally and in Minnesota "Land of 10,000 Alternative Rock Bands" the whole idea that someone is using those to do high technique tapping or guitar-to-midi would get you stared at something fierce by 10,000 hipsters.

That being said I used this:


It's a little elastic band used for ponytails.  It was a buck at target for 50 or so and put them on all my guitars.  They are a bit of a tight fit but takes care of the problem.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mbenigni

I recognize Fred Brum in that photo above - monster player!

aliensporebomb

I've taken the hair scrunchie route although it seems more like a cloth rubber band than a scrunchie.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

MusicOverGear

+1 for FretWraps. I got some for bass when I got a wild hair to do Stanley Jordan (/Victor Wooten) type two-handed tapping, but have used them since on all instruments for tracking parts with muting issues. When not used that way it is up over the nut, damping the strings on that side.

The only irritating thing about them is that you can't pick colors - you just get what they send you. Some of them are e.g. bright orange. WTF?! If you don't care about looks they are great.

Elantric

Sonuus Buzznut String Dampener
http://www.sonuus.com/products_accessories.html


Buznut - the Ultimate Guitar String Dampener

Buznut Ultimate Strip V2
Buznut string dampners are clever little strips that you slide onto your guitar, under the strings, and they dampen open strings, preventing accidental or excess string ringing. This results in a cleaner sound from your guitar and are really useful whether you're a high-gain shredder, or a MIDI guitar enthusiast. Musicians of all levels have improvised in the past with elastic hairbands to dampen their strings. Buznuts do a much better job!

They are perfect for playing MIDI guitar with Sonuus MIDI converters.
Patent Pending



The Buznut Ultimate String Dampener (Patent Pending) was invented as a solution to those expensive, complicated, bulky and obtrusive dampening devises, which conceptually were ideal but in practicality did not appeal to a lot of Guitarists who just did not want to use them for fear of modifications and possible damage to their Guitars.

The Buznut string dampner does not require you to make any alteration to your guitar. You simply slide the strip under your strings. Once it is in position you dampen your strings by positioning the dampening bumps in the strip under your strings. While the strip is in position under your strings you can turn off the dampening by sliding the strip a tiny amount so that the dampening bumps on the strip now align with the gaps between your guitar strings. It really is that simple!



Sizes
There are two different sizes available. The Standard Strip (is defined with a 'S' on the back of the strip) will fit most Guitars with low to average action. The Custom Strip (with a 'C' on the back of the strip) will work best with Guitars with very low action.

Each pack contains two String Dampner Strips, either two Standard, two Custom or one of each.





HoosierMan

Some nice foam came inside the new iPhone 6 belt clip box that I decided to buy after I cracked the display glass on my phone from having it in my pocket!  By the way, the Verizon "Total Equipment Coverage' was NO help.  I found out there is a $199 deductible to have them send me a refurbished, not guaranteed to be exact phone, plus they were out of stock anyway and it is not Verizon handling it but a third party.  I suppose if my phone was damaged beyond repair or if it was stolen the $199 is better than shelling out full price for another iPhone.  But, I discovered Apple repairs damaged displays in the Apple store while you wait for $109 and I got to go have a nice dinner with my wife while I was waiting and I got my original phone back an hour later.

Anyway, the foam from the belt clip package worked out nicely to use to dampen overtones to reduce mis-triggering on those fussy PCM tones that I have trouble with especially piano and vibes.



and


Machh_2

Hi all...
along time without come here....job problems...
but im back...
guys, this thing is really works for eliminate ghost notes ?
http://www.teslapickups.com/?products=vibration-damper

hugs

Machh

whippinpost91850


admin

http://www.mwbmusic.com/ultramute/ultramute/


On June 28, 1988 Michael Wahl Berardi was granted a United States patent for a stringed instrument mute, the UltraMute. The invention provides control of extraneous string noise, harmonic over-ring, acoustic-electronic feedback and sympathetic string vibrations for stringed instruments without altering the fundamental tones of the strings. The UltraMute is an excellent mute for guitar and bass and is easily applied without modifications. The UltraMute is self adjusting. The mute can be slid along the neck with one hand while playing without removing the mute from the guitar. The UltraMute also helps improve tracking on pitch to voltage guitar synthesizers, stringed MIDI Guitars. The invention works well on both acoustic and electric guitars. The UltraMute can also be used on mandolins, banjos, ukuleles and other stringed instruments such as basses, violins, violas, cellos and the like.

If it's Stringed - use ULTRAMUTE!



http://www.mwbmusic.com/about/history/

Michael Wahl Berardi has taken the two-hand tapping style to new levels incorporating both hands and all fingers into playing like an orchestra and beyond. With the use of guitar synthesizers and rack keyboard gear Michael's sound and style are truly exceptional. The development of this technique did not happen overnight but over many years. In fact, Michael has been doing this since the 1970's. The SynthAxe video on YouTube is evidence of his amazing technique! Michael created the idea of 'neck-zoning' and 'movable split-points' for the SynthAxe in which the builders incorporated into the instrument in the 1980's. The concept bears his name. Around the same time, Michael invented and received a U.S. Patent for the UltraMute, a dampening device used on the end of a guitar neck. You can get more specs as well as ordering info under the products tab on the UltraMute page.
http://www.mwbmusic.com/ultramute/ultramute/
While composing and recording new music, Michael is currently working on The Grand Guitar Grid System, a comprehensive method for guitar study. Over the years Michael has composed many musical works with many musicians. His style allows him to work in all genres of music from Jazz & Swing, Blues & Rock to Funk & Fusion, New Age & Classical. One mainstay musician for the last 20 years has been drummer David Mark Baker. Tappin Music Ltd. was founded by Michael and David in 2002. David is also working on a drumming study book entitled The Matrix of Primary Patterns, a comprehensive manual for drummers and percussionists.


http://www.mwbmusic.com/videos/jam-sessions/