VG-8 - Low Output with GK-3 ?

Started by stevemp, December 04, 2013, 04:35:04 AM

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stevemp

I have a GR-1 and a VG-8EX.  I also have a GK-2A and a GK-3.

I installed the GK-3 on my Ibanez using the Gibson LP bracket.  The spacing is set perfectly according to the feeler gauge tool supplied.

It works fine with my GR-1 but it seems like the output is too low for the VG-8.  I set the string sensitivity to the max for all strings and it's still not enough.

I swapped in the GK-2A and it works fine for both.

Is there something wrong with my GK-3?

Thanks,
Steve

Elantric

#1
The VG-8 is from 1995

The GK-3 arrived on the scene in 2004

It has a different output level compared to GK-2, GK-2A



QuoteQ.Are the GK-2, GK-2A, and GK-3 pickups compatible with all GR-series guitar synthesizers equipped with a 13-pin GK pickup connector?

    A.Yes, they are all compatible. However, there are slight differences in the output voltage produced by the GK-2, GK-2A, and GK-3 pickups, which can affect the playing feel of the guitar synthesizer system. For this reason, you should adjust the input sensitivity setting on the GR-series unit specifically for each GK pickup model.
The best you can do when using a GK-3 with a VG-8, is set GK-3 height no further than 1mm distance from the strings and set the VG-8's "GK Type" to the GK-2A setting and increase the GK String Sensitivity to the desired range and save it to one of the  GK Type user memory slots as "GK-3" on your  VG-8

stevemp

#2
Pardon me for resurrecting this thread.

Here I am a couple of years down the road and I forgot about this.  I mounted the GK-3 on my Parker PM-20 Pro and re-discovered the issue.

I tried everything and the GK-3 is unusable with the VG-8.  Is this the experience of others?

I find it hard to believe that the "slight differences" in output voltage could render it useless with the VG-8 but if that's the case I have to accept it.

Does the GK-3 work with the VG-88?

Thanks,
Steve

admin

#3
When using a GK-3 with VG-8, I just use the GK-2A setting and adjust GK string sensitivity for 80% deflection on hard strum peaks  - to leave some margin for headroom

QuoteI tried everything and the GK-3 is unusable with the VG-8.

We always talk about the importance of getting the Gk hex PU height to sit no further than a 1mm gap between strings and PU - but its also important to install the GK PU at least 15mm away form the strings - mounting the any GK Magnetic hex PU too close to the bridge yields very weak signal output

read
Can GK-3 PU be too close to the bridge??
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13322.0


stevemp

#4
Thanks for the reply.

The pickup is definitely close enough to the strings as I used the spacer included to measure although the curvature cannot be reduced enough to provide equal spacing on all strings.  I believe the fret board radius is 13" on my Parker PM-20 Pro.

It uses a tuneomatic style TonePros bridge and I am using the bracket provided with the GK-3.  So the spacing should be optimal, no?

I'm still thinking that there must be a problem with the pickup.  Maybe the 13-pin plug is badly oxidized?

admin

#5
Post a pic of your Gk-3 install?
If the GK PU is set closer than 10mm - it will be sensing a smaller / shorter excursion of any vibrating string, with resulting drop in  the output level of the GK PU .
Be sure the GK-3 PU is NOT too close to the bridge  - this is bad


Follow the GK-3 installation guide




Be sure you are measuring "GK PU Distance"  from Center of GK PU to the point where the string leaves the Bridge Saddle / or center of Kahler Roller.

For a GK-3 on a Guitar, I would be sure its at least 10mm away. 20mm is probably Optimal.

If the GK PU is set closer than 10mm - it will be sensing a smaller / shorter excursion of any vibrating string, with resulting drop in  the AC voltage signal output level of the GK PU .


You can compensate by boosting the "GK Sensitivity" to a higher number - but this results in higher susceptibility to hiss and noise when using DSP COSM Guitar Modeling, with a likely requirement to enable the "COSM N.S. ( Noise Suppressor Gate) to tame the hiss  - but know there will be a resulting loss of picking dynamic range response.


If the GK PU is set too far away from the bridge saddle ( more than  30mm) - it will be sensing a higher / larger excursion of any vibrating string, with higher susceptibility of adjacent string cross-talk anytime you bend strings during Rock/Blues solos - and that creates poor tracking / ghost notes.


stevemp

#6
OK I will put it back on and measure again.  I did measure when I first installed it but I forget what the distances were.

As I said I am using the bracket supplied with the GK-3 to "mount" it on the bridge posts of the tune-o-matic style bridge.

stevemp

#7
The distance between the bridge saddle and the center of the GK-3 is 12mm.

I attempted to clean the connector by spraying some 99% alcohol into it and plugging the 13 pin in and out and it seems to have helped.

I ran through every patch including the card I have and I played with all the parameters in a patch (pickups, amp, speakers, pedals, etc.) and I think I just don't like this thing.

I find the bottom end muddy or flubby feeling.  I can't get a sound with a tight bottom end.  And the top end seems over the top, piercing.  It just doesn't represent amps properly.

Now some of the more plain guitar patches sound pretty good, like the ES hollow body sounds and some of the Fenders.  It seems they got the guitar modelling pretty good.

I am running through a PA power amp and a nice old pair of Cerwin Vega SM-15B monitors.  I can run my Boss GX-700 through the same setup and it sounds good.

So is the VG-99 leaps and bounds above the VG-8 or just kind of an improvement, not counting the dual engines and some of the unique features.  Is the amp modelling much much better?

Thanks for your help guys.  I think I will either sell the VG-8 or keep it to use with the acoustic for when I need an electric sound....if that ever happens.  ;-)

Elantric

#8
There are many opinons here - -but for myself the only reason to own a VG-8 is for the tones which are exclusive to the VG-8 -  the VIO Guitar and HRM Synth, and possibly for the autotune function

But typical working club band electric guitar tones on VG-8 today are a bit dated and lack the headroom / dynamic range compared to a  VG-99, GP-10, or  Atomic Amplifire, AXE-FX,   

stevemp

Thanks

I look forward to an opportunity to check out the VG-99 and the GP-10 at some point.  My budget is extremely limited these days so I'll have to see what the future holds.

On the other hand I have always liked my GR-1, for which I have the expansion.  I'll be keeping that for sure.


stevemp

OK I am getting things sorted out or into a better state.

I modified the curve on the GK-3 and now I can get all strings ringing at equal volumes.

Now I'm trying to find out what the optimal setting is for the string sensitivity.  I searched but can't find anything on it.

I had the levels as high as possible before.  I thought I saw something saying to start around 30 but that may have been for the VG-99.

I'm wondering if the string levels have any effect on driving the virtual amps as real pickups do.  Like if I have the levels low will it not drive the amp model hard enough.

Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

admin

#11
QuoteNow I'm trying to find out what the optimal setting is for the string sensitivity.  I searched but can't find anything on it.

Read VG-8 Owners manual page 19
http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VG-8EX_OM.pdf
l
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13079.msg95468#msg95468
Pluck each string your hardest , and adjust each string's Input Sensitivity for 80-90% VU meter deflection on the VG-8 LCD display


stevemp

Thanks

After I asked I thought, "Why not RTFM?" so I did.  lol

I found the procedure there.  Sorry for asking.

Thanks again for all the help.  I may just make thing thing useful to me.  ;-)

admin

The trick is create separate range String Input Sensitivity profiles - and experiment. some Lead / Solo patches might sound better with a higher String Input Sensitivity.

While other patches respond better with a lower sensitivity where more touch response is required for volume dynamics when fingerpicking 

chrish

The vg8 is worth keeping. While it may sound alittle thin, i always run mine in paraell with my analog guitar signal to fatten it up a bit. They don't fetch much money on the used market and because of the box design, will not reflect radar signals. :-)