TRAYNOR K4 STEREO AMP

Started by germanicus, April 29, 2008, 02:06:22 AM

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mbenigni

#25
Playing the K4 for the first time in a few weeks, and I think I'm hearing the same thing jkstraw complained about.  There's a "wax paper" (that's how it sounds to me anyway) buzz coming off one, or perhaps both, of the speaker cones - not all the time, but often.  It seems like certain frequencies call it out, for instance many of the high gain amp models in the GR55 get it pretty badly.  It's not coming from the source - I hear none of this in my other monitors.  I get the sense that the tweeters in the K4 just aren't of a very high quality.  Maybe jkstraw and I got duds, who knows.  I was kind of in denial when I first got the amp because, frankly, I didn't want to ship it back.  But now I find I'm spending a lot of time trying to dance around this problem, playing with input levels and gain and EQ, and really the problem is not going away.

It's weird, certain timbres sound fine at just about any volume, others exhibit this annoying buzz/hiss/rattle.  Mid and hi gain amps seem most susceptible.

cynegetic

Maybe the K in K4 stands for kazoo and not keyboard? ;D

mbenigni

That's pretty apt. :)

I know bitching about this amp is not very strategic since I may be trying to sell it soon, but I've gotta call it like I hear it.

I know a lot of guys with good ears swear by this amp.  Perhaps not all K4's are created equal?  If it's a matter of QC, I'd have to hesitate before buying another Traynor product.

germanicus

Fortunately, I Havent had any such issues with my k4, and ive really beaten the hell out of it.

Its taken a few tumbles off a handcart onto cement, and ive pushed it pretty hard to play over some particularly loud drummers wihtout the benefit of a PA system.

It does have a certain 'character' to the sound (most FRFR/keyboard amps do), but its extremely clear at loud volumes and works fantastically with acoustic guitar emulations.

My HD500 patches sound slightly different through the k4 than when playing direct into my home studio through some Event 20/20's. Im not getting any additional distortion or excessive midrange though as Mbenigni reports.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

Elantric

#29
mbenigni

Which channel on the K4 are you using?

If you are hearing a buzz or speaker rattle - try removing then reinstalling the front metal speaker grill.

Or check that the HF Horn driver voice coils are not rubbing in the magnet structure

Read

Foster / Fostex HF Driver repair (Traynor K4)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9493.msg68334#msg68334


mbenigni

Quote from: Elantric on September 22, 2011, 09:56:43 PM
Which channel on the K4 are you using?

I've tried them all, with and without tube, with all of the EQ characteristic presets, with all varieties of EQ settings, gain levels, GR55 output level, patch levels, and on and on.  I've really tried to find a reliable way around it, but it just doesn't like certain signals.  It's weird.  In a band mix, it still sounds great - close enough for rock & roll - but when I'm programming tones it really sets my teeth on edge.

Quote
If you are hearing a buzz or speaker rattle - try removing then reinstalling the front metal speaker grill.

I actually started into that and then got nervous that I might make matters worse.  :)  It doesn't sound like grill rattle - more like a bad speaker cone - but I guess I've got nothing to lose at this point.  I'll give it a shot and let you know how it turns out.

Thanks guys.

Elantric

http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/servman/smk4.pdf
Review the K4 Service manual with specific procedure to tame rattles. They advise to be sure the top chassis to cab screws are not overtighted.


January 29, 2009
The K4 is a powerful 300-Watt compact and light-weight combo
amplifier for keyboards. The product houses 5 drivers in it's speak-
er section and a chassis that has 3 amplifiers, a set of tubes, 2
fans (with heat sinks) and 6 circuit boards. All of these compo-
nents potentially rattle and/or buzz at various frequencies. Yorkville
uses a specific method to help prevent the sound energy from
being transferred from to the speaker compartment to the chassis.
Yorkville has taken great care by using dampening foam inside
to help reduce a great deal of rattling. Special foam and rubber
washers are also used for mounting the chassis to the cabinet. 
The top 5 chassis mounting bolts are not fully tightened, this helps
prevent the transference of the sound energy to the chassis from
the speakers.
Over tightening the top 5 bolts may result in rattle and buzz!
If chassis is removed and replaced, we recommend using a
Phillips head screw driver and tighten each bolt so that the top of
the head is just above the surface of the cabinet. To test if the
mounting is done correctly, apply a little force to the front and then
the back of the chassis if it moves too much,  retighten the bolts
and redo the test again. 

mbenigni

#32
That's great information, thanks Elantric!  I never even took my K4 manual out of the shrink wrap because I'd briefly considered returning it... and I eventually forgot I even had a manual.   :)  (Edit:  And now I see this is a different document, anyway.)

I did notice that the amp chassis was very loose in the cabinet, tending to slide around if I tilted from the normal position to the wedge monitor position.  Maybe it's too loose, whereas the manual warns against over-tightening.

Haven't found much time lately to pretend to be a guitarist, but this is at the top of my to-do list.

mbenigni

#33
 :-\  So last night I took the front grill off, and experimented with the tension on the chassis screws quite a bit.  Sadly, no improvement.

This isn't really much of a surprise; as I said, it never really sounded like a rattle in the first place.  It just sounds like cheap speakers, and unfortunately I can't isolate it to a single defective speaker.  I think I just don't like the sound of the speakers they chose in general.

I don't consider myself much of a "cork-sniffer" when it comes to speakers, and I know a lot of people with good ears think very highly of their K4's.  I wonder if Traynor has begun substituting cheaper speakers in order to reduce cost.  That's the only way I can explain what I'm hearing here; I don't really think it's all that subtle.

Still a very practical amp in a lot of ways.  It'll do the job until I find a better replacement.  I have a feeling I'll wind up giving up stereo in favor of a higher quality mono monitor, e.g. SRM450 or similar.  (I'm really tempted by the Atomic Reactor FR Wedge, but after this experience, I'm pretty much done with buying speakers I can't hear in person first.)

Elantric

#34
What are you using for the final output setting on the GR-55/VG-99?

I always use "Line /Phones" Output Mode  - when feeding fullrange amps with HF horns .

Other Output Modes sound like crap.

mbenigni

#35
Quote from: Elantric on October 18, 2011, 09:55:31 AM
What are you using for the final output setting on the GR-55?

I use Line /  headphones.

I'm using the same (Line/Headphones.)  It's not really a tonal/EQ concern as you'd experience with the wrong output setting, it's more like an additional layer of noise/distortion.  But not like preamp gain distortion - it's a timbre that I associate with cheap speaker cone paper.  I suppose it could even be a poorly tuned or defective crossover spamming some of the drivers with inappropriate frequencies.

Either way, it's a subtle problem.  Probably too subtle for an MP3 to call it out - otherwise I'd try to post recordings.

Elantric

Post a pic of your Traynor K4's Channel and EQ settings?

Are you engaging the K4's Tube Lead drive?

mbenigni

#37
Quote from: Elantric on October 18, 2011, 10:26:23 AM
Post a pic of your Traynor K4's Channel and EQ settings?

Are you engaging the K4's Tube Lead drive?

I've tried just about every variation conceivable; pretty certain it's not coming from the preamp, but rather the speakers.  Though I've been wrong before.

In general, I do not use the Tube Lead Drive, I keep the Gain down around 9 or 10 o'clock (though I've tried it all over the place) and I keep the EQ pretty flat (i.e. 12 o'clock across all bands, but again, have experimented.) 

I've found I prefer the preset position "4" because it scoops out some mids and hypes the highs in a way that brings some character out of the GR55 tones.  (The K4 is a little mid-heavy otherwise, which I hadn't expected from a keyboard amp.)  But I've tried all of these as well.

The next step would be to run the K4 head into a pair of good, passive speakers and see whether I like what I hear.  (I suspect the problem would go away.)  But, alas, I don't have a pair of good, passive speakers on hand.  (The triamp architecture might complicate that effort anyway.)

Elantric

#38
Read independent reviews:

http://www.thestompbox.net/forum/showthread.php?5242-Traynor-K4-keyboard-amp


http://psg.com/~dlamkins/lamkins-guitar/music/article/k4-vs-stagepas300

Note this :
One more thing... If you Google the K4 you'll find some threads about how Yorkville/Traynor once (during early production) packaged these units inadequately for shipping, resulting in units that were frequently damaged upon arrival. This is no longer a problem. I special-ordered my K4 last week. It arrived at the dealer yesterday in an oversized box with foam and carboard inserts to properly support the amp.

Its possible at some point your K4 got dropped, and thus the speaker cones became misaligned and are scraping the voice coil, creating distortion. It can happen.

Was your amp new or used?
Either way , I'd Contact YorkVille asap and explain the situation.

mbenigni

Quote from: Elantric on October 18, 2011, 10:55:18 AM
Its possible at some point your K4 got dropped, and thus the speaker cones became misaligned and are scraping the voice coil, creating distortion. It can happen.

Was your amp new or used?
Either way , I'd Contact YorkVille asap and explain the situation.

Thanks.  I'd actually read those reviews before purchasing.  I bought the amp brand new.  There was a "B-stock" demo unit available at the time but I figured I'd play it safe and buy the new one.  (That had the unexpected effect of slowing down delivery by a couple of weeks, since it had to get drop-shipped from Canada instead of NYC.)  It arrived without any signs of damage, and cosmetically it's flawless.

I'm not sure what I'm hearing is severe enough to be a misaligned speaker cone, but I guess it's possible.  I have a sinking feeling that if I get into this w/ Traynor, it will turn into one of those processes where we ship the amp back and forth a few times, with it arriving each time sounding pretty much identical to the last (and me trying to convince myself there's some improvement).  It's such a drag that there are none local for me to A/B against.

Thanks for the advice, though.  I'll try to email their support staff and see if they have any recommendations.

mbenigni

Interesting thread here:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2328081/Traynor_K4_problems_What_to_do

I found it by Googling "Traynor K4 Sounds Terrible" though that is a bit of an overstatement LOL.

Probably not quite the same problem as these guys are all talking about K4's that are 2-4 years old, and they indicate the problems only occur at high volumes.  My complaint is apparent at even very low volumes, and if anything is masked somewhat when I play louder.

The last post about spraying the speaker connections w/ electrical cleaner is interesting, but I'm in no hurry to tear this amp apart any further, and I can't imagine why this would be necessary given that it's only a couple of months old.

mbenigni

I just sent Traynor USA Support a detailed email.  I don't know what they can do, realistically, but it will be interesting to see how they respond.

Meanwhile, amidst all the glowing reviews, I did find one voice of dissent describing a lot of what I hear w/ the K4, although this person does not specifically cite distortion:

"This review is for the Traynor K4 keyboard amp. I wanted something that was a step up from my Roland KC-350. Unfortunately, this had problems of its own. I tested it using a Nord Electro 3. The bad... Despite all the reviews that said this is a quiet amp, I could hear a quiet hum from the speakers, even with everything at 0 volume. The stereo effect is VERY minimal, I don't even know why they bothered adding the cost of separate amps / drivers. The amp does not have flat response, not even close. I compared it straight with my Dynaudio BM6a studio monitors (very nice). It is very hyped in the mid range, giving snares / pianos / guitars a very unnatural quality. It can sound good, sure, but not like I would anticipate. I could manage to get a studio monitor-like response from it (voicing 4, bass / mid /  treble tweaks) but that really doesn't help in a live situation because the EQ is applied BEFORE the line out. This is unacceptable if you plan to use it as a stage monitor only, unless you want your sound man to hype your EQ because you've dehyped it so that your stage monitor sounded ok. But the worst part is that pianos sound shrill and boxy no matter how much EQ I applied, which is quite a shame for a 'keyboard' amp. I used Nord's Grand Lady D which I think is a very nice patch. Electric pianos sounded ok though. Now the good... I love the silver finish and the fact it can be on its side, back, or bottom. It's not too heavy for me and I can fit it in the trunk of my 2 door coupe. The handles are awesome. It can get LOUD. I pumped up the volume and couldn't get it to start distorting before it hurt my ears. Musician's friend matched another competitors price and their return policy is generous. All in all a shame really, because I really WANT to like it, it just didn't come through."

mbenigni

Never got any kind of reply from Traynor.  Can't say I'm surprised, and in their defense, exactly how much can they do with "I don't like the sound of the speakers"?  At this point I just have to take it that it is what it is, an amp with a signficant amount of speaker distortion. 

I wish I could say that Traynor had taken a little more pride in their product, or at least enough interest in a customer to return an email.  I can't foresee myself buying another one of their products.

mbenigni

I saw mention of K4 distortion in another thread and it got me thinking that the email I sent to Traynor might be of some interest:

Hello,

I'm writing because I have an ongoing concern about a Traynor K4, which I purchased new earlier this year.  Very briefly, I'm hearing distortion that I don't believe is part of the source material.  The same sounds (in this case the output from a Roland GR-55) run into other powered monitors do not produce this distortion. (The K4 is also a bit noisy, i.e. background hiss, at 0 volume but this may be inherent to the design, and is a much lesser concern.)

I've experimented extensively with all channels of the K4 preamp, with various Gain and EQ settings.  I've experimented with the Output level of the GR55 to ensure I'm not overloading the preamp input.  And I've run through all the recommendations concerning isolation of vibrations (with both the speaker grill and chassis mounting screws.) 

At this point I'm convinced that the problem is not a mechanical vibration, nor a matter of preamp distortion, but simply a matter of the speakers not sounding very good.  What's troubling is that the K4 in general has a sterling reputation, and other users assure me I should not be hearing this distortion.  One K4 user suggested that the amp might have been dropped in shipping (though there is no cosmetic damage indicating this occured) causing speaker cone misalignment.  I should say, however, that the distortion in question is fairly subtle.

I don't really know what to do at this point other than sell the amp and look for an alternative.  In all honesty, I wish I'd returned as soon as it arrived, but I was still "trying" to like the sound.

I'm writing from Connecticut, USA, and I'd rather not get into shipping the amp back and forth for what might be a subjective problem.  What are your recommendations?  Are there any local dealers or service centers where I might be able to A/B against another K4, or get a qualified opinion as to the nature of the problem?

However this works out, I thought I should at least bring this to your attention for whatever it's worth from a QC perspective.

Thank you for any feedback you can provide.

atonal

#44
Hi in need of some input on the traynor K4.Currently using a vintage jc 120 for gr55 and gr300 with the guitar output going into various tube amps.My questions are does anybody used the xlr for vocals and how does it sound using as an acoustic guitar amp??I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone portable acoustic guitar /pa,for my solo gigs and to power my guitar synths..Also looking at a used K4 that I'm told is approx. 4yrs old what issues should i look for as I've seen some post's about odd noises ect. thanks everyone for your time..also would I be better off checking out the alto powered speakers?

mbenigni

This weekend I set up a Yamaha HS80 next to my K4 and hooked both up in mono via an A/B switch.  What a difference; it's impossible to overstate the importance of a good monitor.  It was amazing how much easier everything is with the HS80's - the guitar felt more responsive, the tones more convincing, and the GR55 itself is actually easier to program, because I can identify the character of the amp models and start from the best base tone, rather than picking arbitrarily between models that sound identical on the K4, and then fighting with a tone stack that doesn't seem to cooperate.

There are some tones that sound good on the K4, but you have to work really hard to match "compatible" content with the amp; it's like a wrestling match.  Whereas w/ the HS80, everything works or can be made to work. 

That said, it's possible that I can use this A/B setup to "learn" the K4 and grow to like it.  Jury is still out.  Either way, it's more finicky than it needs to be.  The cabinet is voiced oddly IMO, and (this is no matter of opinion) the input preamps have very little headroom such that managing distortion is a constant chore.

musicman65

Good idea on the A/B switch and another amp. That definetely will let you hear what needs to be fixed. I would suggest an additional step of using studio headphones to tweak your tones, then get your A and B amps adjusted to sound as close to the headphones as possible. If you can borrow a 10-band or better EQ and run it ahead of the K4, you may be able to "normalize" it by removing the offending resonant frequencies and boosting the deficient ones. A good rule of thumb: If quality prerecorded full-range music (not hyper-bass Dr. Dre...LOL!) sounds good through your amp, so will a modelling pedal.

If you monitor with the K4 and run PA direct for the overall sound to the Font Of House mix, you may be able to get the K4 "good enough" for your ears. The issue I see a lot of us who run PA Direct having is in tweaking our tones for our monitor which may then yield an unbalanced tone in the mains. Using headphones or studio monitors for patch tweaking and making sure the house PA is EQ'd for the venue yields the best results in my experience.

This, of course, is irrelevant if your only amplification is on stage. Then you gotta do whatever it takes to make it sound right, which my involve an EQ in front of the amp or trying a flatter response amp. You're definitely on the right track to fixing it.

bd


mbenigni

#47
Good advice, musicman, but I am definitely not amenable to putting another h/w EQ in the chain just to compensate for a cab I don't care for.  I'd sooner fix that problem at the source (or would it be the destination LOL?  In this case, by replacing the K4.)  But I will take your advice and try to solve the problem using the post-FX EQ block in the GR55, which is actually pretty powerful.  I could always have the EQ setup to complement the K4 in my personal "INIT" patch, and just turn it off when I'm using better (i.e. flatter) monitors.

The only remaining problem is the headroom issue - the K4 is quick to introduce distortion with even a moderately hot input signal.

musicman65

mbenigni,

right on with fixing it at the source!  $$ is the only holdback going that route.  Adding move outboard gear would be a patch.

As for the headroom issue, I had to re-think my gain structures.  My KP550sn has the same issue with clipping as the K4. I think its an issue related to being solid state.  I have found that running the VG/ GR output lower, the amp's pre-gains lower and master volume higher eliminated my clipping issues.  Tube amps have a huge amount of headroom or perhaps better stated, a nice soft clip/overdrive that is smooth and natural.  My KP550sn gets nasty if it ever clips/overdrives, even just a small amount.

bd

mbenigni

#49
Quote from:  musicman65 on January 18, 2012, 11:56:33 AM
right on with fixing it at the source!  $$ is the only holdback going that route.

The funny thing is I could have spent less money and gotten better results (although in mono rather than the K4's limited stereo).  20/20 hindsight.  As it stands, I could probably sell the K4 even at a considerable loss, and find a portable active monitor I like better with the proceeds.  I just have to decide which one.

QuoteAs for the headroom issue, I had to re-think my gain structures.  My KP550sn has the same issue with clipping as the K4. I think its an issue related to being solid state.

The funny thing is I have no such difficulty with the HS80s.  It might be some impedance/ standards issue that I just don't understand.  In any case I can't help but think there's a stage-ready monitor out there that could keep up with the HS80.  I've considered just ordering another HS80, bolting a handle to it, and trying to fashion some sort of grill plate.

Huh... that's two funny things.  :)