What to do when a luthier doesn't deliver?

Started by Vaultnaemsae, June 30, 2017, 07:31:00 AM

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Vaultnaemsae

<<EDIT: this guitar finally arrived on 22nd Jan 2018.>>

Hi Board Members,

Has anybody here ever commissioned a luthier to build a guitar and then not had the luthier deliver on the deal? I'm Australian (currently living in Sydney). I have ordered/paid in part for a custom build from a luthier in California but he hasn't come through on his end of the deal. Any ideas how to deal with this legally in the state of California? If you're at all interested I've written a fairly detailed outline of the situation below. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

The barebones full story (If you like long stories):
Back in April 2013, during the time when I lived in East Asia, I ordered a custom guitar from a luthier who has a reputation for quality builds (but as it later became clear not for punctuality). After first contact we backed and forwarded over the specs/design for a couple of weeks. Finally, we reached an agreement (all via email mind you) and he quoted a price and an 18 month wait for completion/delivery. For me, it was/is an expensive guitar and I placed my trust in this guy based on his reputation as a world class builder. This guitar was meant to be the guitar to replace all my others so I proceeded with making the down payment at 50% of the agreed price for the build with the idea in my head that I'd be selling all my other guitars over the next year and a half. I remember the international bank transfer fees and the weak Korean won at the time really put a dent in my wallet! Ouch...but I clung to the thought of playing one of his much ballyhooed guitars...

After 12 months he advised that he was behind schedule for the due delivery period. It didn't really phase me so much at the time but he kept presenting with more and more excuses for delays. Some of them seemed pretty understandable and I like to think I'm pretty reasonable so I just let it slide believing that it would be finished soon enough. I had other stuff on my plate too.

But as time continued to pass by with no results I started to worry about it, a lot! So I tried to get in contact with him to get some answers. The guy doesn't really answer his telephone so it was terribly difficult to get in touch with him. Also the time difference made it really difficult. His email responses can take up to 2-3 months to arrive if at all.

As it happened, I was in the US in September 2015. I was thinking about just turning up at his workshop to see what was happening but that wasn't necessary as I finally got to speak to him on the phone. He assured me the guitar would be ready by January 2016. I went back to Korea and sold a couple of guitars and some studio gear to prep for the upcoming final payments. He sent some pics of the instrument in progress but of course, he didn't come through as promised.

Over the following months we would have periods of communication and I did (possibly quiet annoyingly for him) change my mind on some electronics in the build. In my defence, this was mostly because he was running so late that guitar technology was changing and moving forward in leaps and bounds.

Time rolled on and he contacted me requesting another 25% payment last October. I was feeling over a barrel but not able to 'not pay' him as I wanted the guitar finished and the finished guitar. He promptly went off the air after receiving payment again.

Since then we've had some heated words via email where I really lost my sh**. I got his attention if nothing else. Now I pretty much have no way to contact him since he will not reply to my emails and doesn't answer his phone. He did seem apologetic for the delays and has claimed the guitar is going ahead and represents his 'best work' but he has given me nothing concrete re: completion. I'm sure the guy has had some challenging times and all BUT the long and short of it all is that he still hasn't delivered the guitar in late June 2017 (over 4 years) despite him having 75% of my payments in his pocket.

What should I do?

I suppose it's weird that I'm posting this here because it's a fairly personal issue but I'm not really sure about how to proceed with this guy. He's a human and he's a artist but he's also got a responsibility here. It's rather embarrassing to admit I've got myself in this situation - I'm kind of clutching at any advice that may come from one of the many musicians who read this forum, especially the Americans amongst us. Also, I guess some of you might know the guy and can deduce his identity from the story. Any advice for how to deal with this situation to reach a win win outcome?
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

admin

#1
Custom builds can always be a daunting experience. 

Post this same message on a larger forum with 158,000 members where his peers hang out

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?forums/luthiers-guitar-bass-technical-discussion.29/

But its true many "big" name builders from the 1970's today are not getting any younger and may have extenuating circumstances, degenerative illness,  or a younger crew doing the actual work


Vaultnaemsae

Hi,
Thanks for your kind words. I've actually posted the same post on a few other bigger boards including the one you suggested.
I just thought it might be relevant to some of the guys on here as I've posted about the particular guitar/luthier in the past here.
It's sad - I actually think the guy is probably just having a really tough time but won't communicate towards figuring it out.
Who knows? ... maybe someone that knows him personally will see this and have a gentle word with him about it.
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

Elantric

Quotesomeone that knows him personally will see this and have a gentle word with him about it.

At this hour that's about the best you can hope for

Alternative is a plane flight to California and knocking on his door

Paresh

slightly OT: I had a semi-custom acoustic guitar built years ago from a name luthier. It was nice but turned out to have a bad resonance around one note. I can't stand that. Now I always check every note on a guitar before buying, but basically i was stuck. He did what he could - put a metal piece in the soundhole but it didn't do much. I'm aware that wood can be unpredictable re resonance & there's probably no way to predict how it will sound until too late. Good luck!
paresh

vtgearhead

#5
At a certain point, it's time to stop being nice.  If it were me, I'd follow this checklist:

  • Send a registered letter, return receipt requested, informing him that you are out of patience and intend to go public with his name and all pertinent details while simultaneously initiating legal remedies.  Give him a reasonable amount of time to respond.
  • If there is no response (or the response consists of more BS that you know by now won't happen), do what you promised. Remember it's not slander or defamation if you can prove your allegations (I assume you have kept notes and all correspondence, money transfer records and the like)
  • Contact the California Attorney General's office and provide all documentation to them.  Do the same with detective unit at the local police.  This is shaping up to be fraud, plain and simple, and you get no life points for letting him roll over you. I'm not sure what the statute of limitations is for fraud in California, but after four years you may be starting to run out the clock.

BTW, the fact that he doesn't answer his phone suggests he's screening callers through voice messaging.  In my experience, folks who operate in that mode are doing it for a good reason.  He probably has creditors and other irate customers hounding him on a regular basis.

Vaultnaemsae

Elantric, I would like to get out of the slightly chillier side of the year in the southern hemisphere...If anyone can hook me up for some gigs on the west coast... ;)

Paresh, I know...It's a leap of faith but one i won't have to worry about if he never finishes the guitar!
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

alexmcginness

I bought a Les Paul from a builder in Serbia. I paid the money and 7 years later I got the guitar. It was worth the wait. I eventually wound up with two of them. So, if the guy is building quality product then it will be worth the wait.
   I bought two sets of Stephens Designed NOS wire pickups back in 2014. I ordered and paid for them in February and got them in the mail at the beginning of July. Hand built quality is always worth the wait.

" Good thing come to those that wait.... sh*t shows up immediately."
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Vaultnaemsae

snhirsch,

Thanks, this is what i was looking for. I have the entire email history of our interactions and receipts for payments. It's time to go the legal route.

I gave him an email ultimatum last year. He was given three options and he chose none but 'pleaded' to my obvious desire for the instrument. Even got me to send my own hardware (plus some for another guitar he's building) and then wanted to bill me for that too. We use the C word pretty freely down here in Oz and it's hard to not use it now.

Thanks for the link. It's surprisingly difficult to find information pertaining to legal process in the US. I think it's cos we use different terminology down here; more aligned with British law.

Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

Elantric

QuoteContact the California Attorney General's office and provide all documentation to them.  Do the same with detective unit at the local police.  This is shaping up to be fraud, plain and simple, and you get no life points for letting him roll over you. I'm not sure what the statute of limitations is for fraud in California, but after four years you may be starting to run out the clock.


California Attorney General Contact URL is here

https://oag.ca.gov/contact

https://oag.ca.gov/consumers


Vaultnaemsae

Hi alexmcginness,
you give me hope! But I'm just wondering...did your Serbian builder and the custom pickup maker give you estimated delivery dates? I understand it takes time to build great stuff and would be happy to wait if i was shown the time frame and ensuing process upfront. I like to be kept in the loop if things are gonna be like that.
Maybe this  sounds ridiculous but I think I could've learned to build a great guitar in the time I've been waiting...
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

Rhcole

Can we presume you have all requisite documentation in writing? Contracts, timing, promises etc.? If so, follow the advice given here and lean on him to deliver or refund now. Don't be subtle, that has passed.

What part of CA is he in?

Elantric

Quote from: Rhcole on June 30, 2017, 10:12:03 AM
Can we presume you have all requisite documentation in writing? Contracts, timing, promises etc.? If so, follow the advice given here and lean on him to deliver or refund now. Don't be subtle, that has passed.

What part of CA is he in?

Monterey

Rhcole

If the amount is on the low side ($7500...? don't remember) you have simple remedies in U.S. law. Don't think your being outside of the U.S. Is an issue. I think you should get a U.S. attorney to write him a letter. That would be inexpensive to do. Drop me a note if you want, I work with lawyers all of the time.

chrish

#14
Quote from: snhirsch on June 30, 2017, 08:56:34 AM
At a certain point, it's time to stop being nice.  If it were me, I'd follow this checklist:

  • Send a registered letter, return receipt requested, informing him that you are out of patience and intend to go public with his name and all pertinent details while simultaneously initiating legal remedies.  Give him a reasonable amount of time to respond.
  • If there is no response (or the response consists of more BS that you know by now won't happen), do what you promised. Remember it's not slander or defamation if you can prove your allegations (I assume you have kept notes and all correspondence, money transfer records and the like)
  • Contact the California Attorney General's office and provide all documentation to them.  Do the same with detective unit at the local police.  This is shaping up to be fraud, plain and simple, and you get no life points for letting him roll over you. I'm not sure what the statute of limitations is for fraud in California, but after four years you may be starting to run out the clock.

BTW, the fact that he doesn't answer his phone suggests he's screening callers through voice messaging.  In my experience, folks who operate in that mode are doing it for a good reason.  He probably has creditors and other irate customers hounding him on a regular basis.
I think I'd be careful about using social media to expose this guy using his personal information.

Generally these matters are settled in a civil court of law.
-guide/pubwww.dmlp.org/legallishing-personal-and-private-information

"Publishing Personal and Private Information
When you publish information about someone without permission, you potentially expose yourself to legal liability even if your portrayal is factually accurate. Most states have laws limiting your ability to publish private facts about someone and recognizing an individual's right to stop you from using his or her name, likeness, and other personal attributes for certain exploitative purposes, such as for advertising goods or services. These laws originally sprang from a policy objective of protecting personal privacy; the aim was to safeguard individuals from embarrassing disclosures about their private lives and from uses of their identities that are hurtful or disruptive of their lives. Over time, the law developed and also recognized the importance of protecting the commercial value of a person's identity -- namely, the ability to profit from authorizing others to use one's name, photograph, or other personal attributes in a commercial setting.

Specifically, there are two types of legal claims that relate to unauthorized publication of personal and private information:

Publication of Private Facts: The legal claim known as "publication of private facts" is a species of invasion of privacy. You commit this kind of invasion of privacy by publishing private facts about an individual, the publication of which would be offensive to a reasonable person. This legal claim can only be successful, however, if the facts in question are not legitimately newsworthy. So, for instance, if you disclose the fact that your neighbor has an embarrassing health condition, you might be liable for publication of private facts. If, however, this medical condition is particularly relevant to some topic of public interest -- say, your neighbor's fitness to serve in public office, a court might find that your publication is lawful. Determining what facts are of legitimate public concern is often difficult to determine, so you may want to get permission before disclosing potentially embarrassing information about an individual you interview or write about. If your work sometimes involves this kind of publication, then you should see the Publication of Private Facts section for further details."

Rhcole

I agree with Chrish, if you run afoul of U.S. regulations it may restrict your remedies. Anyway, social media exposure is a wild card that might harm him, but really you either want him to build you a great guitar or give you your money back.

Of course, there are review sites such as Yelp...

Still I suggest using established remedies for this kind of circumstance. Have a lawyer write him a letter first that shows you aren't some fool who will walk away with his head down. Sometimes musicians and artists are wrongly expected not to be capable of responding to business and legal challenges. It can make somebody think twice when you demonstrate that you understand how these things work and are willing to take action.

Vaultnaemsae

Thank you so much to everybody who has chimed in. All the ideas and information will help me make an informed decisions about the next play in this messy game. To be clear, I would like the guitar in my hands.
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

vtgearhead

Quote from: chrish on June 30, 2017, 11:15:57 PM
I think I'd be careful about using social media to expose this guy using his personal information.

I am definitely not a lawyer, but the fact that this individual offers paid craftsman services to the public would probably weigh against claims of invasion of privacy stemming from you discussing his failure to deliver on one such offer.  Particularly in the case where you can document matters.

But, I do agree there's no substitute for legal advice. 

TuningMachine

Quote from: alexmcginness on June 30, 2017, 09:05:20 AM
I bought a Les Paul from a builder in Serbia. I paid the money and 7 years later I got the guitar. It was worth the wait. I eventually wound up with two of them. So, if the guy is building quality product then it will be worth the wait.
   I bought two sets of Stephens Designed NOS wire pickups back in 2014. I ordered and paid for them in February and got them in the mail at the beginning of July. Hand built quality is always worth the wait.

" Good thing come to those that wait.... sh*t shows up immediately."

Seven years? Ok if you're sixteen, not so great if you're older.

TuningMachine

Quote from: Vaultnaemsae on July 01, 2017, 04:34:45 AM
Thank you so much to everybody who has chimed in. All the ideas and information will help me make an informed decisions about the next play in this messy game. To be clear, I would like the guitar in my hands.

As mentioned, there are anti-doxing laws either based on old laws or new legislation. Don't call him out by name or provide any type of personal information. Feel free to use his business name though.

Saw a similar story on the larger forum mentioned earlier. That luthier was going through financial difficulties but the client eventually got his money back.

Persevere, keep it civil but give him a deadline for initiating formal recovery proceedings say via small claims. Could be a case where he's just taken in too much work and giving priority to those that can much more conveniently knock on his door.

alexmcginness

Quote from: TuningMachine on July 01, 2017, 06:24:11 AM
Seven years? Ok if you're sixteen, not so great if you're older.
I was 47 years old when I ordered it and just turned 54 when I picked it up.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

alexmcginness

Quote from: Vaultnaemsae on June 30, 2017, 09:13:24 AM
Hi alexmcginness,
you give me hope! But I'm just wondering...did your Serbian builder and the custom pickup maker give you estimated delivery dates? I understand it takes time to build great stuff and would be happy to wait if i was shown the time frame and ensuing process upfront. I like to be kept in the loop if things are gonna be like that.
Maybe this  sounds ridiculous but I think I could've learned to build a great guitar in the time I've been waiting...

The guitar builder gave me no set time for the build. I saw and played one of his first burst replicas and asked how much. I gave him the money immediately and was told it would be ready when it was ready and I left it at that. The pickup builder gave me a rough time frame and it took a month more that he told me. No biggie.
  Now, there was another guy that ordered a les paul from the serbian guy and after three months started to get pushy so Mirko finished it up quick and the guitar sounded and looked like a quick build. So when I hear this and saw what the guy got, I only asked once how it was coming along. What I eventually got was well worth the wait as he put extra effort into the build because I wasnt pushy and I paid full boat up front. I wound up with a second one from the guy who ordered his just before mine. He waited 6 years for his. He sold me that one because he wanted to raise some cash for a real 59 burst that he got for a steal. So Im the happy owner of two of his guitars.
  If the quality of your luthiers work is what you want then the wait will be worth it but thats for you to decide.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

aliensporebomb

This is the problem when you deal with custom builds.  Especially if it's a small shop or a one man shop.  You may have to wait years.  If you know he's reputable (and has delivered guitars to other customers) you might just have to wait and play your other guitars.

Is the design you specified really elaborate with regards to electronics and woods?  That's probably at least part of it especially if he has other customers.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

#23
Quote from: alexmcginness on July 02, 2017, 09:37:50 AM
The guitar builder gave me no set time for the build. I saw and played one of his first burst replicas and asked how much. I gave him the money immediately and was told it would be ready when it was ready and I left it at that. The pickup builder gave me a rough time frame and it took a month more that he told me. No biggie.
  Now, there was another guy that ordered a les paul from the serbian guy and after three months started to get pushy so Mirko finished it up quick and the guitar sounded and looked like a quick build. So when I hear this and saw what the guy got, I only asked once how it was coming along. What I eventually got was well worth the wait as he put extra effort into the build because I wasnt pushy and I paid full boat up front. I wound up with a second one from the guy who ordered his just before mine. He waited 6 years for his. He sold me that one because he wanted to raise some cash for a real 59 burst that he got for a steal. So Im the happy owner of two of his guitars.
  If the quality of your luthiers work is what you want then the wait will be worth it but thats for you to decide.
that's a good point, other people who are doing work for you really appreciate it if you're mellow about timing.

Reminds me of talking to the guy who's going to do the Excavating work on a spec cabin project. I met with him the other day and I told him to just put me on the list of No Stress customers and whenever you get to my job that would be great.

alexmcginness

Quote from: chrish on July 02, 2017, 01:10:43 PM
that's a good point, other people who are doing work for you really appreciate it if you're mellow about timing.

Reminds me of talking to the guy who's going to do the Excavating work on this cabin project. I met with him the other day and I told him to just put me on the list of No Stress customers and whenever you get to my job that would be great.

Exactly. Turn the situation around. Suppose YOU were the craftsman and someone ordered a work of art from you and only wanted to wait a week or two and then got nasty with you. Are ya gonna give them your best work? It takes time to craft an instrument. In my case the luthiers mother got sick and required care so Mirko put everything else aside and did what he had to do. After, because we were so patient he did a special job on my guitar.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.