Author Topic: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do  (Read 406 times)

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Offline Weed_

Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« on: April 07, 2017, 04:02:03 AM »
Hello!

I need help from expert users. I had VG99 for couple of years few years ago, then went to analog gear and now to helix. It just took too much time tweaking all artificial strat and teles, lps,..... and none of them sounded as good as the real one, great writing and inspirational tool though!
However, I play classical and electric guitar and recently got much into bass. In current band, we play as organ trio(Guitar, Hammond, Drums) without an organ, with me covering the bass and comping on guitar. On vg99 this sounded perfect, since I could split the strings and also model an instrument for each side. With helix, I am setting the lowpass filters(stacked) to get rid of upper register on one signal path and then dropping it an octave. The other path sounds like guitar with all regular effects. It sounds less than great but ok.

Now, my question is:
am I better off getting VG99 again or smaller GP10 or can I do this with sy300 which I would much prefer since I play multi guitars and really really dislike 13pin thing. I know I couldn´t assign string to bass sound but as far as I know, you can set interval range for each oscilator, so I could let´s say drop first one an octave, make it square wave, set it from E2-E3 dissable other two and it should work right?
Really appreciate any input.
Thanks!

Offline Brak(E)man

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 05:44:52 AM »
VG 99 is by far best
GP might work fine BUT
read about the alt tune anomalies
SY works also with a huge but for
the polyphony , it's not really working with chords
there's several threads about that
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Offline Smash

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 06:23:36 AM »
MIDI Guitar 2 might be a better option than SY300 - same limitation insomuch you'd have to specify a cut off note but you'd be triggering whatever bass sound you wanted rather than the questionable oscillators of the SY. Go MAC not iOS though to get anything like decent latency times.

Alternatively Fishman Tripleplay - it's easy to move the pickup between guitars provided you've double sided taped the mount to each guitar. I use the FTP on a Variax acoustic specifically to add a synth pad across all strings and bass to the bottom two strings via ipad (FTP in mono mode). Works well albeit the ipad adds latency

*EDIT* You could always go left field and try a Boss Super Octave OC3 in poly mode and set the range - Jon Gomm uses one of these to startling effect on his acoustic to get his bass notes:

https://youtu.be/f4ECPsHpI_Q?t=3m12s
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:19:58 AM by Smash »

Offline alexmcginness

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 06:38:25 AM »
Hello!

 It just took too much time tweaking all artificial strat and teles, lps,..... and none of them sounded as good as the real one

Now, my question is:
am I better off getting VG99 again or smaller GP10 or can I do this with sy300 which I would much prefer since I play multi guitars and really really dislike 13pin thing. I know I couldn´t assign string to bass sound but as far as I know, you can set interval range for each oscilator, so I could let´s say drop first one an octave, make it square wave, set it from E2-E3 dissable other two and it should work right?
Really appreciate any input.
Thanks!

Did you try modeling your real guitar in to the 99? This is when things changed for me. I have a GK-3 on my Strat. So, I plugged the VG-99 in to one input of my sound card and the output of my Strat into another output and recorded each into Wavelab say, playing an E chord. Now before I hit record, I set the virtual guitar to the same pickup as the Strat and made each string level on the virtual Strat match the real one. I chose the Classic Strat instead of the Modern one as the bottom strings on the Classic Strat are brighter. Once the string levels match then record into Wavelab. Then seperate each side of the stereo track into two monos and save each. So, you will have two mono files. One from the virtual strat and one from the real strat. Put the real strat into a program called Har-Bal, as a reafrence and load the virtual guitar wave as a source. Drag the source file over the refrence and see where you need to eq it to get a closer match. In the VG 99 theres 5 parametric eqs. You can see where you need to boost and cut the virtual guitar to match the the real one. Make some eq adjustments and repeat the recording proceedure and Har-Bal comparison. t usually takes about 9-15 comparrison/tweaks to get it more than close. Now you have a model of your Strat in the 99 for that pickup selection. On chanel B do the same for one of the other positions you usually use. I normally use C=R and the Front. So on my Strat patch the C+R is on chanel A and the front is on Chanel B.
   Theres all sorts of tricks beyond that from Bill Ruppert. The LPF to get rid of the fizz to the limiter after the amp to simulate tube compression and others. All VG stuff is "work" but once you get the hang of it, its heaven and its versatile and fun. AND the 99 is far easier to tweak on the fly compared to the GP 10. I have both.
   In days gone by, musicians were musicians. Now musicians are required to wear a lot more hats. You have to be a musician, a recording engineer, a sound designer/programmer,and arranger, a producer,  a marketer, a publicist, a promoter, an image consultant and a performer. You are the president and CEO of a one person personal services company. YOU.
   If you'll spend the time learning the VG-99 you'll have a huge arsenal of music tools/inspiration at your fingertips to use. I encourage you to delve in to it. I don't think you'll be sorry. But...it will take time and effort.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 06:43:02 AM by alexmcginness »
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP.

Offline Smash

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 07:22:08 AM »
Hey Alex - don't suppose you fancy sharing you're modelled strat sounds as a mid file?

Offline alexmcginness

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 07:56:47 AM »
Hey Alex - don't suppose you fancy sharing you're modelled strat sounds as a mid file?

Yeah Ill dig it out and make a quick demo. Ive found that my patches dont translate well to other peoples set ups because most of the "modeled " patches are ones I use live and are fairly "dull" sounding so as not to rip the punters ears off. They work well enough for me with my backing tracks but to use them for recording they need some bass loped off and more brightness.
  I believe I got the All Right Now patch from you or Rolandvg99. That one sounds great for recording but thru my Mackie SRM 450 its just a mid range monster. Ive re adjusted it a bit and it works better for me now.
   I was gonna do a quick tutorial on how I use Har-Bal but that will have to wait until I get back from Norway. Stay tuned for the patch. Ill have it here by tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 08:09:29 AM by alexmcginness »
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP.

Offline mccorp

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2017, 09:26:13 AM »
Tomorrow Never Knows. You have taken me on a fascinating journey. A most interesting read. I would love to hear the patch should you be able to find the time to share it. I am using a GP-10.
Sometimes you have to let go of the melody and focus on the rhythm

Offline alexmcginness

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2017, 06:54:28 AM »
Tomorrow Never Knows. You have taken me on a fascinating journey. A most interesting read. I would love to hear the patch should you be able to find the time to share it. I am using a GP-10.

Youd be better off just modeling your own strat into the 99 using Har-bal. The authentiucity of the modeling is affected by the guitar the GK is on. It took me a while once I modeled my Strat to get it ported over to the Traveller guitar I use on the road. I had to re tweak the string sensitivities because of the variance of the string height to pickup on each guitar.
  The best way to model a guitar into the VG is to have a GK on the guitar you want to model. Plug the real guitar into one channel of your sound card and the VG into another. Boot up something that can measure the volume of each and go into the VG and call up the model of virtual guitar you want to model and select the proper pickup. So if youre modeling a Strat maybe start with the neck pickup on the real one and the virtual one. Then, look at the meters in the software and adjust the volume of each string until it matches the real guitar. Now, record a stereo file playing say a 1st position Echord two or three times. Once recorded ( I use Wavelab for this. ) then copy one side of the stereo file and make a mono wave, then do the same for the other side of the stereo file. Youll wind up with two mono files, one of the real Strat and one with the virtual strat. Boot up Har-Bal and import the real guitar .wav as a refrence and the virtual one as a file. Drag the virtual one on top of the refrence ( this will take some practice ) and see where the eq needs to be adjusted to make it closer to the real strat. Boot up the VG editor and call up some eq and make adjustments based on what youre seeing in Harbal. Repeat the recording process again, seperate the files and put them into harbal and see what needs further tweaking.
   It usually takes me between 9 and 15 trys to get it really close.
 Then do the same for other pickup positions.
  I usually use two positions on my real strat, neck and c/r so the 99 does exactly what my real strat does.
  The Tele model in the 99 is not something Im too impressed with. The top strings are way to thin and trebly and the bottom too muddy. I may do a dual chanel model of that one where I use one side of the 99 for the top strings and the other channel for the bottom. Ive got an 82 Tokai Breezy sound but I cant get a gk 3 on it without a lot of work so modeling it remains on the to do list.
   Ive also modeled my Guyatone TO-2 pedal into the 99 as well. It was fairly easy to model compared to modeling the Strat.
  Posting these patches wont do you any favors as theyre tweaked for my guitar and for using live. In the studio theyre very muddy but thru a Mackie 450 at volume they work well.
  Heres some noodlin around I did late one dead night on the boat I was workin on. Its the Strat model and the Guyatone model running straight into the board. Excuse the mistakes.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 07:23:12 AM by alexmcginness »
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP.

Offline mccorp

Re: Sy-300 vs GP10 vs VG99 for what I do
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 01:37:08 PM »
Wow, 2014 was a good year! A great bit of soloing there.   :) Thanks too for taking the time to explain the process a bit more. A have some technical hurdles ahead of me. I look forward to hearing more of your work.
Sometimes you have to let go of the melody and focus on the rhythm

 

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