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Boss SY-300 Guitar Synth => Boss SY-300 Examples => Topic started by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM

Title: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM
2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.

www.brakophonic.com/SY1.mp3 (http://www.brakophonic.com/SY1.mp3)

www.brakophonic.com/SY2.mp3 (http://www.brakophonic.com/SY2.mp3)

I used a slightly gritty sound , played sloppy etc.

No added fx or eq etc. only SYs sound
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: lumena on January 30, 2017, 05:45:30 AM
Ok I am curious how did you send hex into the sy-300.

Thanks for the monday perk up.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 06:13:14 AM
GP 10 dry out each string separate and all together ,  then resynth on SY300
One track with the strings together and six tracks with individual
strings one at the time and mixed down
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: lumena on January 30, 2017, 08:55:30 AM
smart
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 09:13:19 AM
I wanted to know what SY 300 would sound like playing normal chords through a hex instead of the not working guitar input. The difference is extreme. Why Boss decided to skip the hex on the unit, must be one of the more stupid decision they've come up with . Why not have both like GP10 and let the guitar player decide on hex or not ( I know there's a difference between SY and GP regarding what the normal guitar input is used for )

The method I'm trying is working, I should prob turn of some of the fx and add that in the Daw for better result, the big downside is the time consuming record and resynth 6 times.
And the fact that there's no possible live use , when I hear the result I only get more frustrated with this in most other aspects best guitar synth I've tried IMO
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 10:25:33 AM
QuoteWhy Boss decided to skip the hex on the unit, must be one of the more stupid decision they've come up with

The Answer is simple

the SY-300 focus is synth for normal guitars

Its NOT a trivial task to add a GK 13 pin input - it requires six A/D converters and enough processing power to handle 6 or 7 (hex PU+ normal mags) audio streams in real time, which the SY-300 is incapable of

I'm hoping they release a "GP-20"  in September 2017 which would be a combo of GP-10,  SY-300, ME-80 ;)   
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 10:49:38 AM
I understand that BUT the SY is IMHO the best functioning guitar synth I've played, ( apart from the HEX problem) . Hearing what it'd sound like with a HEX makes it even more annoying. I'd pay 4 times as much or more for the unit if it worked like that.
I'm also hoping for a combo but ...
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
You could buy another 5 SY-300 units and use a GK 13 pin breakout to run each string into each SY-300.

To make the SY-300 a hex unit would require 6 x the processing power and considerably more cost.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 11:04:19 AM
It would be good if the SY-300 technology was merged with a GR-55, for a next generation guitar synth.
Allowing the option of hex input or mono input, and then driving COSM modelling, PCM synth, and SY-300 type synth.
All-in-one-box.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
You could buy another 5 SY-300 units and use a GK 13 pin breakout to run each string into each SY-300.

To make the SY-300 a hex unit would require 6 x the processing power and considerably more cost.

The solution with 6 SYs is appealing but toooo bulky !
And I doubt if it needs 6 times the processing power.
A lot of the stuff like FX etc can be shared and it's already capable of 6 times 3 osc.
It's been a loooong time since my engineers degree so I could be wrong but nah..
The biggest problem is that the input they chose to implement doesn't work.
I mean listen to the chords in those two examples above.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 11:10:21 AM
Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 11:04:19 AM
It would be good if the SY-300 technology was merged with a GR-55, for a next generation guitar synth.
Allowing the option of hex input or mono input, and then driving COSM modelling, PCM synth, and SY-300 type synth.
All-in-one-box.

I agree especially if VG8 , 88 and 99 where to be implemented as well  :)
And if they could get PCM tones from the same technology as SY etc.
The present trig of PCM doesn't hack it IMO
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: chrish on January 30, 2017, 11:31:54 AM
The thing that i don't understand is that the gp10 has both hex and 1/4'' guitar inputs and the gp10 is way less expensive than the sy300.

Is the additional processing power really that expensive?

i like the idea of 6 sy-300 and a breakout box. I have 2 already, 4 to go. :-)

By the way, up to 16 moog voyager rme (and or slim phattys) can be stacked and linked via the software to achieve polyphony.

With the moog, I've found that a long unit warm up time, besides osc stability, provides for better midi pitch to cv stability when used with the vg-99 or gr-50. But still would like a ftp for that purpose.

When i get some time, i'd like to port some moog patches to the sy-300 and visa versa.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Quote
Is the additional processing power really that expensive?

Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: szilard on January 30, 2017, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM
2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.

Good demo, that really shows the problems with using a 1/4 input. Sure makes me hope they do some hex version.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: chrish on January 30, 2017, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology

That certainly describes the sy-300 tech. Glad i purchased two of them because when i limit my playing technique to expect only 3 note poly, then the thing works great for what i do.

However, paying a little more for  hex processing would have been well worth it. It would have been a monster synth.

I just hope that roland doesn't keep releasing more 1/4'' tech of this type and imply that it's way better than the last version, unless it really works.

imo, they did this with the gr series synths concerning the pitch and tracking glitch issues.

imo, the old gr50  has fewer pitch to glitch issues than the vg99 when using 5 pin midi din out to external tone modules or synths like the moog voyager.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology

I payed much more than that almost double. At the time living in Scandinavia the price was much higher. Moving to USA made me realize how spoiled with low prices you are.
I'd pay that or more for a functional SY
And I believe that Boss aimed at the wrong target and shot themselves in the foot trying to sell the non working polyphony to guitarist who hates hex. They won't buy a guitar synth anyway.

And I don't think that it'd add up to that amount of monedas to get a working SY with hex.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
From a marketing perspective (as the way large manufacturers see things),
selling a half a$$ guitar synth to the general guitar 1/4" jack population will sell much more units than
a specialist expensive 13 pin product to a smaller customer base.

It is an unfortunate way of the world that much musical instrument equipment is designed by accountants.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 12:53:10 PM
i agree with Gumtown - and many here developed their expectations based upon the 2007 Roland VG-99, but loose sight of the global economic recession / meltdown of 2008 and its continued impact on today's economy which remains tight in many sectors. Sales wise the VG-99 was a dud. In the past 6 months, Roland has already manufactured more Boss Katana Amps than the entire 5 year VG-99 production run.

In 2017, the most vocal enthusiasts with deep pockets are not in the USA, instead its Europe who is getting Roland Management's current attention, with the resulting "closed box" Strandberg VGuitar, that IMHO is polar opposite of what the VG-99 paradigm represents.

Serves as a reminder that "new" does not necessarily mean "better"

       
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 01:00:43 PM
Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
From a marketing perspective (as the way large manufacturers see things),
selling a half a$$ guitar synth to the general guitar 1/4" jack population will sell much more units than
a specialist expensive 13 pin product to a smaller customer base.

It is an unfortunate way of the world that much musical instrument equipment is designed by accountants.

It's exactly the opposite of what my local dealer says.
They thought SY was going to sell but because of the
crap polyphony and mushiness of the SY-300 the main seller
by large is today still the GR55 meaning the hex not the price
and that box is old

Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Quotethe main seller
by large is today still the GR55 meaning the hex not the price
and that box is old

And I can confirm 80% of new members today still mention reason for joining the forum is for our  GR-55 knowledge and patches.

its still 5:1 GR-55 vs GP-10, and SY-300 users remain very rare,   despite my own preference for the GP-10 as a relevant tool, (its been years since anyone joined to learn more about the VG-99 ( i recall it was Radley)) while my GR-55 collects dust because I still view the GR-55 as a technology demonstrator  / "jack of all trades, but master of none".
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
I'm just disappointed that's all
Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM
2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.

www.brakophonic.com/SY1.mp3

www.brakophonic.com/SY2.mp3

I used a slightly gritty sound , played sloppy etc.

No added fx or eq etc. only SYs sound
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on January 30, 2017, 02:48:54 PM
OR, Boss could have positioned the SY like the Mooer Ocean Machine, promoting it for its massive atmospheric and ambient capabilities and placing less emphasis on the Osc section.
I'm going to guess that the Ocean Machine will find its audience and do quite well.
But no, every Boss demo in the universe highlights shred and metal playing and leaves out everything else. The new Strandberg guitar demos are a case in point.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 10:21:52 PM
Or they could focus on the osc that actually works and fix the polyphony the doesn't .
And promote the shredding and atmospheric qualities.
IMHO the problem is that it doesn't work. You can't play chords with it.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on January 30, 2017, 11:15:55 PM
I think my point is, from a design standpoint, Roland never really intended it to be polyphonic. If you look back at the original videos, they rarely referenced polyphony and when they did it was a quick 3 note root third fifth sort of sound played briefly.

Roland intended the SY-300 to be a lead synth type of tool aimed at progressive hard core players, particularly those who liked aggressive sounds. Polyphony was a mumbled side feature.

It just sort of missed the mark marketing-wise. The targeted audience didn't buy it.

I don't begrudge Roland for wanting that market, although it's not my style. Go get 'em Roland.
But, Roland SEEMS to want the metal/shred market and never seems to speak to them in the right way with the techno whiz products.

We'll see what they develop next, but I have to believe they are becoming disheartened at the response they are getting for these products. That certainly doesn't encourage them to make more powerful and complex tools. From Roland's perspective, it wouldn't make sense to decide that the SY wasn't popular because it didn't have clean enough polyphony, and therefore they need to step up and make a box twice as expensive with four times the power.

Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 11:50:35 PM
I agree

I'm just really disappointed.
The SY is the best guitar synth IMHO apart from the hex.
It's a beaut. Guitar mono synth.
And my guess is that it'll be a keeper.
(That said , the synth algorithms in VG8 are better but not as versatile
and they work with polyphony and alt tuning.
I might as well get that machine out of storage.)
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: chrish on January 31, 2017, 07:08:43 AM
They did advertise the sy-300 as being polyphonic, however they were playing coy with how many notes poly it is using all virtual oscs.

Most synths will state the note poly and roland did not. I think that we all assumed that since it's a guitar synth it would have clean six note poly. After all, that's what we got with the vg's.

Have you tried spliting the v-oscs so that the note ranges that they play is spread out across the fret board?   
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 31, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
I have worked with Boss/Roland for a long time.
I bought the polyphony as advertised I saw no
reason to  doubt that, I've had nothing but good experience
with the other Boss/Roland products until GP-10

Can you beleive the difference the real polyphony made ?
I was blown away !

And no I haven't tried splitting the osc.
Even with only 3 strings in use it's blahh...

I guess I'm going to use the SY primarily as a mono synth
maybe I'll use this method with resynth in the studio.


Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on January 31, 2017, 09:04:24 AM
I have written before about the polyphony of other products in the marketplace that are also advertised as being fully polyphonic. You can try an EHX Pitchfork or HOG2 if you want to experience some ghastly glitches when chords are played. Nobody has clean 1/4 inch polyphony yet. The closest is the Mel-9, which shows that EHX is slowly improving in this area.

Chrish, you have two SYs, right? Mapping the six oscillators across the fretboard would be very interesting to try. I am going to try it with three oscillators. It isn't likely to be a great solution though, not just because it reduces the richness of having combined voices but also because many chords will  have more than one pitch per oscillator, still producing glitches.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on January 31, 2017, 09:17:22 AM
Jamorigin and the deep fx seems to be getting close.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 31, 2017, 04:00:34 PM
I dunno.  I think the 99 still fits my definition of a "polyphonic nextgen" guitar product that makes my guitar sound like nearly anything I want.  The Guitar-to-Midi works well when used over USB.

The GP-10 does some cool stuff too but it's not in the league (although the factory patches on the GP10 play to the devices strengths unlike the 99's factory presets).   Some of its built in synth stuff is nice although I don't have nearly the programming control I do on a 99 and some of the acoustic and modeled sounds are obviously "newer generation" than the 99 but I expected that.

Together, I have multiple devices that fill multiple roles.

Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: chrish on February 01, 2017, 07:18:00 AM
Quote from: Rhcole on January 31, 2017, 09:04:24 AM
I have written before about the polyphony of other products in the marketplace that are also advertised as being fully polyphonic. You can try an EHX Pitchfork or HOG2 if you want to experience some ghastly glitches when chords are played. Nobody has clean 1/4 inch polyphony yet. The closest is the Mel-9, which shows that EHX is slowly improving in this area.

Chrish, you have two SYs, right? Mapping the six oscillators across the fretboard would be very interesting to try. I am going to try it with three oscillators. It isn't likely to be a great solution though, not just because it reduces the richness of having combined voices but also because many chords will  have more than one pitch per oscillator, still producing glitches.
yes, i purchased two because i wanted stereo inputs, extra virtual osc and the ability to experiment with stacking 8 delays with the output of one sy feeding the input of the other sy.

that concept of stacking the same fx was new to me until i studied one of your patches where you had 2 reverbs going into a delay plus reverbs.

i like your idea of the splits using the two units. That would yield one virtual osc per string freq range with some over lap.

the over lap may make for an interesting modulation.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on February 01, 2017, 09:18:04 AM
Yeah, to get minimal overlap in your setup you might change to the next oscillator after the fifth. With one SY you are almost forced to use one oscillator per octave, which would still make it pretty mushy on many chords.

So a min 7th in a two SY setup would have the 7th in a second oscillator, and that would certainly improve clarity. The root min third fifth would produce some mush but not as much.

Maybe you could even change after the fourth, leaving only a likely two notes per oscillator for most chords.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Elantric on February 01, 2017, 12:28:38 PM
This is possible, although not practical - could try using a hex 13 pin guitar > 6 channel break-out box and feed six Katana 50-112 combos running the Wave Synth effect ($199/ ea = $1200 for six)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/986e7arnl/Screen_Shot_2016_12_01_at_12_11_33_PM.png)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/fx8c9knlt/Screen_Shot_2016_12_01_at_12_11_44_PM.png)
Then use the Katana Guitar to WAVE SYNTH effect

(https://s6.postimg.cc/6cn0ft401/KTN_6.jpg)
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: gumtown on February 01, 2017, 12:49:48 PM
6 x Boss GT-1's will work out at about the same price too.  ;)
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on February 01, 2017, 12:57:27 PM
The price is not the issue, I'd buy 6 SY if I could get them in a box the same size as one.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on February 01, 2017, 01:47:12 PM
I did an experiment with the SY over lunch splitting strings. Look for a quick note under the SY Discussions section.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: admin on February 01, 2017, 02:10:40 PM
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fglguitars.com%2Finstruments%2FUSA%2Fguitars%2FComanche%2FCOM_HNYBRS_PFMT_BEMP_VTGN_P-1200.jpg&hash=17e049ec65cb43971c4c3fbea6ef35a884691cf3)

If the SY-300 tracks three note chords OK -
you could modify a G&L Commanche for Dual outputs using a TRS output jack,

- then feed lower three Strings into SY-300 #1
- and feed upper three Strings into SY-300 #2
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on February 01, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
It can track three note chords but only some very basic ones,
the pitch algorithm should be able to update though
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on February 01, 2017, 02:57:54 PM
Root - Seventh makes it gag. Other intervals that produce beat frequencies will respond the same way. Root - Fifth, Root - Octave, etc. are great.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: chrish on February 01, 2017, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: gumtown on February 01, 2017, 12:49:48 PM
6 x Boss GT-1's will work out at about the same price too.  ;)
:-) did boss put output jacks on those? ;-)
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on March 24, 2017, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: Rhcole on February 01, 2017, 02:57:54 PM
Root - Seventh makes it gag. Other intervals that produce beat frequencies will respond the same way. Root - Fifth, Root - Octave, etc. are great.

Nines and seconds doesn't work either
Nor fourths which is odd since fifths work
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Brak(E)man on May 05, 2017, 08:35:32 AM
Listening again for the first time since posting the examples, makes me
pissed off. Why won't Roland listen ?
Their products are great and have so much potential but
a lot is wasted by not hearing what the users have to say.
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: reingarnichts on July 26, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
Although I am a bit late:
Thank you for posting this great demonstration.
I was thinking of buying an SY300, but after listening to these files and reading some of the posts in this forum, I've decided against it.
I already own a GP10 and I love the GR300-model (mainly because of King Crimsons Discipline, I fear...) but I am quite annoyed with the 13-Pin-stuff (especially those delicate cables, which cost a fortune here in Europe, and I can't find decent jacks to solder my own...).
Polyphony is very much needed in the context I play my guitar-synth-sounds, and most of the stuff I do is rather dissonant...
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: admin on July 26, 2017, 09:26:25 AM
Need to order PrimovaSound GK cables from Sweden
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13234.0
PM member Codesmart
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: reingarnichts on July 26, 2017, 01:49:00 PM
Thank you for the tip!  :)
Title: Re: SY-300 played with hex and without
Post by: Rhcole on July 26, 2017, 03:14:04 PM
I swear by these cables:
http://gittlerinstruments.com/product/d13-cable

AND, I swear AT Boss/Roland cables!!