GR-55 - Unacceptable lag between preset changes via midi pedal

Started by Midicity, February 23, 2015, 07:11:23 PM

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Midicity

I have tried 3 different midi pedals, Decibel Eleven Switch Dr. / old DMC ground control / Voodoo Lab gc pro with the GR55 to change its patches. The GR55 itself is the culprit but how do I get the midi lag between preset changes to be quicker? All my other devices change twice as fast. This lag or delay is very noticeable and not good. Any suggestion?

Elantric

QuoteI have tried 3 different midi pedals, Decibel Eleven Switch Dr. / old DMC ground control / Voodoo Lab gc pro with the GR55 to change its patches. The GR55 itself is the culprit but how do I get the midi lag between preset changes to be quicker? All my other devices change twice as fast. This lag or delay is very noticeable and not good. Any suggestion?

True - and for what it is worth, this long GR-55 patch change delay exists when changing on the presets on the GR-55 unit itself.

Third party gear sending MIDI program changes to the GR-55  does not make the GR-55 change its presets any faster.


We mention the GR-55' long patch delay here

GR-55 FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

( and FWIW - the Boss GP-10 has very fast patch changes with barely perceptible delay)

The workaround on GR-55 is careful construction of Multi-Sound GR-55 patches - where one patch exhibits all the sounds you need per song. Avoid changing patches mid song.

read


* GR-55 Control Switch - More than 1 function?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9863.msg70789#msg70789

* GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patches (solves the GR-55 long Patch change delay (with mute) issue)

  1) Jim Williams Multiple Assignment Patches.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5647.msg38806#msg38806

2) Learn multi-assignments by following all steps outlined here - then edit to suit YOUR needs.

Guitarplayer_10's  GR-55 Ultimate Multi Control patch step by step
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7267.msg50612#msg50612



Toby Krebs posted dozens of GR-55 patches he uses at his gig. Each patch uses Multiple Control Assignments for the Expression pedal to allow you to "pan" between rhythm and solo tones withing each patch  - this allow you to use One GR-55 patch per song and circumvent the long mute silence gap that occurs when changing GR-55 patches during a song.   
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8709.0
 

Midicity

Thanks very much for your help. I'm about to dive in. I have to do the changes via midi remotely though as the main guitar player utilizes my rig from the other side of the stage with his decibel eleven switch dr controlling mine then mine sends midi program change to the gr55. The midi delay happens the same from my midi pedal or his so you know. I programmed about 20 patches so this may be tricky. Most are based on the exact same rythm distorted patch and the delay patches are just the rythm patch with cntrl button activating the delay. Others are based off the same rythm patch with chorus or flange or fuzz etc. The clean patches are not using amp modeling but are using compressor, tad but of drive, chorus or flange or phaser.

What would you suggest is the best option for triggering these changes without lag?

Elantric

QuoteWhat would you suggest is the best option for triggering these changes without lag?

A different box than the GR-55.( Jack of all trades, master of none)

The GR-55 patch delay is unalterable, and makes no different what is the trigger source for patch changes ( onboard pedals, GK-3 S1,S2 switches or external MIDI patch change commands ) - this can't be fixed and is a result of the larger amount of data it takes to fill the GR-55's DSP RAM, which assumes you are going to use the dual PCM internal sound sources for every patch - thus the long mute on every patch change. i do not tolerate it ( so my GR-55 is never my main live guitar processor). To effectively use the GR-55 live at the gig requires use of Multi -Sound - patches - ( 2-4 sounds per patch are possible by using the GR-55's onboard Expression pedal and CTRL pedal), but much preplanning and  is required to accommodate this, and many guitarists find it too restrictive  to create a whole nights worth of  "one patch per song, User bank of patches and simply sell the GR-55 and get a better tool.

Suggest check you email for the VGuitarforums Group Buy price for Boss GP-10 ( Zero patch delay and you can buy two along with a $35 Raspberry PI to add 5 pin MIDI I/O.   


But it sounds like you are not using any Synth features of the GR-55  - perhaps a  GT-100 would be better tool for your needs?

But you are among the few bands Ive heard of with two guitarists who must share one GR-55 processor.

Is this an indicator of how tough the economic times are out there for musicians?

You might trade the GR-55 for two gently used Boss GT-8's ($200 each) and pocket $200 towards tires for the band vehicle?

Midicity

I sing mainly and play guitar/ guitar synth on a few songs. The main guitarist utilizes my gr55 along with his rig for guitar only stuff via the 1/4 input on the filter buffer box then the 13 pin out of the filter buffer to the gr55. Only one of us is utilizing the gr55 at a time. Pedalboard space and using both rigs 24/7 so that he can mix my patches with his all analogue setup is the goal. We want the soundguy to have one quick check and utilize both rigs as one basically. I've spent many hours making this work. I thought I was done but now this midi lag is killing me and I feel it was all for naught ugh.

Elantric

Quotethis midi {patch change} lag is killing me and I feel it was all for naught ugh.

The patch change lag remains even pressing the GR-55's onboard patch change pedals

I review lots of gear and the patch change lag on ALL DSP gear is the first thing I check, as this is often the deal breaker for live use.  The manufacturers will never tell you this "feature" pre-sale.

EDIT - and in 2019 the Mooer GE300 has the fastest gap free patch to  patch change time - almost no gap in sound, and has delay  / reverb tails

Midicity

Ugh so via the decibel eleven pedal using midi remotely without lag is not possible on the gr55? The guitarist hits button one for dry distorted Mesa, button 2 for the same patch with delay but saved on a different preset etc. He needs to be able to hit a different midi patch or somehow remotely switch stuff on / off in the gr55 using the switch dr pedal only. I think the switch dr can send midi cc. My switch dr is mirroring his as far as when he hits preset 1 it changes my switch dr to prest 1. My preset 1 then sends out any midi specific changes to my gr55. I do not think him using an expression pedal is an option to control my rig and even if it was he would opt out of utilizing it as he is old school. It took some persuading to get midi and the gr55 into the mix. I hope to not regret it.

http://www.decibel11.com/Switch-Dr.html


Elantric

The critical element is the time it takes to swap out the GR-55's internal DSP RAM that stores the 1's and 0's that represent each individual GR-55 patch. this takes upwards of 200 milliseconds. Roland engineers placed an internal "mute" transistor on the final output stage, to mask the flurry of noise that emerges from the D/A's during these transitions of  loading and unloading of GR-55 programs to the DSP.

Makes no difference what the source of the patch change command is. an external MIDI controller will not make the GR-55's internal DSP load a new program any faster.

Midicity

Is it possible to use some combination of the descriptions utilizing the floorboard editor above on this thread to remote toggle on / off delay or chorus or amp modeling via switch dr. external midi cc triggered by a single foot press of the switch dr pedal? I could have the same preset for most everything as long as a single press of the midi pedal triggers the changes. This is needed without the gk3 pickup. Only using the Joness filter buffer 1/4 in.

Elantric

Sure


A separate MIDI pedal that can send "MIDI CC#"  data is required

For example, for a specific patch, use the Control Assignments to allow :
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 127 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect on
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 0 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect off.

This is all in the GR55 FAQ thread mentioned before
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

Read the GR-55 Control Assignment thread

*GR-55 Control Assignments
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3868.0

Midicity


Elantric

Like many tasks in life- its painful at first to wrap your brain around the MIDI spec  but its possible to achieve your goals.

gumtown

Sounds like most of your problems would be solved if the other guitarist just got his own gear.
The interconnecting between rigs must cause earth loop hum problems.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Midicity

Trying to make due with what is available. He has a half stack but no fx aside from whammy, delay and wah. I also benefit from tapping the gr55 signal for my in ears. I'm a team player so the expense incurred on my behalf will make the band sound better so whatever it takes.

Midicity

Quote from: Elantric on February 24, 2015, 05:32:08 AM
Sure


A separate MIDI pedal that can send "MIDI CC#"  data is required

For example, for a specific patch, use the Control Assignments to allow :
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 127 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect on
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 0 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect off.

This is all in the GR55 FAQ thread mentioned before
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

Read the GR-55 Control Assignment thread

*GR-55 Control Assignments
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3868.0

I am able to somewhat control the delay on / off but I have to press the button on my decibel eleven midi pedal 2 times? Maybe I am not doing something right Pushing the button twice is not an option unfortunately.



I did just try it in momentary mode and it seems to be working but only in edit mode to toggle between db11 midi pedal (button 1 w no delay and no cc message sent) to db11 midi pedal (button 2 with midi cc 23 sent) but I am not sure if anomalies may occur if we jump to other patches and come back? When in regular preset mode it does not work?

Elantric

Try Changing the Assignment#1 Source Mode, from "Toggle" to "Momentary"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13238.msg88865#msg88865
GR-55 assign  [toggle] + FS-7  [Latch] = double latching, pedal requires 2 presses to do one function (effect on/off)

GR-55 assign  [toggle] + FS-7  [Moment] = press once to toggle effect on/off, pedal led only lights while held down

GR-55 assign  [moment] + FS-7  [moment] = effect only on while pedal held down, pedal led only on while held down

GR-55 assign  [moment] + FS-7  [Latch] = press once to toggle effect on/off, pedal led toggles with effect status

Midicity

I put it to momentary.
Seems to only work when in edit mode. I saved it properly as well.
When it's in regular play or (preset) mode no change to delay on/off at all. I used to have delay set to be turned on via the ctrl button on the gr55. The ctrl button still turns delay on and off though.
When in edit mode and even in the delay settings view of the actual gr55, I can press DB11 button one that sends no cc and its dry and you can see the switch say off. I then hit DB11 button 2 that has cc 23 enabled and you can hear delay and see the switch say ON in the gr55 units delay edit page. I'm confused?

I could be wrong but I don't think the switch dr midi pedal has the ability to send 0-127 only a cc message or maybe they figure the expression pedal jack controls o-127 values? It does allow for 8 total cc messages to be sent. Should I send one midi channel preset to send midi cc 23 for delay off and the next db11 preset button sending midi cc 24 for delay on? if so then what would the settings be for the assign page?

Elantric

Time to use a third party MIDI monitor, to view exactly what MIDI data is being sent by the Decibel 11 controller

MIDI controller Setup / Debug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2975.0

Midicity

Quote from: Elantric on February 24, 2015, 02:11:10 PM
Time to use a third party MIDI monitor, to view exactly what MIDI data is being sent by the Decibel 11 controller

MIDI controller Setup / Debug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2975.0



preset 2 only. Sent out midi from switch dr to my focusrite midi in




preset 1 only. Sent out midi from switch dr to my focusrite midi in

gumtown

Something wrong with your data there,
you are sending 2 lots of bank/control/patch change most of it is on midi channel 2 and one of your patch change data is on channel 3.

Unless I am mistaken with what you are trying to achieve?



GR-55 Patch 1 should look like
B1 00 00   B1 20 00   C1 00
to do a patch change on Midi channel 2
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Midicity

The switch dr sends 3 midi channels out at once. I have channel 1 disabled but I use channel 2 for the gr55 and channel 3 for my voicelive 3. I have no cc being sent on button 1 (switch dr) and a cc for 23 on button 2 (switch dr) being sent. I am a bit confused on how to remedy my issue as when the gr55 is in edit mode it works where button 1 = no delay and you can see it not on inside the gr55. On button 2 the delay is on but again only when I am in edit mode on the gr55. As soon as I get out of edit mode pressing button 1 or 2 does nothing. I do have the exact same preset (gr55 bank 10-2) for both buttons.

I have the switch dr set to normal on the cc menu. This is what the manual says. Should I not have it set to normal? Thanks so much for your help.

The MIDI Continuous Controller ON/OFF switches can now be configured to send ON
messages ONLY. When this mode is selected, an activated MIDI CC switch will only
send a value of 127. When the switch is set to OFF in a preset, no MIDI data is sent.
This can be useful for certain types of effect devices and when controlling the
functions of a delay/looper pedal.
Each CC switch group, CC.A and CC.B , can be independently set to either "normal"
type or "only-send-on" type. Refer to page 16 of the user manual for details on
programming the MIDI CC switches. In SETUP MODE->CC.A, the controller numbers
are assigned sequentially using the ? switch. Following the last switch (#4)
assignment, pressing the ? switch again displays the setting for the CC switch type:
nOr = normal (on/off), and oSo = only-send-on. Use the ? switch to return to the
controller number assignments. The same setting is available for SETUP MODE->CC.B
When used in a preset, this type of CC switch offers a convenient way to not send CC
data by leaving the switch OFF. In this way, a preset can be programmed to only send
a single MIDI CC message.

Elantric

QuoteI used to have delay set to be turned on via the ctrl button on the gr55. The ctrl button still turns delay on and off though.

This may be the problem

As a test, I would un-assign the GR-55' Delay on /off via GR-55 CTL pedal  , and re-save the patch, then retry.

QuoteUnless I am mistaken with what you are trying to achieve?

He wants to remotely control the GR-55 delay on/off via an external MIDI CC# message from his Decibel 11 Switch DR pedal using GR-55 Control Assignment#1
http://www.decibel11.com/Switch-Dr.html
* external MIDI CC#23 message data 127 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect on
* external MIDI CC#23 message data 0 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect off.

Midicity

Wow. Another weird thing is that when the gr55 is in edit mode and I go between switch dr presets 1 & 2 there is no midi lag. When out of edit mode, even though preset 1 & 2 on the switch dr are the exact same patch on the gr55 there is the midi lag still.

Midicity

Quote from: Elantric on February 24, 2015, 04:35:08 PM
This may be the problem

As a test, I would un-assign the GR-55' Delay on /off via GR-55 CTL pedal  , and re-save the patch, then retry.

He wants to remotely control the GR-55 delay on/off via an external MIDI CC# message from his Decibel 11 Switch DR pedal using GR-55 Control Assignment#1
http://www.decibel11.com/Switch-Dr.html
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 127 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect on
* external MIDi CC#23 message data 0 to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect off.



I turned the ctrl feature off as recommended and saved. Still the same behavior. I even tried my old ground control midi pedal. same behavior

Elantric

upload the problem GR-55 patch, so others can explore.

I'm still not seeing that you are correctly feeding the GR-55
* external MIDI CC#23 message data 127(0x7F) ( MIDI Channel_2)  to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect on
* external MIDI CC#23 message data 0 (0x0) ( MIDI Channel_2) to turn the internal GR-55 Delay effect off.