VG-99 - Normal PU sound using GK-3 & VG-99

Started by Virtual Tone, February 26, 2008, 07:24:58 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Virtual Tone

Roland VG-99 Normal Pickup Level

If you want to hear your guitar's original pickups in the VG-99, you need to increase the Normal PU level within each patch. Use the following steps to adjust the normal pickup level for a patch;

1. Select a patch to edit.

2. Press the "A" button.

3. Press PAGE right until you see "MIX LEVEL." (Depending on the setup of the patch, this is on page 6 or 7).

4. Turn the F2 knob to increase the NORMAL PU level.

5. Press WRITE twice if you want to save the new setting to the patch.

6. Repeat the steps for any other patches that you want to have the original pickup volume heard in.



=============




I have been chatting with Sustainiac/Elantric for the past 1/2 hour or more and I'm still at a stump so.... let's see if anyone knows how to fix this one!

The question is this.... "How to get my guitar pickups to play ONLY (no COSM) when the Guitar / mix/ GK switch is set to the Guitar position!"

First of all... the COSM plays only when the toggle is set to the DOWN position (great).

THEN... BOTH the COSM and my guitar's pickups play together in the MIDDLE position of the toggle whereas I can blend the guitar PU with the COSM (so far so good).

However... the UP position is completely dead. 

BUT!!!  Here's the Mystery!  ???

It's ONLY completely dead when the 13pin is connected to the guitar!

If I connect the 1/4 inch to the Guitar input on the back WITHOUT the 13pin connected to the guitar... the UP position on the toggle works great!  :D

It even works when it is plugged into my Fender amp.

So... WHY does the 13pin cancel out?  :o

My settings on page 33 in the manual are correct.
 

  COSM
GTR  SW
   ON

   Mix Level
COSM   Normal
Guitar     PU
  25       50

Any suggestions?

V.T.  8)


Paresh

I think that's how it is for some units at least, me included. I haven't done the other tests you did (ie without 13 pin) but from the beginning the mags weren't working like they should. There were some old posts on the yahoo list about this but it didn't seem to affect too many users. I thought I remembered something about an improvement in the latest firmware update?
paresh

mos6507

Don't know if this will solve your problem but the VG-99 auto-detects the 1/4" input jack in the back if you have a cable inserted and will try to use that instead of the normal pickup signal running down the 13-pin jack, regardless of which cord actually has a live signal running through it.  This is NOT how it used to work on the VG-88.  The VG-88 just ignores the guitar input jack if it finds a live 13-pin jack and GK mode is set to auto.  So this new behavior can throw people off.  So before you start experimenting, make sure nothing is connected there.

I put an enhancement request in to have more direct control over when the 1/4" jack is used and how it could be mixed into the signal path with the normal pickup line on the GK rather it being just one or the other.  I think the hardware can do it.

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

chipstar

Does the behavior change when you set the GK Control to Auto or On?

later,
Chipstar

Virtual Tone

#4
Quote from: chipstar on February 26, 2008, 11:40:50 PM
Does the behavior change when you set the GK Control to Auto or On?

later,
Chipstar

You need AUTO to hear the guitar in the mix when the toggle is in the middle set to both the VG and the PU's.

That works fine... so does the UP postion on the toggle WHEN the 13pin is not connected. 

I can play a chord with the toggle in the up postition and the 1/4 inch connected to the guitar and then connected to the input into the VG99...
THEN while that chord is being played... if I plug the 13pin INTO the guitar, the 13pin CUTS OFF the signal!  :o 

If I pull the 13pin out of the guitar while the chord is still playing... then the chord I played can be still be heard!   ???

Personally I think it's a wiring problem from Switch.  I bought this new with the warranty. Maybe they'll upgrade me to a Wild IV or something (can't hurt to ask right?).  ;D

If not... I'll take the guitar down to SMASH (Sam Ash) and then play it through their VG99.  I am having a GK Kit put into another guitar at Sam Ash so I can make sure the tech guy knows what's going on with this Wild I and then make sure the 13pin and the toggle is wired correctly (if that is the problem with this Wild I).   ;)

V.T. 8)


fredo

To my understanding, what does the Guitar / Mix / Gk switch do :
Guitar : Sends the guitar signal to the GK cable + Sets the GK Volume to 0 (which can have strange behavior if you have assigned the GK Volume to a control other than COSM guitar volume !...).
Mix : Sends the guitar signal to the GK cable, without setting the GK Volume (actual value is set by the GK volume knob),
GK : Cuts the guitar signal from the GK cable, without setting the GK Volume (actual value is set by the GK volume knob).
This may explain some of the strange behavior...
Other thing to know : if a cable is connected to the guitar input of the VG-99, the normal guitar signal is taken from this cable instead of the signal from the GK cable.

Virtual Tone

Quote from: fredo on February 27, 2008, 03:12:37 AM
To my understanding, what does the Guitar / Mix / Gk switch do :
Guitar : Sends the guitar signal to the GK cable + Sets the GK Volume to 0 (which can have strange behavior if you have assigned the GK Volume to a control other than COSM guitar volume !...).
Mix : Sends the guitar signal to the GK cable, without setting the GK Volume (actual value is set by the GK volume knob),
GK : Cuts the guitar signal from the GK cable, without setting the GK Volume (actual value is set by the GK volume knob).
This may explain some of the strange behavior...
Other thing to know : if a cable is connected to the guitar input of the VG-99, the normal guitar signal is taken from this cable instead of the signal from the GK cable.

Thanks fredo for your input!

RE: Guitar : Sends the guitar signal to the GK cable + Sets the GK Volume to 0 (which can have strange behavior if you have assigned the GK Volume to a control other than COSM guitar volume !...).

Let me see if I can mess with this and see if the guitar will work.

After all... this IS a BRAND NEW DAY!  :D

V.T.  8)


chipstar

Nope, you need Auto. Mine works either way. Ha ha. In your face...

later,
Chipstar

Virtual Tone

Quote from: chipstar on February 27, 2008, 05:31:00 AM
Nope, you need Auto. Mine works either way. Ha ha. In your face...

later,
Chipstar

Mine works either way TOO Chipstaaaaaaaarrrr!!!!!!!!

On or Auto!

So... IN YOOOOO FACE!!!!

Billy Kaffadrin

#9
   Hi guys. Billy here, audio guy, musical initiate and all around seeker of knowledge.  I use a GK2 with my ESP Strat's output patched directly into it. 

    Right now my GK2a's  3 way switch does the following:

    "Guitar" position is the VG99  B Chain;  "Synth" Position is the VG99 A Chain, Middle is both A & B.  I see no options in the VG99 for changing these choices either. On either the A or B Chain you can use the COSM guitar model, the Guitar pickup/s audio, or a mix of both.  It depends on how loud you set the volumes of "COSM" or "Normal PU".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages.  Usually a COSM guitar setting of 50 is near the 100 setting of my strat's pickups.  I have been setting Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.  This way, I can switch between the normal guitar and one COSM guitar model with the 3 way switch - and the labeling on the GK2 is correct.  This makes me feel better somehow.   

GK-2 Volume pot

This is assignable of course on the System - GK - GKFUNC page, to control the A chain volume (foot volume A), B chain volume (foot volume B), or both (foot volume A&B).  You can also assign it as a balance know between A & B.  I'm tending towards it as the A Chain volume, since my guitar volume or my pedal board's volume pedal can turn my normal guitar (on the B chain) down.

     Also you do have to have the Mixer button turned on for a path you want to hear ... This has bit me a couple of times.  I would like to have my guitar out separate from the VG99's A & B audio chains.  But aside from not patching my guitar into the VG99 at all, this doesn't seem to be possible as far as I know.  It seems you have to choose between the A or B path - and that's it.

    I am open to further enlightenment on the subject.

Billy

Billy Kaffadrin

#10
   OK - upon further review...

    Yes when the GK2's 3 way is set to guitar, the "Mix Out" does see both the B Path (however that is set) and the Guitar shows up on the VG99's "Guitar output" jack.  (I have my guitar PU's patched through the GK2. Love the 1/8" cable...)  But the 3 way, when set to "Synth" does see both the A and B Paths - duh. Sorry for any confusion.

    [  Note to self, when changing the assigns for the GK2's volume pot, turn the pot all the way up before changing assignments, or you leave the previous (volume) level where it is (which may well be off.)  ]

    I find it convenient to as a reference point to set up A as a COSM guitar and B as my regular guitar's PU, so there is no overlap confusion.  The regular guitar is only hot when you switch to "Guitar" anyway, thus if the B path is regular Gtr. only it's muted when you have "Synth" Selected.  So I can switch from 12 string or sitar to my Stat comfortably that way.  Obviously some patches, which are very layered or use alternative tunings that doesn't work for. 


   Can anyone explain how to set up controllers (or footswitches), to turn the A and/or B chain switches on the VG99 on and off?

Thanks

Billy

PS   If Roland made a small 13 pin pedal that gave you just a few acoustic models and programmable alternate tunings, I would have bought that instead.   Poly Distortion, Poly Chorus, all the dumb 13 pin Boss pedals they made are pretty useless to most I think, but something like that I could stick on my pedalboard, play alternate tunings, sitar, dobro and electric slide models in open tunings with and not look like I came from outer space - well that would have been cool.  (Basically making your 13 pin guitar into a Variax or Fender VG guitar, only much much better...)

hupur

#11
[".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages.  Usually a COSM guitar setting of 50 is near the 100 setting of my strat's pickups.  I have been setting Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.  This way, I can switch between the normal guitar and one COSM guitar model with the 3 way switch - and the labeling on the GK2 is correct.  This makes me feel better somehow.   

Wow,Just bought my vg99 today and have been trying to get my normal pu's to work for about 2 hours.tried what Billy said and budda-bing it now works perfectly.thanks Billy
G&L Legacy special,Switch Ultima EQ with gk3,Switch Innovo IV signature,Switch Innovo III Custom,Switch Wild IV signature ,Switch Stein IV signature,Switch Oscar ,Fender Blues Deville,Roland GP8,VG99,GR33,V-amp2,Virtualizer 1024,sc50,yorkville elite 500p'vox ad100vth,behringer bg412

mos6507

Quote from: Billy Kaffadrin on February 28, 2008, 11:10:07 AM
Basically making your 13 pin guitar into a Variax or Fender VG guitar, only much much better...

Seems like a Variax transplant would be your best bet if you want just guitar models and alternate tunings.


Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

s0c9

Quote from: hupur on March 01, 2008, 10:30:51 PM
[".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages.  Usually a COSM guitar setting of 50 is near the 100 setting of my strat's pickups.  I have been setting Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.  This way, I can switch between the normal guitar and one COSM guitar model with the 3 way switch - and the labeling on the GK2 is correct.  This makes me feel better somehow.   

Wow,Just bought my vg99 today and have been trying to get my normal pu's to work for about 2 hours.tried what Billy said and budda-bing it now works perfectly.thanks Billy

I've been "playing" with my VG99 for about an hour... picked it up yesterday afternoon, right before I headed out for a Sat night gig. In bed @ 03:30am, so I've just now got around to unpacking, etc.

Did all the setup [think I may have to lower the GK2A under the low E as I have sensitivity on it set to 11 and it's STILL too HOT !!]... Also, can't get normal PU's to work when switching on GK2A. There's some KILLER patches... and obviously my experiences at the Banjo center [https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=319.0] were due to an incorrect setup or faulty unit !!

So.. to make sure I understand Billy's statement.....
This this a per PATCH setting not GLOBAL !! 
Since I need to be able to switch between synth and normal PU's... this means a change to every user patch ???

TIA guys... I'm sure I'll have lots more questions.

-Steve

s0c9

Duh... answered my own question !!1

LOL..  standard guitar PU's [using a GK2A anyways, set to AUTO] have to have the level set on EACH PATCH !!!

This - while giving flexibilty, is also a PITA to adjust...
I think this should be an enhancement... add a GLOBAL feature that allows standard PU's to be ON/OFF and then have a gain level, just like on each patch today. 
thoughts ??

Billy Kaffadrin

Quote from: mos6507 on March 01, 2008, 11:40:25 PM
Seems like a Variax transplant would be your best bet if you want just guitar models and alternate tunings.


      The Variax's don't sound near as good as the VG99, as far as I can tell.  And they don't do Sitar either and do nothing for me artistically, or simply as guitars. Also every Bass player using a Variax I have done live sound for hasn't sounded nearly as consistent or as good as a guy with just a bass and an amp - same thing with floor pods and the like, it send up my caution flags.  I had a G505 and a GR300 back in the day though, and that is a different story; Roland products have always been a cut above I think.

Billy

mos6507

Quote from: s0c9 on March 02, 2008, 01:14:34 PM
I think this should be an enhancement... add a GLOBAL feature that allows standard PU's to be ON/OFF and then have a gain level, just like on each patch today. 
thoughts ??

I am cool with the normal pickup being part of the patch.  I just don't like having to have dummy COSM settings and COSM enabled just so I can hear it!  The normal pickup level adjustment should be independent of COSM guitar.  It would be part of the channel, but it can be independently inserted into the FX chain.  I'd also want the same for the 1/4" jack.  Hopefully the VG-99 can bring in both signals at the same time.


Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

Elantric

#17
>Re Variax - And they don't do Sitar either


Actually the Variax does a good Sitar, and IMHO better steel string acoustics. But I agree - the electrics on VG-99 sound better - though there are more customization options on the Variax

On a technical basis - I can see why the Variax Bass would suffer. adding a DSP and A/D and D/A adds latency and limits the transient response. A Squier P-Bass will always sound better.

Even for guitars - I think with the VG-99 we trade tone for versatility. The VG-99 gets 90% of the tone of most things it emulates, and its easier than lugging 12 guitars and 12 amps to the gig/session.

But we are fooling ourselves if we think this sounds better "than the real deal".

Yesterday I had a Jam / Audition with a Dire Straits / Ry Cooder type band - my  rig was a Brian Setzer Gretsch 6120 w/ bigsby and TV Jones Filtertrons > Maxon opto Compressor > Boss DS-1> Vol Pedal > Echo Park  > Roland Cube-60 on the "AC-30" setting-  it does many things  I can not duplicate with my VG-99. Again it all depends on the level of expertise and speed and familiarity we are with our tools. I just landed a gig with a new band with this rig (in this paragraph) - as good as I know the VG-99, I'm not going to waste other band members time while they watch me trying to tweak my sound with all the VG-99 parameters.  I'm thankful they are there, and i use them in the studio, but for live - I end up using typical rigs, and apply my brain power to figure out what I should be playing to contribute to the song - not sweating over my para EQ  / mic sim, COSM PU, etc, etc,

Id rather be playing music  - especially if its an audition.   

 

s0c9

Wow !!  OH so, true...

Perhaps that last post should spawn another in the "Live Techniques" forum :)

Paresh

Re. Billy's set up:
I have been setting Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.

That means we can't use one of the cosm guitars...doesn't that defeat one of the main features of the 99? Am I missing something?
paresh

Elantric

You have 200 User patches - you will have to compromise and determine what to give up on every patch - as you can not "do it all" on every patch.

mos6507

Quote from: Paresh on March 03, 2008, 02:56:46 PM
Re. Billy's set up:
I have been setting Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.

I don't see why you have to isolate one channel for each of these unless you want separate FX channels.

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

Billy Kaffadrin

Quote from: sustainiac on March 03, 2008, 08:14:52 AM
>Re Variax - And they don't do Sitar either


Actually the Variax does a good Sitar, and IMHO better steel string acoustics. But I agree - the electrics on VG-99 sound better - though there are more customization options on the Variax>>

     I stand corrected - although if I plug a Variax into a guitar amp and a VG99 into a guitar amp, the Variax has always sounded pretty irritating to me.

>> Even for guitars - I think with the VG-99 we trade tone for versatility. The VG-99 gets 90% of the tone of most things it emulates, and its easier than lugging 12 guitars and 12 amps to the gig/session.

But we are fooling ourselves if we think this sounds better "than the real deal". >> 

     True.

>>Yesterday I had a Jam / Audition with a Dire Straits / Ry Cooder type band - my  rig was a Brian Setzer Gretsch 6120 w/ bigsby and TV Jones Filtertrons > Maxon opto Compressor > Boss DS-1> Vol Pedal > Echo Park  > Roland Cube-60 on the "AC-30" setting-  it does many things  I can not duplicate with my VG-99. Again it all depends on the level of expertise and speed and familiarity we are with our tools. I just landed a gig with a new band with this rig (in this paragraph) - as good as I know the VG-99, I'm not going to waste other band members time while they watch me trying to tweak my sound with all the VG-99 parameters.  I'm thankful they are there, and i use them in the studio, but for live - I end up using typical rigs, and apply my brain power to figure out what I should be playing to contribute to the song - not sweating over my para EQ  / mic sim, COSM PU, etc, etc,

Id rather be playing music  - especially if its an audition.  <<

      For auditions I'd use as few pedals as possible.  But I want to use the VG99 with my pedalboard and a tube amp, changing guitars models and tunings only.  I am hoping to avoid all the problems of having to tweak a bunch of digital domain stuff by using the pedal/tube amp chain, minimizing processing and following a normal guitar rig paradigm.  I do want to layer an acoustic model and my Strat though, and do 12 string/Nashville/raga tunings/open G tunings/ etc.  Sounds close enough for the convenience, and I sure can't afford Sonny Landreth's onboard computer system for changing tunings on the fly... It's like almost $4k.

Billy

Elantric

#23
Quote>and I sure can't afford Sonny Landreth's onboard computer system for changing tunings on the fly... It's like almost $4k.

That was the Transperformance tuning system
http://transperformance.com/

Sonny gave that up a few years ago - too heavy - lately he uses a custom Strat with a flat fret board and a Hipshot Triilogy tailpiece
$239

http://www.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=33
Our TMB3 is designed to give you endless possibilities of tuning exploration. Machined to retrofit your Strat. (Tremolo adapter block may be required). Includes installation instructions and hardware. Tuning chart included.

Here's how it works......
The Trilogy provides you with instant, smooth, and presise retuning of each string to three player-preset notes by means of specifically designed cam levers. Each string is independent of adjacent strings. (Tuning ranges of the 6th and 5th strings are approximately an octave; the 4th and 3rd strings are over a fifth; the 2nd string is approximately a fourth; and the 1st string is over a minor third.)


The german Tronical system arrived 3 years ago too-
http://www.tronical.com/products/powertune/

and Gibson lifted it for their Robot Les Paul.
http://www.gibson.com/robotguitar/

Virtual Tone

#24
Quote from: elantric on March 03, 2008, 08:14:52 AM
as good as I know the VG-99, I'm not going to waste other band members time while they watch me trying to tweak my sound with all the VG-99 parameters.  I'm thankful they are there, and i use them in the studio, but for live - I end up using typical rigs, and apply my brain power to figure out what I should be playing to contribute to the song - not sweating over my para EQ  / mic sim, COSM PU, etc, etc,

Id rather be playing music  - especially if its an audition.   


Hey Elantric

Do you ever take your VG-99 out for gigs once you now the type of sound the job requires and the VG-99 is all set up for those sounds?

Also... do you use your ToneLab LE for some gigs as well,?