GR-55 "Gig Rig"

Started by adagosto, August 10, 2015, 02:07:00 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

adagosto

Hello,

I'm curious how everyone is setting up their GR-55 "Gig Rig".  Reason I ask is this...

My son the band player.  I use the stuff at home and teach him how to use it.  So, I'm also the guy who needed to carry around the gear and set it up.  He gets all the glory, but its still fun!!

That said, I currently have two smallish pedal boards (one for front-on-amp pedals and one for the effect loop pedals).  That pretty much covers all the reasonable and most common uses.  That all runs into a Mesa Boggie Express 2x12.

Now I'm adding the GR-55 to the mix.  I'm finding it very difficult to use the GR-55 to replace the entire pedal board, but it would be nice to hear how you guys employ the GR-55 in the live setting.  For what it's worth, I do have a Line 6 M9 and it has MIDI in/out.  I'm not sure if that can be used with the GR-55 and combine the two to give me everything I need (within reason).  But anyway, I was thinking I might try a GR-55 rig and and Non-GR-55 Rig.  They may not always need the PCM tones depending on the setlist.

Thoughts?

admin


imerkat

This is it for me right here. There's no simple way to use a tube amp with the Gr-55 so it's modelling all the way now;


mbenigni

QuoteThere's no simple way to use a tube amp with the Gr-55 so it's modelling all the way now;

This is so true.  There are pros and cons to keeping a conventional guitar cab in your rig (the cons being weight and complexity, mainly) but the GR-55 kind of forces your hand by being so difficult to use in a hybrid rig.  If you're going to use a GR-55 (and expect to use synths, etc.) then it's best to just go FRFR across the board.

adagosto

I'm a little curious why you feel the GR-55 is not well suited for use with an amplifier?  Is is because of the poor Guitar Out characteristics?  Are there any other reasons?

The reason I ask this is because I have found JolietJake's work-around to be VERY effective in panning the Normal Pickups to the Left or Right Outputs channels and panning the PCM's towards the oposite side.  I currently am panning my Normal Pickups LEFT and the PCM's to the RIGHT.  Depending on what I'm doing with the Modeled Guitar tone, I'll either pan that into the amp or out with the PCM's.  In one case I have the Modeled Guitar as an acoustic tone and that sounds very good through a PA (Pan hard RIGHT) and another case I use a Rickenbacker tone and I pan that LEFT into my Mesa Boogie.  I find this setup makes the GR-55 and an amazing supplement to a tube amp.  I find I can use the GR-55 pre-amp modeled amp tones and run them into my Mesa on the clean channel OR I can turn the amp models off and let the Mesa dirty it all up.  This is how he did it and I now run all my patches for live performance this way.

Review it here if you're interested (special thanks to JolietJake and others in effort to explain this to me)
GR-55- Separate guitar out with effects (sort of)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622

Having said all that, for those of you who do use the GR-55 as a stand-alone tone generator, I'd be very curious how you all handle the limits of foot control assignments and having access to additional effects.  I totally understand that some very smart people have found creative ways to maximize the GR-55's assignment features, however, I need simplicity for my son.  You should have saw the smoke coming from his eye sockets when I told him that he could needed to use the foot pedal the pan different effects and use the guitar S1/S1 and CTL foot switch and be able to roll the midi volume to change tones and effects.  It was kinda comical.  But still...

What is the most practical way to be able to add multiple effects and add simple controller assignments?  I kinda assume the answer is a MIDI foot switch.

Elantric

QuoteI'm a little curious why you feel the GR-55 is not well suited for use with a Guitar amplifier?

Suggest read
Amplification recommendations for DSP Guitar Modeling systems
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=230.0

adagosto

Elantric and all,

I can now see where you are coming from.  So please allow me to clear this up slightly.

Yes, I totally agree 100% that in simplistic terms, the GR-55 and any synth/guirar modeler will have serious tone issues when used with a standard guitar amp.  I don't think you'll ever get that to sound right (with one small exception, hold that thought...).

This is why I like JolietJake's pan LEFT/RIGHT method of setting up patches.  In doing so, you play into the strengths of the system where the "real" guitar tone is routed to a "real" amp and the other tones are routed to an appropriate output device.  In my home I output the PCM's and acoustic guitar tones to a Genz Benz acoustic guitar amp.  It sounds pretty good.  In rehearsal and performances, I'll route those tones directly into the PA.

As mentioned earlier, the exception to this rule is if I'm modeling an electric guitar tone.  I find that the signal works very well through the Output of the GR-55 into my amp.

I would also say that if I did not come across JolietJake's method of panning, I would be woefully disappointing with the GR-55's ability to interact with a guitar amp.  Now this is not the exact intent of this thread, but I think its worth saying if anyone else feels the GR-55 does not play nice with a guitar amp, because although that's true in basic terms, there is a wonderful way round that problem (albeit your signals will be mono).

Anyway...

mbenigni

#7
Quote from: adagosto on August 11, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
I'm a little curious why you feel the GR-55 is not well suited for use with an amplifier?  Is is because of the poor Guitar Out characteristics?  Are there any other reasons?

The reason I ask this is because I have found JolietJake's work-around to be VERY effective...

Review it here if you're interested (special thanks to JolietJake and others in effort to explain this to me)

No need to review; I was one of those others.  :)  I've used the hard panning approach on and off for as long as I've had a GR-55, but doing so significantly limits the functionality of the unit.  Having to forego post-FX delay, reverb, and EQ to maintain separation cuts available effects roughly in half.  1 MFX and 1 MOD block can be very limiting, especially in a parallel structure patch where only one is applied to the guitar amplification path.

The problem with the GR-55 in a hybrid setup (i.e. guitar cab for guitar and FR cab for synths etc.) isn't just that the Guitar Output is too noisy, but that no guitar-specific effects can be routed to that output.  This is what paints us into the corner of using the L/R workaround and sacrificing half of the GR-55's DSP.

This isn't to say that the GR-55 can't be used effectively with a guitar amp.  Only that - if you want to use a guitar amp and a FR amp simultaneously, in order to get the best representation of guitar and synth voices respectively - you have to make a lot of compromises.

CodeSmart

This post got long and windy... ::), but here it is:

In our band the GR-55 is the synth guy (mostly PCM, sometimes with a splash of guitar modeling) always connected to the house PA in stereo.

Guitar sounds I create with GP-10 directly to the guitar amp. Not because GR-55 is bad sounding but I want to keep them logically separate to my stressed mind.

Blue box="Keyboard guy", Yellow box="Guitar Hero."

(With a MIDI controller to the GR-55 I might have gotten away with just the GR-55 but I'm very used to what I have)

WHY?
To me, playing mostly classic rock it's very convenient to keep these guys separate. I have separate volume pedal only for the GR-55 just beside the GP-10 volume control making it very easy to mix, fade in or out one or the other. I change patch on the GR-55 with guitar S1/S2 (with patches arranged to the set list) and GP-10 foot controls change patch on the GP-10. The GP-10 footswitches are always solo volume and delay, and an external dual footswitch to GP-10 is always chorus and harmonizer.

To facilitate the connection of several guitars and the two synths and the volume pedal I use my old GKMX-42 switcher (hoping to replace it with a GKMX-33 one day :P).

PATCHES
I don't use many patches in the GP-10: Clean, 12-String, Crunch and Distortion
For distortion patches I have a set of identical with only difference in harmonizer key.

In the GR-55 I have one patch row (with possible variants 1,2,3) for each song : where patch name=song name. This builds the set list. For some songs I don't use the GR-55 at all.

WITH THE ABOVE + drummer, talented singer/bass player and a second guitarist we manage to nail most recorded classic rock songs incl. synth sounds very close.

NEXT?
I've recently bought a SY-300 but I haven't figured out where it fits in. It does NOT replace the GR-55 PCM nor the GP-10 modeling.

Also recently got myself VG-99, great thing, but the blue and yellow boxes are pretty sturdy live. We'll see... ;D
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

adagosto

Hey guys, this is great.  mbenigni you summarized the issue VERY well.  Thank you.  The method I seems to be falling into is to pan the Normal Pickups (and in some cases the Model Guitar) hard LEFT and PCM's hard RIGHT.  I then run the LEFT Output to my pedal board where I can add all that stuff into the signal chain. 

So, this is how I get around the compromises you outlined very well above.  I think at a VERY minimum if I wanted to really par down the rig to the absolute minimum, I think I'd take the GR-55 and my Line 6 M9 along with an Expression pedal for the M9.  I'd run the M9 into the amp's effects loop.  This is the only way I can see getting all the tone options into the signal.  Still, that's a lot of gear.  The GR-55 was oh so close....  Typical Roland.

This then takes me full circle back to this thread title, "GR-55 'Gig Rig'".  You guys are not exactly telling me what I WANT to here.  Haha!  But still thank you for your thoughts.

Litesnsirens

I think ultimately we all have our tolerances with regards to what we can live with and without tone-wise vs. how much effort we are willing to put into set up time.

A lot of people have found a lot of creative ways to use the GR-55, some I have tried some I haven't and some I never would have thought of.

Simplicity seems to be a driving factor for most people but it changes depending on what end we want to put that simplicity on.  Is it setup, use, or both?  For some it's neither and I've read on here some elaborate rigs that I just couldn't fathom the hassle of setting up for every gig.

For me it's both, so the GR-55 generates all my guitar tones, and it goes straight to PA.  I use a different patch for every song, the expression pedal switch is always my solo tone the CTL pedal engages any different tone that I need ie; going from guitar to sax or whatever.  I use my ipad and an app called "set list maker" to pull up each patch for each song.  This isn't much of a hassle as I am using the app anyway for lyrics, so it's just one more cable connection. 

I will admit that I put extra time in at home on the front end dialling in tones but I enjoy it and it gets me playing and reviewing my parts as I audition the tones that I am using for those parts. The tones are tweaked a bit at practice for solo levels etc. but at the end of the day I don't feel I am compromising on tone at all. I've gotten so use to dialling in tones on the GR-55 as it sounds through my PA system that it's second nature now. 

The reality is that when I first started out, I had bread and butter guitar tones copied to the various song positions just to get me started but each of those tones has been tweaked over time to suit the each song more distinctly.  Most of the programming I do now is when we learn new songs, But I have a wealth of patches I can copy over as a jumping off point.

I've gone through so many amp and effects setups over the last 40+ years just trying to find the ultimate rig of simplicity and versatility, but now I can't imagine using anything other than the GR-55 for live use.  Unless of course they come out with a new improved version of it.

mbenigni

Quote from: adagosto on August 11, 2015, 05:03:40 PM
I then run the LEFT Output to my pedal board where I can add all that stuff into the signal chain. 

So, this is how I get around the compromises you outlined very well above.  I think at a VERY minimum if I wanted to really par down the rig to the absolute minimum, I think I'd take the GR-55 and my Line 6 M9 along with an Expression pedal for the M9.  I'd run the M9 into the amp's effects loop.  This is the only way I can see getting all the tone options into the signal.  Still, that's a lot of gear.  The GR-55 was oh so close....  Typical Roland.

Yeah, this is where the limitations inevitably lead if you want to run hybrid:  an external multi-effects pedal of some kind (in your case an M9, in CodeSmart's case a GP-10) to take up the slack.  An alternative to what you describe, with the M9 in your amp's loop, is to simply replace your pedal board with the M9, i.e. the M9 after GR-55 L, and in front of the amp.  Any variation on this theme is a capable, flexible rig.  In addition to replacing the effects you sacrifice by hard-panning the GR-55 outs, you also get effects tails during the GR-55's notoriously long patch switching delays.  The downside is that you sacrifice the "all-in-one" appeal that sold many of us on the GR-55 in the first place, and it's easy to start eyeing other specialized components that are superior in specific ways, eventually phasing out the GR-55 altogether.

So I wind up in the same boat as Litesnsirens:  when I use the GR-55, I use only the GR-55, and I run it straight to FR monitors.  For me, that's the GR-55 doing what it does best.  When I'm willing to set up a more complex rig with multiple sound sources, the GR-55 generally falls out of the picture altogether.

concordal

QuoteI can't imagine using anything other than the GR-55 for live use.  Unless of course they come out with a new improved version of it.

+1


vablows

This is why I use the Kemper.

I have the GR-55 in the stereo effects loop as an aux input, so it bypasses all amps/effects.

I can use it any way I please, and seamlessly integrate it in and out.

I only use cosm for 6 and 12 string acoustic guitars and a rickenbacker on American Girl that is blended in with Kemper tone.

One of the coolest things with this combo is doing tunes that require a capo, I do 3 of these and I just use the transpose function on the Kemper and manually set the patch on the GR-55 to match.

I have synth/horns/flutes/strings/whatever for nearly every song we do, and I always create the presets myself.

This has taken a very long time, but it is worth it, as my custom made presets are very close to the original sounds and the factory presets can't hold a candle.

I go direct from my guitar to Kemper, and direct from GK to GR-55.
Then go the FOH, always stereo.

For a 1 guitar band that covers a ton of ground sonically, this rig has been amazing for me and while not the easiest to program sometimes I cannot find a better alternative at this point.


adagosto

Ok guys I might be throwing a curve ball but tell me if this should be in a diffeent thread or where I should go to learn more.

First, what is a hybrid setup I have read about in this thread?  Is that what I'm doing?  Is that called a hybrid when you mix the GR-55 with other "rig toys" like a pedal board or is a hybrid when you run the GR-55 into an amp?  Or am I out in left field here?

The other thing is this.  I have noticed when I use the MIDI 13-pin cable by itself from the guitar and into the GR-55, the 7-pin does a good jov of carrying the guitars tone to the amp when I play clean.  However, when I play dirty and with a fair amount of gain, the tone falls off.  My son was playing this was and kept saying, "Where did all the tone go?  I need more tone".  So I disconnected the MIDI cable and wend direct out of the guitar's 1/4 mag output and into the amp.  THERE!!  The tone came back.

So it seems to me, the best way to run this GR-55 in terms of tone is to run two separate lines (one for the 1/4" guitar input to the amp and the other from the guitar's MIDI cable to the GR-55.  This however adds a lot of challenges to getting in and out of magnetic tone and PCM/Modeled tone.

Does anyone use their GR-55 this way and how have they dealt with the controllability problems associated with this setup?

Thoughts??

Elantric

#15
QuoteThoughts??

Agreed on all counts - and covered in the GR-55 FAQ

GR-55 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137


and read


* How to enable  the GR-55 "Guitar Output" jack:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4682.msg31583#msg31583

* Guitar Out Noise in Live Rigs
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10946.msg79626#msg79626

GR-55 guitar pickup input output fx loop Mod with Pictures!
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3994.0


GR-55 Examples
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=116.0

VGuitar Forums > VGuitar Central > Forum / Web Site Help / FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=23.0


How to Navigate VGuitarforums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4973.0


Click link below to view Advanced Search  in action

http://bit.ly/ZPdbIH

Sec-Def

I play bass in a band.
so I just plug the gr55  stereo out into the the house pa, inly thing I worry about is levels, there's so many gain stages  going on in the gr55, that you have to be vigilant on this. 
I call it "the voice of god sound" cuz it makes my bass come from behind and above everything.
how a bass should sound in a mix, as opposed to a messy amp-head-cab sound. 

gumtown

Quote from: Sec-Def on August 15, 2015, 02:25:47 PM
only thing I worry about is levels, there's so many gain stages  going on in the gr55, that you have to be vigilant on this. 
Best way to match the levels is at a gigging volume, preferably with the rest of the band.
When playing with the band, if you can mentally visualize the level settings, and take note after each played song, maybe write notes on your song set list, if levels need +5 or -5 to have the current patch mix better with the band.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Sec-Def

that's sorta what I do.
I use the ez edit option to change patch levels in rehearsals, and try to keep the master out at about 12 o'clock.
I'm a bit lost trying to change patch settings without  the floorboard, it truely is a game changer.
I wouldn't have bothered with gr55 if I didn't know it was there. so thanks for that.

my next project (after refitting my set up to use vga cables) would probably be a laptop-gr55 pedal board \ case thinggy. 
I would love having the gr run through ableton live, that would be another game changer to me.

Litesnsirens

Or.... As I do at rehearsals...take a half a second to dial in the right level,  ask the band to try a few bars of the song over again to test out the level... Then "write" "write".   Then you know it's all locked in for the gig...I do this with my solo boosts too....  I get others opinions too...  Of course I try to get as close as I can before the rehearsal so that its not every song but the little bit of work up front Is worth the effort.  To me, levels and tone among the band is as important as nailing your parts.

imerkat

Quote from: Sec-Def on August 15, 2015, 04:33:35 PM
that's sorta what I do.
I use the ez edit option to change patch levels in rehearsals,

Before i ranit through a studio compressor but now I use the Gk Volume. Comes more natural to me but then again I'm using the Gr-55 purely for synth.

Quote from: Sec-Def on August 15, 2015, 04:33:35 PM
I would love having the gr run through ableton live, that would be another game changer to me.

I haven't been able to use Ableton Live. I try to trigger things in Ableton from the GR-55 but also use it as a soundcard to output it to the PA but there is a big lag that way. i would need to bring another sound card and things start getting complicated very quickly  :)

Hotmamaandme

Quote from: mbenigni on August 11, 2015, 07:23:59 AM
This is so true.  There are pros and cons to keeping a conventional guitar cab in your rig (the cons being weight and complexity, mainly) but the GR-55 kind of forces your hand by being so difficult to use in a hybrid rig.  If you're going to use a GR-55 (and expect to use synths, etc.) then it's best to just go FRFR across the board.


Can you elaborate on this set up? It looks like all the outputs from the GR55 are going into the red box?


Im currently very unhappy with the sound/tone quality im getting out of my set up. I have a strat with a gk3 and a carvin with the graphtech system. I run the midi cable into the gr55 and both outs to DI boxes into a snake to the mixer boar (used in a church setting large board) then from the board into the house speakers. Im trying to mix both the mag pickups and the model tones but it dosnt sound good. Even by them selves they lack good clear tone.
"For His Glory" Psalm 33 & 150

mbenigni

#22
Quote from: Hotmamaandme on January 07, 2016, 09:14:10 AMCan you elaborate on this set up? It looks like all the outputs from the GR55 are going into the red box

You'll want to hear from imerkat - that's his rig.  But it looks like he's running L/R outs from GR55 to the Amplifire, to mix in synths (and effects applied to synths.)  There is another cable going to the Amplire's guitar in, so he can use its (superior) amp modeling.  I'm guessing that's coming from the GR55 Guitar Out (which would also allow him to use modeled guitars/ instruments) or directly from pin 7 of the GK cable (which would mean he's modded the GR55).  In the latter case he'd only get signal from his magnetic pickups (no modeled instruments) but the noise floor would be much lower.

Aside from having better amp modeling courtesy of the Amplifire, this rig allows him to add global post-effects to the GR55 signal, helping with gaps between patch changes.

Quote from: Hotmamaandme on January 07, 2016, 09:14:10 AMIm currently very unhappy with the sound/tone quality im getting out of my set up. I have a strat with a gk3 and a carvin with the graphtech system. I run the midi cable into the gr55 and both outs to DI boxes into a snake to the mixer boar (used in a church setting large board) then from the board into the house speakers. Im trying to mix both the mag pickups and the model tones but it dosnt sound good. Even by them selves they lack good clear tone.

At first I thought you said you were "very happy" and my response was STOP EVERYTHING AND PLAY.  :)

You're expressing dissatisfaction with an entire, complex signal path.  Try to break things down to identifiable components and find the weak spots.  (There may be several.)  Magnetic pickups, GR-55 guitar models, GR-55 amp modeling, patch programming (tons of variables here), impedance matching/ damping at the direct boxes, EQ at the board, etc. etc.  How much of that stuff do you need to eliminate in order to be happy with your tone, and when you start putting things back together, when does it begin sounding unacceptable again?

imerkat

Quote from: Hotmamaandme on January 07, 2016, 09:14:10 AM

Can you elaborate on this set up? It looks like all the outputs from the GR55 are going into the red box?

mbenigni pretty much nailed it on the head but i also have the Gk-3 pickup toggle between modelling and mag or both. The AmpliFire (red Box) works as a traditional amp for the guitar plus a DI box PA and direct monitor. For me, the Gr-55 lacks in the  internal preamp department so i could never get it to sound good on both the modelling and mag pickups. a Quick fix to clear up the tone is lower the mic level to 40-45 than use the EQ block as makeup gain.

Litesnsirens

For most of my straight guitar tones, I turn the mic sim to flat, then use the treble on the pre-amp model to brighten it up.  There are certain songs that I find the mic sim comes in handy in trying to nail the sound but for the most part I find the tone is more organic with the mic sim turned off (flat).