ROLAND - Internal GK-KIT-GT3 Installation questions

Started by chipstar, January 30, 2008, 01:40:21 PM

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burningyen

#250
I'm having a trouble with the 3-way mini-toggle on my Roland-Ready Strat.  Full disclosure: when I bought it in September I swapped the pickups and pickguard, which was a hair-pulling exercise, but it's been working fine since then.  I've used it at a bunch of rehearsals and a couple of gigs with no issues.  But Wednesday night when I put the mini-toggle in the "guitar" position, I got no audio signal through the 13-pin jack or through the Strat jack.  In the "mix" and "synth" positions everything worked fine.  Of course the next day when I took it to a local shop to get it looked at everything was working normally, so the tech just sprayed the switch with De-Oxit figuring it might just have been a speck of dust or something interfering with the contacts in the switch.  But then during the middle of my rehearsal that night it cut out again.  Before I open up the guitar, I'm wondering, has anyone had one of these switches go bad?  I'm hoping it's a loose wire/bad solder joint issue.  The switch wiggles a bit in its base, but that's been true since I bought the guitar and I assumed it was normal.  It doesn't wiggle any more than a Gibson 3-way pickup switch.  If I have to replace the switch, does anyone have a recommendation for a robust drop-in replacement?
Ben
www.burningyen.com
www.b-wayguitars.com

Elantric

#251
Only half dozen of the Factory VG-99 / GR-55 Presets have a working "normal Guitar PU" signal path.  You must build your own Patches that also include a working "normal Guitar PU" signal path on Both VG-99 And the GR-55. (its a big sore point for me that all the recent Roland 13 pin processors since 2007 the factory presets disable "Normal Pickup signal path by design)


* How to enable "Normal Guitar Pickups" and make the GK-3 three-way switch work with the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0




If its your Roland Ready Strat, and you confirmed you have already tried to enable the Normal PU's (see link above)  I suspect you may have a bad Output Jack

Its a switching type jack  - actually the same type used as an Input jack on old vintage Fender Twin reverb amp

When this Jack's switching elements go bad, the Roland Ready Strat's mini three way toggle may act non-functional.


This arrangement of using a switching output jack is unique to the the Fender Roland Ready  / GC-1 Strats  - and different than Roland Gk Internal kits.

The goal of the switching Output Jack is when the 1/4" Guitar cord is connected, this will  completely remove the entire Roland GK circuit from the normal guitar output path. 

* Remove the Jackplate and verify the contacts are clean on the SWITCHING OUTPUT JACK. If these contacts become dirty, much noise can be introduced or worse, complete failure of the normal guitar sound passing thru the 13 pin cable. Most Roland Ready Strats older than 5 years will suffer contact failure on this unique 1/4" switching jack. (Hint: This is the same switchcraft type switching jack as used on a 1960's Blackface Fender Twin Reverb Input Jack




burningyen

Thanks for the tips, it never would have occurred to me to look at that output jack.  I'll report back what I find.
Ben
www.burningyen.com
www.b-wayguitars.com

musicman65

I've had my mix switch fail. Its easily replaceable. I used a switch from Radio Shack since I needed one quick. The replacement switch is slightly larger and more durable.... Works fine.

bd

Elantric

#254
If you do replace the switch - you need a On/Off/ON Center Off type switch - can be either SPDT or DPDT

http://compare.ebay.com/like/260742624253?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

DPDT Center Off Submini Toggle Switch
Radio Shack #Model: 275-620

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062502

greekjgg

#255
Sorry, gr55...I'm doing a frankenstrat clone with the internal pickup....the Roland pickup is great, but no signal from my humbucker.....also....with this setup does the guitar input jack work separately if I just want to use the humbucker into a normal amp setup?

I should note that the external gk controller works fine, so I'm guessing I have a wire in the wrong place assembling the internal pickup.
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Elantric

#256
GR-55 Enable  Normal Pickup
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0

Realize you must re-program each GR-55 patch to support Normal PU. If you also want your 3way guitar/mix/synth switch to work also, then the GK Volume pot must also be mapped to Patch Volume or Tone Volume.

This can present problems because bulk of the GR-55 factory patches have remapped the GK Volume pot to other GR-55 parameters like Amp Gain etc. and this actually "breaks" the functionality of the 3-way guitar/mix/synth switch. It also breaks the functionality of the Roland US-20 A/B selector.

Design choices Roland made in 1988 are to blame.

Many GR-55 users work around these limitations and run two cables from the guitar.
* One 13 pin cable for Synth only
* One 1/4" guitar cord for normal guitar.
Use  a typical Guitar rig setup, and use separate floor volume pedals to select Synth or normal guitar.

Your local Car stereo shop sells flexible cable management overlays to minimize your stage cable spaghetti.

greekjgg

I don't have this issue when using my external roland pickup

1. With the internal, if installed correctly I should be able to use my stock humbucker sound through the 13 pin cable provided I have this enabled in each patch? Yes?

2. If scenario 1 is true, then can I still use my standard input jack running to a separate setup?

I seem to remember that the internal pickup setup is a bit different than the external in terms of capabilities? I typically use the Roland 100%, but I also utilize the stock pickup for backup in case the Roland has an issue I can plug in to the standard jack and run that to another effects board, etc.
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Elantric

#258
If the GK Internal was properly installed, the Normal guitar output sound should Always be available from the  Normal 1/4" guitar output jack on your guitar.
If not, talk to your installer, and have him refer to these threads.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg3281#msg3281

Quote1. With the internal, if installed correctly I should be able to use my stock humbucker sound through the 13 pin cable provided I have this enabled in each patch? Yes?

Correct.

But there are very few GR-55 patches that allow you to test this functionality without diving into the GR-55 and reprogramming patches to allow support of the Normal guitar sound via the 13 pin cable.

Your hardware may be perfectly functional, but appear not to work in the GR-55 because the necessary parameters to enable processing of the Normal guitar sound have been turned off by Roland as shipped by the factory.

But when you say
"My external GK-3 works, but my Internal GK Kit does not" leaves me to think you have a problem with your internal install.


Quoteseem to remember that the internal pickup setup is a bit different than the external in terms of capabilities

That's not the case, both external GK-3  and internal GK-Kit operate the same with identical signal flow and user controls.

The only advantage of the External GK-3 is you have external  1/4" plug access to the normal guitar signal  I/O  path in front of the GK-3 signal buffer, right on the guitar. One could mount Boss pedals right on the guitar and feed their output to the GK-3 1/4" Guitar Input, for "rage against the machine"  type effect if so inclined. I even heard of some folks with external GK-3's running "3 cables" from their guitars. This allows the Boss pedals mentioned above to be mounted on the floor.

rmarkuzy

I just installed internal GK3 kit and have the same result - no guitar output is provided through 13pin.
Maybe I connected the wires uncorrectly. Actually the right orientation of the switch is not visible from the scheme.
Do you have any hint which wire should go to which pin? (You could turn the swith 180 degrees, looks the same as on the scheme, but the internal wiring is probably different.)

Elantric


Oscope

#261
I am trying to Identify some of the Board connectors

They look like a Molex family but not sure ...can anyone help ??

Thanks in advance

Oscope

billbax

#262
Hi,

Not much chance of a parts list with the GR-55, as the service manual is out of bounds.  Spoke to Roland a few days ago, and they told me the service manual will become available when the unit is discontinued.

If you can't find a match with the headers and connectors, chances are they might be of a custom variety and originating from the far east (Obviously  ::)).  I take it you've looked through the normal electronic component suppliers?

Regards,

Bill


aliensporebomb

#263
Just a follow-up for those who re-read this thread. 

I took it to EMI in Minneapolis and the guy there did a bang up job.  EMI is Electronic Musical Instrument Repair but they specialize in repairing synthesizers, mixing boards, audio gear and they also have a sideline business selling guitar amps (and I even saw one or two inexpensive electric guitars there and you can get strings, picks, etc).  They also sell studio monitors, stage lighting and DJ gear.

So what the tech did did after getting everything going again is put a drop of loctite (a tiny one) on the underside of the nut that keeps the 3 position mag/gk+mag/GK switch stationary.  This way it won't swivel around again and if I should ever need to replace the switch I can do so without destroying the pickguard.

The whole problem started when the nut got loose and in tightening it repeatedly caused the switch to swivel around in the pick guard and those little wires are very thin and sort of brittle I'd say and several became loose.  Then the "slippery strat" incident occurred during the ill-fated outdoor photography of the innards occurred.

I want to thank Elantric for providing the schematic - that was crucial for the tech getting it right the first time and the tech actually followed up the repair and said to me "tell the guy who supplied you with the schematic thanks!".

This way if they run into others with the same problem they can help them out as well.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Glad you got that working again and the info here helped.

Oscope

Thanks Bill

My question may have been a bit miss leading
I was actually looking for the connector headers on the preamp board for the GK-Kit GT3, the permanent installation kit.

But I think your answer is still valid, in that there is no REAL part numbers.
I did look at the standard suppliers and just may get a few connectors to try.

The reason I was looking for the Part #'s was to avoid splicing wires in order to lengthen  :P, but I may be forced to do so.

Thanks for the reply though !

Oscope (Tom)

Elantric

#266
QuoteBut I think your answer is still valid, in that there is no REAL part numbers.

huh?

Try looking here first
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg3281#msg3281
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=6628

Review the Parts List, where all part numbers are listed.

For example here is the GK-3 Internal Pickup 8 pin connector for the internal GK-3 Preamp PC board.

You will locate :
"F3417191  B8B-ZR JST  P=1.5 8P CONNECTOR CN2 on Main Board"

this breaks down to

"F3417191"  =  Roland Part Number F3417191

"B8B-ZR JST" = J.S.T. Part Number "B8B-ZR"(LF)(SN)

"P=1.5 8P CONNECTOR CN2 on Main Board" = Description of part type and where used. This is a 8 pin White connector with 1.5mm pitch single Inline Connector sourced from J.S.T.
http://www.jst.com/

http://www.jst.com/pdf/JST_CrinpChart%20(English).pdf


Google Search on "B8B-ZR JST"

Gets you to  Digikey:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/B8B-ZR%28LF%29%28SN%29/455-1663-ND/926570

Digikey Part Number # 455-1663-ND
J.S.T. # B8B-ZR"(LF)(SN)



Elantric

#267
Review all the J.S.T. "ZH" family of 1.5mm connectors for the Internal Gk-3 Connectors
http://www.jst-mfg.com/product/pdf/eng/eZH.pdf

All Internal Gk-3 Connectors are listed here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=6628

The crucial bit of info is the fact that the Roland GK-3 uses 1.5mm pitch single row connectors.

Any 1.5mm pitch connector should also work as a substitute

Google search for "1.5mm pitch single row connector"
Tyco Connectivity 

http://www.te.com/catalog/minf/en/608



or

TTI
http://www.ttiinc.com/object/Tyco-Electronics-1mm-1.5mm-Centerline-Product-Family-Overview

or
Hirose (japan)
http://www.hiroseusa.com/images/2012_Connector_Selector_OptimizedA.pdf

Typical component sources

www.digikey.com

www.mouser.com

www.jameco.com





Oscope

#268
Elantric,

I looked around the forum (Damn newbies) but found nothing

Most of what you showing me is for the GK-3 and I am looking for the GT-3 Preamp board connectors
which measure a 2mm pin spacing, I'll have to check that again

I do owe you a HUGH Thank You !
.....as you certainly helped me out with this as I should be able to get the same in a 2mm pitch

I am still mapping out one of my guitars for the permanent install

This will really help and Thanks again !

Oscope

datsunrobbie

Quote from:  Oscope on June 03, 2013, 07:22:52 PM
Elantric,

I looked around the forum (Damn newbies) but found nothing

Most of what you showing me is for the GK-3 and I am looking for the GT-3 Preamp board connectors
which measure a 2mm pin spacing, I'll have to check that again

I do owe you a HUGH Thank You !
.....as you certainly helped me out with this as I should be able to get the same in a 2mm pitch

I am still mapping out one of my guitars for the permanent install

This will really help and Thanks again !

Oscope

Oscope,
You may be right, but I'd check that board again. I have personally installed 2 GK-KIT-GTs and the boards were identical as far as I could see. Also seemed to match the one in my RR Strat. I don't see any reason why Roland would go to the expense of making a different board for the GK-KIT-GT3 than they had for the internals they supplied to Fender and the ones they sold as the GK-KIT-GT.

With the right tools you can probably open up the connectors that came with the kit and replace the wires with longer ones. I have not tried it with these specific connectors, but I have done this with many similar connectors while tinkering with PCs.

Elantric

#270
When in doubt - use a pair of these and measure the pin to pin pitch of the connectors you seek

http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogIdentifier=2&partNumber=154461&langid=-1&cid=PS:GooglePLAs:154461&KPID=154461


Roland has used a mix of 1.5mm pitch and 2mm pitch headers / connectors on their guitar products 

But for "CN2" 8 pin Male Header for the hex pickup on the internal GK Preamp board (Internal GK-Kit-GT3 or External GK-3 ) , this is the part (Its 1.5mm pitch )


"B8B-ZR JST" = J.S.T. Part Number "B8B-ZR"(LF)(SN)
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/B8B-ZR-SM4-TF%28LF%29%28SN%29%28P%29/455-1687-6-ND/1963675
 

Oscope

QuoteWith the right tools you can probably open up the connectors that came with the kit and replace the wires with longer ones. I have not tried it with these specific connectors, but I have done this with many similar connectors while tinkering with PCs.

I have included a pic of the board

Yes that is option but I don't have all the crimping tools required to that but that leads to just going direct to the board (remove connector) and solder direct

Elantric..... Calipers.. That is exactly what l used to measure the pin pitch

The ONLY connector on that preamp board with a 1.5mm pitch is the HEX PUP connector (as you identified) ....All others are 2mm

That said.... the info you replied with earlier was very helpful in finding the potential connectors I was looking for

Here are all the connector Part numbers from DigiKey and hope someone else finds this useful


2mm Connectors and Mates for the GT3 Preamp Board

2 Pin Male  (DG # 455-1704-ND)  (JST # B2B-PH-K-S(LF)(SN))
2 Pin Female  (DK # 455-1165-ND) (JST #  PHR-2)

3 Pin Male  (DG # 455-1705-ND)  (JST # B3B-PH-K-S(LF)(SN))
3 Pin Female (DK # 455-1126-ND) (JST #  PHR-3)

7 Pin Male (DK # 455-1709-ND)  (JST # B7B-PH-K-S(LF)(SN))
7 Pin Female (DK # 455-1161-ND) (JST # PHR-7)

8 Pin Male (DK # 455-1710-ND)  (JST # B8B-PH-K-S(LF)(SN))
8 Pin Female (DK# 455-1189-ND)  (JST # PHR-8)


1.5mm Connectors and Mates for the GT3 Preamp Board

8 Pin Male  (DG # 455-1663-ND)  (JST # B8B-ZR(LF)(SN))
8 Pin Female  (DK # 455-1199-ND) (JST #  ZHR-8)

Oscope

Elantric

#272
Quotebut I don't have all the crimping tools required

Been there done that - the Futaba/Engineer Model PA-09 Crimpers work on these small crimp pins for the Roland / Line-6 Connectors
http://www.engineer.jp/index_e.html

http://engineer.en.ec21.com/offer_detail/Sell_Micro_Connector_Crimping_Tools--802761.html?gubun=S



http://www.precisehandtools.com/crimping/engineer-pa-09-universal-mini-crimping-tool-for-molex-jst-amp-hirose-jae-etc

The price varies
http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-PA-09-Micro-Connector-Crimpers/dp/B002AVVO7K

I bought mine here 3 years ago  - $59
http://store.iheartengineering.com/ihe-0a00-0001-0000.html
The price might seem high, but remember the "official" crimping tool for these connectors typically runs several hundred dollars.

Another option is locate a local advanced Radio Control or Robotic Control Hobbyist, as many of those guys seem to own a pair of Engineer PA-09 Crimpers in their tool crib, because all the servo motors use these same type connectors.

Also - Many third party Molex,TTI,Amp,Hirose,JST,JAL, Oupiin, etc, "2mm pitch single row connectors" are all cross compatible

Oscope

On the same path with the crimpers

But again ..you are such a wealth of information
I found them on Sparkfun for 60 bucks

I guess I'll look at making some purchases tonight

Thanks Elantric.....Again !

ammalato

Just bought a used Roland Ready start in like new shape (still has plastic on pick guard and trem cover as well as original stickers).  Just noticed the same issue as the original poster.  Synth position on the 3 way toggle works fine, synth/mag position works fine as well (can hear both out of the 13 pin) however the guitar/mag ONLY position yields NO sound out of the GR55 (or 13 pin as it would seem).  This is strange because the switching element in the 1/4" out put jack seems to work (i.e., with the toggle in the synth/mag position I can hear the guitar cut in and out of the mix when i plug/unplug an instrument cable into the guitar's output jack).  Any idea what this might be before I open this thing up and make more hassle for myself? 

Burningyen, how did you fix your issue?