Technology in Live Performance

Started by MarkFromHawaii, April 13, 2015, 01:05:41 AM

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MarkFromHawaii

I posted this same thread on the Fender Discussion Page:

I've been pondering this lately... A few years ago, I went to a conference at the Hilton Waikoloa Resort and checked out a duo at the lounge. It was a gal who sang with a superb musician who played both keys and guitars and also sang harmonies with the main singer. A bit of gear-related content here: He used what I think was a Roland VG-99 so he could do a lot of guitar modelling and ambient synth-like stuff on the guitar. For the keys he had a midi setup with pre-programmed ROM cards so he had the bass, and drums and other instrumentation as needed for his set list. On the break I talked to him and he said he did all the midi programming himself and had enough of a library to bring up some songs upon request.

Fast forward to today, with guitar synth technology, HD .wav file recording and storage (not to mentioned canned backing tracks for download or purchase), and of course, looping technology that enables a whole new way to perform live. I've seen some really creative use of Ableton looping software with off-board equipment to take live looping to a hybrid form between DJ and musicianship. Not my cup of tea genre-wise but I recognize the creativity.

I've gotten into guitar synth of late and have a Beatbuddy drum machine pedal on order and I'm thinking that I can do a duo or even a solo act by myself with certain limitations. I still feel that it would be "cheating" to pre-record bass, horns, strings, harmonies, for example, that would be midi-synched with songs. But I fully realize that this is technically possible. I guess there's a voice inside me saying that there's a boundary that I shouldn't cross with technology.

What do you all think?
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Majiken

To me as a spectator, the question is who appears to be in the driver's seat: the performer or the machine? Watching somebody nervously twiddling knobs is not my idea of music as an art form, but when the person knows their gear well enough to make the music flow and at least gives the impression that they could bring the set to conclusion if the power shuts down I accept and respect what they are doing. IMO many people doing even simple looping don't get it "stage" right, trying to impress with technology rather than entertaining- that's the reason why I am practicing realtime looping right now, but haven't incorporated it into my live set yet.

While I am proud to be able to do a 4-hour show with just one guitar and without amplification if necessary, the bottom line for me is that anything goes that enhances your ability to entertain your audience. If it feels right, go for it :-D!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

FreeTime

I know of at least one musician that made an ok/good living playing solo gigs with backing tracks. The equipment we have now lets us fill the void between guitar-oke and purely organic playing.

When I'm playing live I like to dumb it down as much as possible while being able to blare out a horn stab here and there or whatever sonic serendipity might occur. It depends a lot on how many people are playing with me, when there are more I do less; I make good use of the GR55 media player to play .wav files just here and there, not all the time.

Drummers generally hate loopers while a percussionist might be ok with it.

stratrat

I don't know about other locations (and I'm sure it will vary by location), but here the whole playing with backing tracks thing has died the death. Majiken is right - people (both punters and venues) don't mind technology to enhance a performance, but they don't want the tech to do the performing. When there are only one or two players on stage they would rather hear a stripped down arrangement than a huge backing band. On the other hand, they do like seeing how creative you can be with tech.

So backtracks are out, while loopers, harmonizers/octavers and various Akai controllers are in (although I predict the looping thing will probably die out soon - it's become too common). Small ensembles and solo artists needing drums are more likely to be lugging around a kick drum and pedal for one member to stomp on during the performance than using a drum machine or sequencer.

Where I am managing to carve a niche is using the tech to fill out the sound and be the bassist, drummer guitarist and synthist all at the same time, but still actually be playing everything (with a few compromises). Guitar-wise, it takes some creative arrangements sometime, but isn't too far from what classical and Latin guitarists do. But there are also independence issues between your limbs - some things that are simple to play on drums or guitar become difficult when you have to play them together.

One downside is that if you do it all well enough, it flies over people's heads (way too many people  hear with their eyes - even musos) and they assume you're using backtracks anyway. I've worked out how to gradually introduce the tech slowly so with each new thing the audience are craning their necks, wondering how you are doing it (it's become part of the performance).

On the other hand, I have this recurring nightmare that I'll end up as the modern version of the old one-man-band, walking around with a drum on my back and cymbals between my knees, a harp and a kazoo in a harp brace. And a damn uke... ;D

Spaces caper

I agree Majiken.  Confidence and actual knowledge of your gear is key for a successful performance.  And versaility with your playing is entertaining as well as useful in unforeseen circumstances.

Live looping or coordinated performance is a lot like spinning plates and requires an increasing level of concentration as you add more plates.  It's up to the performer to know how far they can go before the whole thing is unmanageable. 

But I have a lot of respect for those who create unique live performances.  Good luck!

JolietJake

#5
My personal findings are that nobody gives a damn. There will always be some snooty "musician" in the crowd who will delight in pointing out to everyone exactly everything your are doing (or more likely NOT doing), but 99.9 percent of the people you play to simply do not know or care AND THAT IS THE TRUTH.

Can you really differentiate what the difference is between stepping on a "beat buddy" to provide a rhythm and playing an MP3 backing track. Does one make you a musician and the other not? I think a lot of this is psychological and obviously related to confidence. You can't beat having a bunch of other people around you on stage, whereas its pretty lonely up there on your own. I do both, I play in a 4 piece pop/rock covers band and I play solo/duo gigs with backing tracks played through the GR-55 USB and as far as I'm concerned both are legitimate performances.

I think that its more to do with targeting yourself to the correct venues. It's pointless trying to get into a venue that generally has 5 piece heavy rock bands to head-banging crowds, but it gives smaller venues the option of putting on "live" music at minimal cost/space/volume levels and I have never noticed any reluctance from venues to embrace this.






gumtown

It's a fine line between having backing tracks, being midi or pre-recorded, or just calling it Karaoke.

There is the new Digitech TRIO pedal you might like, it listens to your chord arrangement and magically plays drums and bass along to what your playing.


or take a more lo-tech approach
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Spaces caper

Quote from: stratrat on April 13, 2015, 02:11:40 AM
I don't know about other locations (and I'm sure it will vary by location), but here the whole playing with backing tracks thing has died the death. Majiken is right - people (both punters and venues) don't mind technology to enhance a performance, but they don't want the tech to do the performing. When there are only one or two players on stage they would rather hear a stripped down arrangement than a huge backing band. On the other hand, they do like seeing how creative you can be with tech.

So backtracks are out, while loopers, harmonizers/octavers and various Akai controllers are in (although I predict the looping thing will probably die out soon - it's become too common). Small ensembles and solo artists needing drums are more likely to be lugging around a kick drum and pedal for one member to stomp on during the performance than using a drum machine or sequencer.

Where I am managing to carve a niche is using the tech to fill out the sound and be the bassist, drummer guitarist and synthist all at the same time, but still actually be playing everything (with a few compromises). Guitar-wise, it takes some creative arrangements sometime, but isn't too far from what classical and Latin guitarists do. But there are also independence issues between your limbs - some things that are simple to play on drums or guitar become difficult when you have to play them together.

One downside is that if you do it all well enough, it flies over people's heads (way too many people  hear with their eyes - even musos) and they assume you're using backtracks anyway. I've worked out how to gradually introduce the tech slowly so with each new thing the audience are craning their necks, wondering how you are doing it (it's become part of the performance).

On the other hand, I have this recurring nightmare that I'll end up as the modern version of the old one-man-band, walking around with a drum on my back and cymbals between my knees, a harp and a kazoo in a harp brace. And a damn uke... ;D

Excellent analysis stratrat and I would love to hear your stuff!  I'm in a similar boat and have also found the gradual introduction of layers is the best way to avoid those pessimistic assumptions of backing tracks.  The clanking one man band image is one I have thought of many times ;)

Are you looping or literally playing live?  I have become fairly adept at using my headstock to hold out pedal tones on my synth while playing chords or licks (and occasionally quarter note bass lines if I'm strumming) but even adding vocals after that point is quite a challenge. 

Spaces caper

Quote from: JolietJake on April 13, 2015, 02:40:48 AM
My personal findings are that nobody gives a damn. There will always be some snooty "musician" in the crowd who will delight in pointing out to everyone exactly everything your are doing (or more likely NOT doing), but 99.9 percent of the people you play to simply do not know or care AND THAT IS THE TRUTH.

Can you really differentiate what the difference is between stepping on a "beat buddy" to provide a rhythm and playing an MP3 backing track. Does one make you a musician and the other not? I think a lot of this is psychological and obviously related to confidence. You can't beat having a bunch of other people around you on stage, whereas its pretty lonely up there on your own. I do both, I play in a 4 piece pop/rock covers band and I play solo/duo gigs with backing tracks played through the GR-55 USB and as far as I'm concerned both are legitimate performances.

I think that its more to do with targeting yourself to the correct venues. It's pointless trying to get into a venue that generally has 5 piece heavy rock bands to head-banging crowds, but it gives smaller venues the option of putting on "live" music at minimal cost/space/volume levels and I have never noticed any reluctance from venues to embrace this.

I feel you can absolutely have a legitimate and entertaining performance with backing tracks, but as a musician and listener, I am much more impressed and entertained by a live (or mostly live) player. 

Spaces caper

But to be perfectly honest, you are correct JoiletJake, most people don't tend to notice or care.  Just get em dancing and you're good.

Spaces caper

Quote from: gumtown on April 13, 2015, 02:44:42 AM
It's a fine line between having backing tracks, being midi or pre-recorded, or just calling it Karaoke.

There is the new Digitech TRIO pedal you might like, it listens to your chord arrangement and magically plays drums and bass along to what your playing.


or take a more lo-tech approach


That is cool stuff right there, love the innovation, reminds me of the guy who played chords and strummed with his feet!

Sorry for the 4 posts in a row.

GraemeJ

Quote from: JolietJake on April 13, 2015, 02:40:48 AM
My personal findings are that nobody gives a damn........99.9 percent of the people you play to simply do not know or care AND THAT IS THE TRUTH.

Yes, but not the whole truth.

Much of this technology use is driven by the venues, not the artists.  Here (in Spain) many venues will simply not pay enough to support a four/five piece outfit, the only solution for a musician trying to make a living is to work as a solo/duo act - even trios are struggling to get a decent financial return for their efforts.  I run a six piece and have to really scrabble to find enough work to make it worthwhile - and we certainly can't make a living from it.

Virtually every muso I know hates this, they would much rather work with a 'proper' outfit, but the venue operators know the public are not that concerned and the bottom line is always at the top of their list.

JolietJake

#12
Quote from: Spaces caper on April 13, 2015, 03:00:05 AM
I feel you can absolutely have a legitimate and entertaining performance with backing tracks, but as a musician and listener, I am much more impressed and entertained by a live (or mostly live) player.

With all respect Spaces Caper when you say "but as a musician and listener" this kind of proves my point. Musicians notice things like this more and tend to be more critical, I'm ashamed to say I do it myself too. I have watched some solo act playing to backing tracks and just couldn't help commenting that "he's hardly playing anything you know" to the non muso's in the group, and was promptly met with "is he" just before they all got up to dance and left me sitting on my own safe in the knowledge that "I knew best".

I like playing in a full band, there is really nothing else like it in music. However I also like not having to cancel at the last minute because "the bass player has to take his kid to football practice", "The drummer has to spend the weekend at his girlfriends parents", "the singer has a cold", etc.
When you are a solo musician you don't have to rely on everyone turning up, can get the backing "just the way you want it", you can practice in a bedroom with headphones, You can play virtually any venue where there is just enough space to stand up, etc.

Rather than try and create an entire set of looped songs (which may seem a bit daunting at first) why not do both, create a set of Backing tracks and loops and see what you prefer doing, or what goes down best and just evolve from there.
Basically, just do what's fun for you. Give it a try and if its not for you move on and try another approach.


gumtown

You could record your own playing of drums, bass, and what ever else on a multitrack recorder/DAW,
then use that for backing tracks,

you are technically playing all parts, but not all at the same time.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stratrat

Quote from: Spaces caper on April 13, 2015, 02:50:18 AM
Are you looping or literally playing live?
All live - I've consciously avoided looping. I play fingerstyle, and pick out bass and treble parts separately. Think of the way many solo fingerstyle guitarists (like Igor Presnyakov or Michael Chapdelaine) do instrumental covers of songs and then imagine that with modelled bass on the bass strings and synth keys on the trebles.

Also, I usually work with vocalists, and that means the melody is usually sorted so I can leave that out and rather throw in chords and triads on the treble strings. I have a lot of flamenco and Latin DNA in my playing style, so I'm good at syncopated bass and rhythm lines. Throw in some time synched delays (often used to delay an instrument, rather than as echo) and you can be the entire rhythm section and fill out some serious sonic space. An added bonus is I don't have to worry about the drummer locking in as that's me too, so even if things go awry (and they do), I can easily recover - usually without the audience noticing.

Where I struggle is with solos - it's nigh on impossible to do a lot of stuff while you're holding down the rhythm section by yourself. The polyrhythms between solo guitar and rhythm section are usually too complex for my level of independence. So it's more likely to be rhythmic or melodic stuff than single note solo things.

QuoteI have become fairly adept at using my headstock to hold out pedal tones on my synth while playing chords or licks (and occasionally quarter note bass lines if I'm strumming) but even adding vocals after that point is quite a challenge.
I hear you! Vocals are my weak point, which is why I prefer working with singers. I'm working on it and am now confident enough to do backing vox, but having a dedicated singer means I can back off if/when I'm struggling. I added a VoiceLive pro to my rack recently and that's really helping with the vocals - I find the always spot on harmonies (which follow the guitar chords) are helping me keep my natural voice part on pitch.

And yeah... I agree the smaller venues/stages and lower fees are driving the tech. But the creative guys are doing what they always do - being creative. I always say that the key to tech is not worrying what it can't do: instead figure out what it can do and how to use that to achieve what you need. Or even how to use it to your advantage. Adrian Belew said something similar: he finds out what a piece of gear does that it was not supposed to do (i.e. how it glitches in its own unique way), and then figures out how to use that in a musical context.

thebrushwithin

Couldn't agree more JoiletJake. Playing and singing with backing tracks, made in my home studio, has made me a very good living for now over 16 years. Artistically, I truly miss interacting with other live musicians, but in my hometown, I make more in one hour than a typical band member makes in four hours. Most band members I know literally have to play in 2 - 5 bands, just to scratch out any sort of living wage, or be a weekend warrior doing tribute band stuff, when they are off their 9 to 5 jobs. For me, the bottom line is that technology is so invasive in everyone's life, that even live music, is but another sensory experiential commodity. Just ask yourself, who cares about how the code was written in that fun app you are using? The point is, pretty much nobody cares about the process, only about " do I like the sound I am hearing?" Even when playing in bands, I learned a long time ago, never play for other musicians, as their response will usually misdirect you from what matters to an average listener, who pays your bills. My artistic satisfaction comes from recording original music, not playing covers.

MusicOverGear

#16
Here's IMHO of a great example of playing live with tracks



Obs it's been mixed by a producer who is every bit as bad as the cats playing, but still I think it shows how you can have an aux keys player who is a robot and it doesn't detract from the brilliance of the performance.

BTW I wouldn't be surprised if they did stuff like doubling vocals/harmonies after the fact, but they do use the same tracks when they play live, with similar effect. So at some point they are playing with tracks. Also if you beat map any of their famous arrangements, they line up perfectly to a grid, so they are definitely on a click.

Spaces caper

Quote from: JolietJake on April 13, 2015, 03:42:07 AM
With all respect Spaces Caper when you say "but as a musician and listener" this kind of proves my point. Musicians notice things like this more and tend to be more critical, I'm ashamed to say I do it myself too. I have watched some solo act playing to backing tracks and just couldn't help commenting that "he's hardly playing anything you know" to the non muso's in the group, and was promptly met with "is he" just before they all got up to dance and left me sitting on my own safe in the knowledge that "I knew best".

I like playing in a full band, there is really nothing else like it in music. However I also like not having to cancel at the last minute because "the bass player has to take his kid to football practice", "The drummer has to spend the weekend at his girlfriends parents", "the singer has a cold", etc.
When you are a solo musician you don't have to rely on everyone turning up, can get the backing "just the way you want it", you can practice in a bedroom with headphones, You can play virtually any venue where there is just enough space to stand up, etc.

Rather than try and create an entire set of looped songs (which may seem a bit daunting at first) why not do both, create a set of Backing tracks and loops and see what you prefer doing, or what goes down best and just evolve from there.
Basically, just do what's fun for you. Give it a try and if its not for you move on and try another approach.

Yes, I know, I immediately posted "you are right" correction after my first response to acknowledge this.

But really, we're both right, because enough people are musicians now requiring more innovation to entertain a larger audience.  Backing tracks might do it for you, but not for me.  So while I'm happy you might be shaking it on the dance floor, I'm going to figure out how to make em all shake and impress the "snooty" listeners simultaneously. 

Spaces caper

Quote from: stratrat on April 13, 2015, 04:38:26 AM
All live - I've consciously avoided looping. I play fingerstyle, and pick out bass and treble parts separately. Think of the way many solo fingerstyle guitarists (like Igor Presnyakov or Michael Chapdelaine) do instrumental covers of songs and then imagine that with modelled bass on the bass strings and synth keys on the trebles.

Also, I usually work with vocalists, and that means the melody is usually sorted so I can leave that out and rather throw in chords and triads on the treble strings. I have a lot of flamenco and Latin DNA in my playing style, so I'm good at syncopated bass and rhythm lines. Throw in some time synched delays (often used to delay an instrument, rather than as echo) and you can be the entire rhythm section and fill out some serious sonic space. An added bonus is I don't have to worry about the drummer locking in as that's me too, so even if things go awry (and they do), I can easily recover - usually without the audience noticing.

Where I struggle is with solos - it's nigh on impossible to do a lot of stuff while you're holding down the rhythm section by yourself. The polyrhythms between solo guitar and rhythm section are usually too complex for my level of independence. So it's more likely to be rhythmic or melodic stuff than single note solo things.
I hear you! Vocals are my weak point, which is why I prefer working with singers. I'm working on it and am now confident enough to do backing vox, but having a dedicated singer means I can back off if/when I'm struggling. I added a VoiceLive pro to my rack recently and that's really helping with the vocals - I find the always spot on harmonies (which follow the guitar chords) are helping me keep my natural voice part on pitch.

And yeah... I agree the smaller venues/stages and lower fees are driving the tech. But the creative guys are doing what they always do - being creative. I always say that the key to tech is not worrying what it can't do: instead figure out what it can do and how to use that to achieve what you need. Or even how to use it to your advantage. Adrian Belew said something similar: he finds out what a piece of gear does that it was not supposed to do (i.e. how it glitches in its own unique way), and then figures out how to use that in a musical context.

I like the way you think, let me know if you post some music!

JolietJake

Quote from: Spaces caper on April 13, 2015, 07:43:59 AM
Yes, I know, I immediately posted "you are right" correction after my first response to acknowledge this.

But really, we're both right, because enough people are musicians now requiring more innovation to entertain a larger audience.  Backing tracks might do it for you, but not for me.  So while I'm happy you might be shaking it on the dance floor, I'm going to figure out how to make em all shake and impress the "snooty" listeners simultaneously.

I agree, I think we are both right, but only because there are no wrong answers here. I still feel that if you enjoy it, and people like listening to you, then why not?

This thread has actually got me thinking, and one interesting thing that I hadn't considered until responding is that I create my own backing tracks for when I do my solo work, and I seem to take a very minimalistic approach to backing. Rather than 32 tracks with every note of the original captured I always seem to replicate a 4 piece band doing the song. I will record a drum track, a bass track and if required a keyboard track and that's it. Even if there is clearly 2 or more guitars on the song I stick to playing all the guitars live. If this is not possible then I prefer not to do the song.
It would be easy to download a midi or karoake version track that has 4 guitars, percussion, multiple synths etc, but for some reason it seems to sound more "authentic" when you are simply "filling the gaps" with pre recorded backing.

Spaces caper

Quote from: JolietJake on April 13, 2015, 08:44:39 AM
I agree, I think we are both right, but only because there are no wrong answers here. I still feel that if you enjoy it, and people like listening to you, then why not?

This thread has actually got me thinking, and one interesting thing that I hadn't considered until responding is that I create my own backing tracks for when I do my solo work, and I seem to take a very minimalistic approach to backing. Rather than 32 tracks with every note of the original captured I always seem to replicate a 4 piece band doing the song. I will record a drum track, a bass track and if required a keyboard track and that's it. Even if there is clearly 2 or more guitars on the song I stick to playing all the guitars live. If this is not possible then I prefer not to do the song.
It would be easy to download a midi or karoake version track that has 4 guitars, percussion, multiple synths etc, but for some reason it seems to sound more "authentic" when you are simply "filling the gaps" with pre recorded backing.

I do agree, if people are happy, then success is had!  I can appreciate your approach and it sounds like you are passionate about creating a live performance where you can.  You've got me thinking too, perhaps a little backing can ease the stress of the the performance without really taking away from the entertainment. 

BackDAWman

Quote from: gumtown on April 13, 2015, 03:51:55 AM
You could record your own playing of drums, bass, and what ever else on a multitrack recorder/DAW,
then use that for backing tracks,

you are technically playing all parts, but not all at the same time.

That's what I do. It is a hell of a lot of work! More than just getting your vocal and guitar parts together for band.

MarkFromHawaii

Thank you all for your input.  My apologies for not following up; I've had some personal matters to take care of.  Recently I purchased a Beatbuddy drum pedal.  I'll post a few thoughts on this later.  Cheers!
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

HCarlH

Quote from: JolietJake on April 13, 2015, 02:40:48 AM
My personal findings are that nobody gives a damn. There will always be some snooty "musician" in the crowd who will delight in pointing out to everyone exactly everything your are doing (or more likely NOT doing), but 99.9 percent of the people you play to simply do not know or care AND THAT IS THE TRUTH.

THIS.

I laugh at those who think spending 5 minutes to set up a loop is (and which bores me silly if I have to watch someone doing that in order to hear music) somehow more genuine than using a backing track. You either record it before hand or in front of the audience. It's the same. I'll take the backing track every time.  The goal is to entertain...not show off how clever with gear you are which the audience doesn't care about.
GR-55 (or) Fishman TP + Kemper Profiling Rack -->> 
QSC K10 -->> FOH
Fender Squier Stratocaster Bullet (w/GK3), Ibanez AM93 (w/FTP pickup),  Stratocaster (w/FTP pickup)

Telecaster, Charvel SoCal ProMod, Gibson Les Paul, PV Wolfgang,

Jim Williams

After reading all the thoughts and comments I have reached one conclusion..... It does not matter what you have as long as you play from the heart and give the best show you can with what you have. I used to use my VG-99 with my laptop  with a bunch of VST's for synth sounds and back tracks with my band and the audience was wowed and loved every minute of it. I also brought my acoustic guitar to an open mic and played "I'll Be" and the small audience was equally impressed without the use of any hi-tech gear. It is not in the equipment, it is in your heart hands and talent. Don't forget what you fell in love with..... Playing the guitar, the feel of flesh metal and wood. That seems to be the common thread for all of us and all that matters is the music and how you show that to the rest of the world. Computers, midi and guitar modeling layered with loppers and backtracks can only serve to enhance what was already the inside your soul.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.