Are Guitar-Synths a threat to Keyboardists?

Started by Elantric, April 23, 2015, 12:28:21 PM

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Elantric

QuoteThe keyboard player I'm playing with tonite gets all irritated when I use an organ sound - I may use this one tonite LOL

Lets face it, All Keyboards players get very irritated with just about everything we discuss here !

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11430.msg83695#msg83695
I recently played on the same bill with U2's Keyboard tech ( Terry Lawless)-
http://forum.atu2.com/index.php?topic=13566.15
(who lives locally and performs in a few cover acts to maintains his chops.)  When we chatted after the gig, I told him about VGuitarforums (thinking I might open a path of communications with "The Edge") - but he was rather annoyed to hear about our forum - as he "does the math" and figures our "Guitar Synth" world is in direct conflict with his "Keyboard Synth" world, and gave me stern stare like I was threatening his career.

So there are real glass ceilings with encampments of active "sandboxing" among Pro Keyboardists who feel a bit threatened when you pursue this "Guitar Synth"  quest we all are on.

Headless68

I have some good friends who are keyboard players - their views on my gear and us as guitarists.....
1. They hate guitar based music :-)
2. They are very interested in my gear they can midi into (only)
3. When I record with them the guitar is very very low in the mix :-)
4. They hate the fact I can midi into their gear - ha haaaaaaa


Rhcole

One of my BEST FRIENDS EVER was a terrific keyboard player. 20+ years ago I had a crap guitar controller that could kinda' sorta' play MIDI through his keyboard. When I proved to him that it could actually work he reacted with a combination of horror and disgust. I thought he would consider it to be unbelievably cool.

Keyboard players are the elves and guitar players are the dwarves. Elves don't like it when dwarves put on pointy ears and stand on stilts.

Kevin M

There are simply too many GREAT keyboardists out there whose talents refute these arguments. Rick Wakeman and Jordan Rudess are two that come to mind. Both of these guys played/play alongside stellar guitarists.

Pin

Quote from: Kevin M on April 23, 2015, 02:19:52 PM
There are simply too many GREAT keyboardists out there whose talents refute these arguments. Rick Wakeman and Jordan Rudess are two that come to mind. Both of these guys played/play alongside stellar guitarists.

Indeed, two guys who really are great players and no messing.

thebrushwithin

#5
Goes both ways. Jan Hammer LOVES playing with top guitarists, and does his best to emulate guitar style tones. To me, there is a pretty healthy competition between guitarists and keyboardists already, and since most of the synth products at Musikmesse seem aimed at retro analog, lots of modular, etc., this SY300 once again gives guitarists the potential to stay "contemporary" with our keyboard brothers and sisters. The SY300 is not exactly analog, but it sure isn't a rompler, which has always tempted guitar synth folks to emulate pianos and the like, which I am quite sure never threatened any solid keyboardists. Our previous, pre-rompler guitar synths tracked terribly - again, snickers from guitarists and keyboardists alike. If this thing actually has all the normal tools, as the Moogs, Prophets, and Oberheims, etc., then I believe those of us who are really patient, and creative will finally become less of a threat, and more of a stimulus for some interesting interplay between the blurred lines of plastic keys and steel strings. Most keyboardist don't take guitar synthesists very seriously- (till now?). We'll see.

shawnb

Yes.   Think how many cover bands get by without a keyboard because the guitarist has a GR-55...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

FreeTime

Quote from: Rhcole on April 23, 2015, 02:09:05 PM
Keyboard players are the elves and guitar players are the dwarves. Elves don't like it when dwarves put on pointy ears and stand on stilts.

              Lol this ! Being a Dwelf, I sometimes get odd looks from the vintage guitar user group too when I turn on 'that thing'.

montyrivers

#8
I haven't talked about it but I recently hurt my right hand and am in guitar hiatus.  I have taken to collecting keyboards and synthesizers and in my new adventure I can tell you that keyboardists have nothing to worry about.  Just like guitarists have nothing to worry about even when someone busts out a sick "guitar" solo on their fantom x.

The VG99 is the only thing that can't really be touched but as for triggering sounds, the use of a keyboard is king.  I should also add that I have yet to see a single decent guitar synth performance of an acoustic piano sound.  Even Adrian Belew isn't going to emulate the kind of chops consistent with a solo piano performance.

Elantric

Monty, sorry to hear about your hand injury, that would be devastating for most of us here.

montyrivers

Quote from: Elantric on April 24, 2015, 07:35:42 AM
Monty, sorry to hear about your hand injury, that would be devastating for most of us here.

Thanks Elantric.  Just taking it slow.  The VG is still plugged in for studio use, but I am on keyboard duty for most live shows.  Rest, Vitamin B6 and a new musical hobby.  I have a few used boards that were as fun to fix up as they are to figure out and play.

szilard

It may be a threat to cover bands, but I don't see it as a problem for national/international acts. A couple people who use/used guitar synths along with keyboards that come to mind - Metheny, Garcia, Fripp, and Belew. Also, in fusion it isn't uncomon to have multiple keyboard players. Miles' album In a Silent Way had Zawinul, Hancock, and Corea playing together! Hancock often had a second keyboard player in his bands.

My 2 cents.

thebrushwithin

#12
If I am playing in an ensemble, and I detect any sort of unhealthy rivalry sound thingy, I get away from that situation as fast as I can. Most of my rock band experience, almost always included 2 guitars, a few times I did guitar synth with keyboardists, and so, I enjoy creating even more with fellow instrumentalists, no matter if there are multiples of an instrument. The Guitar Trio comes to mind, as a good example. Also, Chic Corea with Keith Jarret live with Miles. Usually bands that have a healthy respect for each member, no matter what instrument they play, always sound the best, cause it brings freedom of movement. The tool shed is getting larger, and musicians should welcome the diversity. If you ain't growing, you're dying!

GovernorSilver

I guess it depends on the individual.

Hammond organ players seem to love playing with guitarists - probably because the guitarist can comp chords for them, as the organist is usually busy playing bass with the left hand (especially fast jazz bass lines that are too fast to play on the bass pedals) and soloing with the right hand.

I suspect any intelligent keyboardist who doesn't suffer from insecurity about guitarists would welcome a guitar synth wielding guitarist, as long as both are on the same page regarding band arrangements/orchestration.  Not dissing that U2 keyboard tech, but his opinion/attitude doesn't seem to jibe with those of other members of the keyboard playing community I've encountered.

DreamTheory

Quote from: Rhcole on April 23, 2015, 02:09:05 PMKeyboard players are the elves and guitar players are the dwarves. Elves don't like it when dwarves put on pointy ears and stand on stilts.

Ha! Except guitarists are definitely more elvish. Dwarves are the mechanical, entrenched guys with wide, flat gear like axes and crossbows... and keyboards. Elves are tall and elegant, like guitar players.

I was in church today and the keyboardist played some halo pads and mellotron type tones. This was low key band presence in support of congregational singing, and subliminally behind prayers. A GR-55 player could have done that keyboard player's job easily, and still played the guitar part simultaneously. As a collaborator a GR-55 player might let the keyboardist do the pads, but add some other little touches (in addition to guitar), like bells or something. There was also a violinist, but a GR-55 guitar player could have done volume pedal work to replace what he was doing. And the bass player for that matter- his job is "threatened" too. But the drummer was out, so clearly the GR-55 player could have added drums from a kit patch, or at least a conga part. Or if the keyboard player would do that, then GR could do the pads. People just need to realize that it does not matter what the trigger is. You never see a keyboard player finger drumming, but everyone accepts it when keys trigger strings. Hopefully people will just accept it if it sounds good.

Hand drum triggers... wind controllers... It would be fun to have a band where nothing sounds how it looks.   
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

mchad

I would love to think the Edge already knows about this forum. And gets in amongst it. Alongside the other great innovators of the guitar world!  :)  Surely he has a VG99. Andy Summers uses one I think.

Speaking of innovation I'm hoping the SY-300 opens up some possibilities in the EDM sphere where electric guitars are concerned. There's a whole untapped world there.

HCarlH

Quote from: shawnb on April 23, 2015, 03:09:10 PM
Yes.   Think how many cover bands get by without a keyboard because the guitarist has a GR-55...

My band has been in between keyboard players for a year. We have one play part-time as he is not always available.  For the times he is not, we play as a 3 piece with my GR-55. It's a lot more work for me as I'm switching back and forth between guitar and key parts. I have to leave some things out and learn keyboard parts I was not previously responsible for.
GR-55 (or) Fishman TP + Kemper Profiling Rack -->> 
QSC K10 -->> FOH
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Telecaster, Charvel SoCal ProMod, Gibson Les Paul, PV Wolfgang,

pedwards2932

I originally got into guitar synths because we lost our keyboard player.  At the time since keyboard players seemed to have the most invested in their equipment they were in higher demand and harder to replace.  I bought a GR33 and we played for several years as a 3 piece.  Made a lot more money but it was definitely harder on me to try to cover everything.  We added a keyboard player for a while but he was more of a vocalist than a keyboard player so I still did a lot of the synth stuff like horns etc.  After he left we added another guitar player and except for some lead parts I pretty much played only synth stuff.....piano, organ, horns etc.  After he left we added a keyboard player and I play a lot more guitar but still add in the horns etc.  Guess what I am saying is you adapt to what you have but the GR33 opened my eyes to the potential of a guitar synth and how to adapt to not having a keyboard player........besides when they react with horror to what you can do with a guitar synth remind them of how keyboard players have replaced string sections, horns, and orchestras for years before the guitar synth came into it's own.

supernicd

As someone who plays both, I say, nah.  Even if you nail the keyboard tone and timbre 100% accurately (which is very possible with guitar synth equipment) there are lots of parts that are impossible or very difficult to voice/phrase on a guitar the same way you would on a keyboard.

The reverse is true too.  You might be able to nail the tone of a hot guitar solo on a keyboard synth, but even with mod wheels and other expression controllers, you lose something in the way your hands and fingers interact with the strings and fretboard.

My take:  there's plenty of room in the world for both, and if there's lots of crossover capabilities between the sounds, all the better.  Musicians dedicated to improving their skill and their music should be able to take advantage of it and up everyone involved's game.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

GovernorSilver

Quote from: montyrivers on April 24, 2015, 05:13:42 AM
I haven't talked about it but I recently hurt my right hand and am in guitar hiatus.  I have taken to collecting keyboards and synthesizers and in my new adventure I can tell you that keyboardists have nothing to worry about. 

Missed this earlier.  Heal fast, and enjoy your keyboard/synth adventure!

GovernorSilver

I just remembered that I saw Return To Forever on their Romantic Warrior reunion tour.

There was at least one song in which Al Di Meola played guitar synth.  Chick Corea didn't seem fazed by that at all.  He always looks like he's having fun on stage anyway.  Granted, Chick is one of the greatest keyboard players alive, so he has little reason to be insecure about anybody else or their toys.

There was also the Parallel Realities tour in which Pat Metheny and his Synclavier guitar rig shared the stage with Herbie Hancock and his keyboards.

chrish

#21
I read on a Pat Methany Q&A blog that Lyle Mays plays all of his 'PMG' solos on piano and that Pat plays all the synth solos. And then there is guitar and synth-axe master, Allan Holdsworth, who has had a keyboard player in his group. They both rip solos that have, to my ear, simular tone qualities, speed and note phasing. So both can and do co-exist. At my level of playing, it would have been nice to have a keyboard player, but when the group made 200 dollars a night, food and beer, a 3 way split is better than 4 or 5 way split. We even skipped having a bass player and would choose songs and do arrangements where i could cover some of the bass with the vg-8 on the E,A strings. So i would say that the guitar tech devices can help with economic realities that we face.

gibvictory

I'm in a six man band with four lead vocalists with lots of harmonies and a challenging song list. We try to faithfully recreate, when possible, the original recordings. There are many songs our keyboardist is already playing parts with both hands and singing either lead or harmony. He and the whole band are very satisfied when I can add additional things that he just runs out of hands for or has to concentrate on a lead vocal. We have another guitar player and that makes it possible. We all agree what is good for the song is good for the band. Two of my best friends are keyboard players and they have been very helpful coaching me about getting the best out of my GR55 in order to compliment our keyboard player. They occasionally sub for our keyboard player and get a kick out of synth sounds coming from someone else's fingers. I must be very lucky. Maybe it's because we are all of a certain age and long past a young man's ego. We're happy to still be rockin'.

alexmcginness

Heres a 3 piece band doing Comfortably Numb live off the floor, no overdubs. The guitarist is using a VG-99 for everything and theres a bass player and a drummer. The patch for this is somewhere here on the forum. This guy is really stretching what can be done with some creative programming. Keyboardists beware :-)

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