GR-55 -External pitch detection of GR-55 GTR MIDI output to trigger a MIDI event

Started by Toff., June 02, 2014, 06:09:10 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Toff.

Hello again great folks,

Disclaimer: I searched the forum via the SMF search engine AND a Google "site:" search prior to posting but if I missed an older post about this please just shoot me and show the right direction :)

Now that I have a decent MIDI interface connecting the GR-55, a Voicelive 3 and 2 iPads together, I am exploring new possibilities that were not possible with the limitations of the GR-55's controls and assigns.

How would you go triggering a MIDI message upon the MIDI event of a specific note being played on the guitar, in a LIVE show with no computer?
Any hardware or iOS app similar to Gtak (Read this from Elantric)?


While a lot can be done with feet, there is a lot of dancing involved when on stage (especially those gigs I have to stand up and cannot sit on a bar stool).

Therefore, I could use the ability to also control some of the gear via MIDI from a specific part of a song when playing that chord (I do not use backing tracks, so that is not an option) or by quickly fretting somewhere unused for the song (like "22nd fret on low E").

Potential uses there - such as starting playback of an audio file/loop, activating an effect on the GR-55 itself or on any other MIDI compliant gear connected to the interface (delay on my voice for instance, on my VL3) .

Or even simulating a vertical split on the GR-55 as per the Axon's - With assigns the PCM tones can be swapped. I often trigger a switch in PCM tone using HOLD on the CTL pedal, meaning I can have 4 PCM  per preset in total (2 X 2 concurrent).


In theory

With the GR-55's GTR-MIDI mode set to MONO, each string information is passed on a separate channel.

Provided we have a listener app (or additional MIDI hardware) that can detect the pitch on a specific string/channel, we should be able to attach an event that triggers a midi message when a certain note is played. Without a computer and VSTs.

That would probably require adjusting parameters to provide fast playing response and pitch bend  response (which is usually a huge cause of "bad" MIDI out performance) using maybe the DATA THIN param well, plus set CHROMATIC ON to maintain the pitch, but in theory it'd be possible - right?

I am looking into Lemur to see if it could be a good candidate.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

Elantric

A list of possible Methods to accomplish some of what you want:

#1 MIDI Solutions Event Processor+
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodepp.htm


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4943.0

QuoteOr even simulating a vertical split on the GR-55 as per the Axon's - With assigns the PCM tones can be swapped. I often trigger a switch in PCM tone using HOLD on the CTL pedal, meaning I can have 4 PCM  per preset in total (2 X 2 concurrent).

Well the big road block is the fact that the GR-55 does not act upon ANY  MIDI Note On/off events received at its MIDI Input - An older 1997 Roland GR-30 has far greater MIDI capability in this dumbed down world of today.

And there is that ugly 200 milliseconds silence during every GR-55 patch change, so that cripples using the  Event Processor + to dynamically change GR-55 presets based upon where you are playing on the fretboard.

So you could use the GR-55 to act as the Guitar to MIDI function and feed the Event Processor +  - but trigger a separate external MIDI Synth - but then you will need a MIDi Thru box if you use a separate more MIDI Foot controller that has utility than the GR-55.


These days in 2014 most folks who want  live performance fret splits ala Axon "do the math" and get a Fishman Tripleplay  + a recent Macbook and run Ableton or Logic X to accomplish what you intend to do.  Some still buy G-TAK an addition - to use FTP to trigger NI Komplete more effectively than the FTp Control Panel, since upon review of features : G-TAK provides greater control for MIDI Guitar compared to FTP Control Panel  - FWIW both apps are the creation of Costas at Even Harmonic in Germany
http://evenharmonic.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

And IMHO there is a reason FTP Control panel has less features than G-TAK, since Costas need to eat too.

But dont let me be the last word on this, and make you discouraged - Im just reporting the expected pot holes and landmines on your journey.

Also look at Roland V-Link
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=37.0

And read more here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8481.msg60990#msg60990

Toff.

Quote from: Elantric on June 02, 2014, 06:31:51 PM
Well the big road block is the fact that the GR-55 does not act upon ANY  MIDI Note On/off events received at its MIDI Input - An older 1997 Roland GR-30 has far greater MIDI capability in this dumbed down world of today.
And there is that ugly 200 milliseconds silence during every GR-55 patch change, so that cripples using the  Event Processor + to dynamically change GR-55 presets based upon where you are playing on the fretboard.
You are 100% correct (as often ^^) - But in the case of the split,  I meant sending a CC from the "outside" of the GR-55 back to it, triggering an assign within the same patch to switch PCM1 OR PCM2 TONE number. It could also be a SySex string, but for now I just want to keep it simple.

I'll look into the even processor - I appreciate the quality and versatility of MidiSolutions products (and believe it or not, they can be found here in Australia - rare feat.).
The aim is to intercept the output of the GR-55 and trigger an event back if a specific condition is met.


QuoteThese days in 2014 most folks who want  live performance fret splits ala Axon "do the math" and get a Fishman Tripleplay  + a recent Macbook and run Ableton or Logic X to accomplish what you intend to do.
Ahhh yes, the FTP - I would love to, but I cannot - Unless I missed something, It unfortunately doesn't work with Nylon string (the pickup needs ferrous strings aka. magnetically sensitive material) and exclusively use my 2 pre-equipped Godin ACS Nylon for gigs.
A Jazz & World Music guitarist, my playing style is 100% finger picking. While I can have fun on an acoustic metal string or electric (I still have an ES-335 and had an SG for years (back in the days I had hair and enjoyed heavier sounds ^^)), I now only perform with nylon string.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

gumtown

Quote from: Toff. on June 02, 2014, 10:55:19 PMThe aim is to intercept the output of the GR-55 and trigger an event back if a specific condition is met.
What condition are you requiring?  From the midi output steam it would have to be a note on, note off message, or a range of notes.

One useful function the GT pedals have is either variable or threshold triggered sound level to assign range.
Something with a variable frequency filter (EQ) & sound level to cc# would be handy.

The other option is a manually operated pedal like the Behringer FCB1010 or Roland FC-300 to send cc# back to the GR-55.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Toff.

Heya Guntown! Long time not spoken :)

That would be on a specific note, on a specific string - or a specific chord (but 1 note to start with seems more achievable ^^).

Idea being, if I play the 22nd fret on the low E (in MONO mode), could an app like Lemure, or a hardware such as midi solutions EPP, be programmed to automatically send back a CC along the MIDI chain?
I can have the GR-55 or my VL3 "listen" for that CC and do something.
The missing link for me is the programmable part.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

gumtown

I am pretty sure the "Midi Solutions Event Processor" is programmable via editor software,
allowing the pre-defined midi events to be pre-programmed to the Event Processor.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Macciza

Lemur will do it - with a little bit of programming , and with a bit more even more complex responses. . .
Also do you have a foot controller? The FC 300 is damn good, and the SoftStep might be worth a look as well . .  .
'70s Strat, Brian Moore iM, VG-8, VG-99, FC-300, VL-70m, StringPort, SoftStep, Sentient6, iMac QC i7 27".

Elantric

QuoteLemur will do it - with a little bit of programming



I assume you mean  the iPad Lemur App from Liine?

https://liine.net/en/
-  NOT the 2009 Lemur hardware?




QuoteAhhh yes, the FTP - I would love to, but I cannot - Unless I missed something, It unfortunately doesn't work with Nylon string (the pickup needs ferrous strings aka. magnetically sensitive material) and exclusively use my 2 pre-equipped Godin ACS Nylon for gigs.
A Jazz & World Music guitarist, my playing style is 100% finger picking.

There exists a  work-around.

* Feed the FTP Controller PU input with any 13 pin guitar using a DIY Cable interface:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0



One day they might offer strings which allow your Godin Nylon to work with a magnetic PU to work:



QuoteThe event of electric  guitars left nylon strung guitars behind--magnetic pickups do not work on nylon.  However, I've been wondering if the newer, metal wrapped nylon strings could be captured with magnetic pickups?  And if so, the next question would be, can treble nylon strings be metal wrapped?  Anyone have any insights on this?  Sort of thinking out loud here.


QuoteFrom: Andras Szalay
To:
midiguitar@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [midiguitar] Re: Fishman Triple Play

Believe us, we thought about all these ideas of piezo pickup, nylon string
guitar, floor unit with MIDI out, bass guitar compatible unit, etc., and
these will come. Also, the Triple Play supports a Hold/Arpeggio/Looper +
Chain pedal set, Burr used these in the demo. This will be optional, not
part of the basic package. Only if these options would come all at the same
time, it would take a hell lot of time until release, and we did not want to
let you wait much longer. So, the product that was shown on the leaflet at
the NAMM is a first release, different packages and auxiliary extensions
will follow soon.
Do not forget that also the first release of the AXON did not work with
bass, with piezo, did not have Arpeggiator, etc...

>> I've got rack synths already.
Specifically, a floor unit with MIDI out was my priority, but I had to admit
that if we would start to sell a unit with a MIDI OUT only, I cannot name a
single rack synth today that would be a good match for the Triple Play,
except as second hand

Anyway, if you have still more ideas that we probably did not think about,
we have open ears for that

Andras Szalay

shawnb

For an example of what you're trying to do, check out this post/patch:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8247.0

I used the MSEPP described above.   Yes, it is programmable, the program is attached to the post.   It comes with a very helpful custom editor.

Shawn


Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Toff.

Quote from: Elantric on June 03, 2014, 03:00:55 AM
I assume you mean  the iPad Lemur App from Liine?
NOT the 2009 Lemur hardware?
Yes, sorry I posted this in another thread but of course you have 100s of posts each week and it didn't occur to me.


Quote
There exists a  work-around.
* Feed the FTP Controller PU input with any 13 pin guitar using a DIY Cable interface:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0
Now, I need to smack myself. I have read this thread this very week and it just didn't click ...
Thank you for this.

That opens a lot of possibilities.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

Toff.

Quote from: shawnb on June 03, 2014, 03:38:36 AM
For an example of what you're trying to do, check out this post/patch:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8247.0

I used the MSEPP described above.   Yes, it is programmable, the program is attached to the post.   It comes with a very helpful custom editor.

Shawn

Karma to you for that post. Great demonstration and proof of concept for what I'd like to achieve.
Now, to chose whether I get the box or try to do it software side on the iPad.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

Toff.

Quote from: shawnb on June 03, 2014, 03:38:36 AM
It comes with a very helpful custom editor.
Windows only :/ - I'll setup a VM on the mac later in the week, to try the editor.
Musical regards,

Toff.

Godin nylon ACS special edition (Light Burst Quilted Leaftop), Taylor T5 Classic, Fishman Triple Play, Roland GR-20, Roland GR-55, TC-Helicon VoiceLive 3, Digitech Vocalist Live5, iConnectMidi2+

shawnb

Toff. -

For years, I've had this notion that melody & composition - via filter (as opposed to "note") - is really, really worthy of exploring.  (I love that aspect of dubstep...) 

I used to do a lot of algorithmic composition.  I have an old piece lying around that was based almost exclusively on this idea - the main driving force was a fractally generated sequence of filter settings.  The underlying tones were largely static (or Cantor-set percussion tracks), it's the filter that changes to drive the music.  If interested, I'll dig that up. 

But I like to play my guitar...   My notion behind that "epctl Synthy" patch was to play a note/chord & then play a melody via filter on top of it.  It didn't really work out the way I wanted.   

If I could TUNE the filter, which requires finding the relationship between the numerical filter values & the frequency, I'd be tempted to have the whole guitar simply send CCs, not notes, and play on top of a synth generated sequence.   (Mono mode, 1 channel per string, affecting a 6-part muilti-mode synth...)

I've tried, but have not been successful at "tuning" the filters thus far.  I'll get back to that one of these days; I'm sure it's simple, just elusive. 

FYI, on a related note, I also have this tool, which is VERY fun to play with...  I generate different patterns & use it to drive my wah (for guitar) or my filter (for synth).  I bet it will run on a Mac if you install pd:
   https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10331.msg75335#msg75335

Thought I'd share my crazed musings on this subject!

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Macciza

Re: Lemur - Either would do it but the current iPad version is better suited due to easier and standalone setup . . .

In fact - it could also do (already does) similar stuff to the CC generation being done in PD, without the need for the computer . . .
Though no internal midi_clock it does respond to external clock if needed . . .
Currently just converting to CCs but could do anything really - send ProgChange, PitchBend, Sysex etc etc

Have had a bit of a play re- Note to Data.
Distortion increases as going up strings - Delay added only above 12th fret etc Working proof of concept...
Might look at implementing some of these sorts of things that were possible with StringPort . . .

Cheers
MM
'70s Strat, Brian Moore iM, VG-8, VG-99, FC-300, VL-70m, StringPort, SoftStep, Sentient6, iMac QC i7 27".