GR-55 - Why I returned my GR55 and Went Retro

Started by Davis, December 04, 2012, 11:25:20 PM

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melodymann

Woh!!! That's some deep s%*t right there.

Godspeed Davis.

Melodyman

w8ing4thewindshield

THAT my friend.. was an extremely well thought out, eloquently stated musical soul search. you nailed it. THIS comes from a lifelong keyboard/synth player who was always comfortable with a huge sound palette.

five years ago i started to learn to play a Chapman stick (bought used).. NO effects. i had that same, raw "feeling of connection" i had experienced with my piano.. which i was classically trained on for close to 2 decades before touching a synth. My "crossover" to keyboard synths was a bit easier because i wanted to sound JUST like the progressive rock keyboard gods i was trying to emulate.. and that was the only way to do it. but i felt that same disconnect you just experienced. i wasn't "playing" anymore.. the synth was playing and i was just the tech controlling it.

flash forward 3 years later when i purchased a new stick custom fit with the GK-3 and the GR-55. all of a sudden i felt like i wasn't playing the stick anymore. it made cool sounds that you didn't expect to come out of it.. amazed my friends and bandmates..  but i experienced that same emotional void you did. i rarely use it anymore.

so don't question your sanity. you play GUITAR. don't ever stop.

jimi

aliensporebomb

Interesting thought.  I'm sympathetic but I also think that diffferent musical instruments are different tools to achieve an end.  Some will work for your musical purpose and some will not.  Sometimes you find what you had originally works better for you than the next wonder toy.  It's interesting because sometimes going back to that original item gets you closer to why you were involved in music in the first place.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#28
I try to use the appropriate gear for the gig at hand - I play many styles and I'm often the substitute  guitarist for occasional gigs in several local bands.
My main gig lately is playing traditional early 1960's surf music  - think "Pulp Fiction" movie soundtrack.
So in that situation, its all about the performance and faithful recreation of those vintage tones. I rely on my straight guitar feeding a real 1963 Fender Tube Reverb unit, then a clean amp.



I see many bands, and some "synth" based local  bands that use most of the gear we all discuss here at VGuitarforums can actually be among the most boring musical experiences I have ever seen.  Some have zero stage presence and I have seen more exciting entertainment at a Karaoke bar.

To be successful when you perform live, you must be aware of the "theater" aspect of your bands presentation.
Luckily Ive attained a level of musicianship that the general public finds interesting and appealing and my band get many gigs - despite the fact we are a three piece pure instrumental band with zero vocals performing music that was once popular in southern California half a century ago. 

Also at live shows -  the audience "Listens with their eyes"
more here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.msg33233#msg33233

hollowbody

Davis, I can understand you very well. I love (and play in one band) the GR55, but I sometimes have this strange feeling as if I would be "cheating"!
This also happended to me with many other gear.

The first piece of equipment that did NOT give me this feeling is the Kemper amp.
It is no substitute for the GR55 in terms of sounds, of course. But by playing the Kemper I forget that I play through a digital machine. I just feel my guitar in my hands.

SLICK

I have to agree with the Davis and I have just sold my gr55.
I got mine the week before they were available in the uk having been a fan of the previous gr 30 and gr 33 and having gigged and recorded with the boss gt 8 and the 10 I knew what I was getting into.
I understand all of the menus and know where everything is and as an engineer I am not unused to working my way through sub levels of data to get to the parameters I want. Even though the interface was horrid ( the gr 30 and especially the gt 10 had much better usability) I worked through it.
The one day on a whim really I purchased an analog fuzz pedal (blackout effectors).
When it arrived I plugged it in and connected my guitar through it into my Laney tube amp (I use the gr55 through a pair of Titan 12a PA speakers).
I realised that all of the synth stuff is cool and you can do so much with it the possibilities are huge.

But I prefer to play guitar.

And when I was using the gr55 I never played guitar. I mean emotionally. I played guitar parts but I was wholly uninspired.
From the point of purchasing that fuzz I knew I was missing something. It was like rediscovering a childhood or something.
This was about a year ago so I am not just honeymooning with the analog side here. And I feel I have the digital a pretty good 8 to 10 year crack of the whip.

It wasn't the synth or the menu or the lack or position of buttons or control or the quality or number of effects or tones.
I just never felt like I was playing the guitar. No matter what amp or eq I dialled in.

I have nothing against digital effects in fact I plan on using quite a few in my new setup but the Roland boss stuff just doesn't connect me when I play distorted guitar and ultimately that's the deal breaker.

I will still be dabbling ( I got a sonuus g2m which is amazing at what it does ) but it will be a long time before I buy another COSM product as I believe they all suffer from the same issue.

I will be sad to see it go but I can't afford to run 2 rigs and the satisfaction I get from the analog one has rekindled my love of guitar playing which in turn makes me feel happy inside :) 

So long and thanks for all the fish.....
Parker fly deluxe,
Roland GR-55,
Laney LC30II

Baldeagle

Hi folks, new guy on the block here, I got my GR-55 a few weeks back, stuck the pickup just in front of my USA Strat's bridge, where it fitted just right, off I went for the next three weeks,having a groove, exploring the musical depths of my new Synth, last week, I had the chance of a Vox AC30, so part-exchanged my Strat for this great Amp, no problem, I thought, as I had at the same time purchased for a great price, a Tele 'Empress'-when I came to link-up the GK pickup to it, no dice, the Tele scratch-plate would have to be modified to accommodate it-something I don't really think I want to do, -guess I have to check-out buying a VG instead,-I cannot believe I never checked the Tele for fitting the Roland pickup!
You don't know what you've got, till it's gone"- Joni Mitchell

Litesnsirens

Sorry guys, I don't get it at all.  Admittedly, I actually hated the first incarnations of modellers, guitar synths etc.  It had nothing to do with "soul", it's just that they sounded like crap when you brought them up to gig level. And true enough they were lacking pick dynamics.  To be fair, it was a neat idea I just don't think the technology was up to the task.  They did sound decent at bedroom levels, I'll give them that but that only gets you so far. 

Because of that I totally gave up on the idea of modelling and figured if I wanted real tone I would have to lug around heavy tube amps.  About two years ago I was looking for a midi switching solution, I came across the Line 6 M13 which isn't a midi switcher per se but could act as one, I was actually going to use it to run my TC Electronic Nova System.  I had no intention of using the modelled stomp boxes in the M13 itself. Of course I tried them out for fun and was blown away by how good they sounded. I sold the Nova System.  Then I graduated from the M13 to the HD500, as for some circumstances the amp models would be good for quick quiet rehearsals.  I realized that the HD500 through my Bose L1 sounded better than anything I had tried.  I sold my Boogie Mark V and bought a second Bose L1.  From the Line6 gear (HD500/JTV69) I migrated to the Roland GR-55/GC-1.  It gave me everything the Line 6 stuff did plus keyboard sounds, and lots of them.  Ultimately the switch created some problems but that turned out to be a blessing in disguise and now I have the best sounding rig ever.

I'm all about the "to each his own thing" I'm just saying my experience is night and day from some of the experiences posted on here.  I'm afraid I just don't follow the idea of something sounding too good to be good.  I want to sound as good as I can, and I want versatility.  I want to be able to provide a sax solo if needed, or have some string pads layered, barely audible under the guitar just to fatten up the overall sound.  And still, just have down and dirty guitar sounds for a good portion of the night that sound perfect, and play acoustic for a bunch of songs without switching guitars.  I am completely inspired by the guitar tones that I have created with my gear. 

I guess some people subscribe to the Jack White philosophy, about getting real, whatever that is.  I personally don't subscribe, because I wouldn't honestly know what I'm subscribing to.  I feel like I AM keeping it real, I mean those are real sound waves and my audiences can definitely hear them and respond to them, so I know they are there. I mean did it become unreal when guys attached a pick up to an acoustic guitar and then plugged it into an amplification device?  Was it less real when the guitar became solid bodied and was built solely for the purpose of being and electric guitar?  Or how about when we started building a crap-load of effects pedals to run between the guitar and the amp, is that cheating, or not real or genuine when compared to an original acoustic guitar?  It sure sounds a lot different.  Or is it only unreal and cheating if you're using a GR-55 or some other modeller/synth type system but every other deviation up to this point is still real and genuine and organic?

I know specifically, Davis was only trying to get into words something he felt he wasn't really able to articulate, and with that in mind I do understand the translation might not be an exact representation of his feeling about all this.  So this is only posted as the other side of the coin in response to the gist of it.  A gist that doesn't register with me in any way shape or form.  And that's just life and what makes it interesting, the differences among us.  To me I think it's just as simple as taste.  Some people like broccoli, some people hate it.  Some people really like regular flavoured potato chips but love salt and vinegar, or BBQ.  So get what you love.  There doesn't need to be a reason for it, because whatever that reason is, it's only truly understandable to the people who have the same taste. 

whippinpost91850

I HAVE TO SAY I AGREE WITH LITESANDSIREN'S ANALOGY. NO PUT DOWN TO ANYONE JUST ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT

aliensporebomb

It's interesting in that some of the issues were people indicating "they didn't feel they were playing guitar".  I understand what they're saying - There's a lot of people who consider themselves guitar players first and foremost but my thought is that I consider myself a musician who primarily plays guitar.   Important distinction.  I love too loud electric guitar as much as anyone, tubular fuzz distortion, delay, echo, wah, etc.  But as I age I'm more and more seeking out a musical purpose for all that insanity.

My "this is aliensporebomb" cd on iTunes basically had me playing every instrument and so I was playing synthesizer keyboards, six string bass, acoustic and electric guitars and various drums and percussion. 

So when I got the VG-99 and playing a guitar and having something else coming out of it isn't an unnatural thing to me. I'm doing this as a musical end.  But, I also am fortunate enough to be able to run a hybrid setup - conventional electric guitar thru tube preamp and some stompboxes and rack FX in addition to the VG-99 stuff.   

The other thing is that my finger pressure, vibrato and other things affect the sound differently than using a pitch-to-voltage synth guitar: rather, every time I finger a note it's subtly different because it's hexaphonic guitar processing with effects.  The way I enter into and leave notes, bends, shakes etc has a large effect on the character and even certain patches can sound TOTALLY different depending on the way I play it, light pressure,
heavy pressure, swelling in, etc.

And, interestingly going on in the "listening with their eyes" discussion: it seems that my black strat with white pickguard is perceived as "classy" or "orca like" so we're not getting as much of the "oh, he's doing this synth stuff with a shred machine" critique.  Finally a guitar that both rock and new age audiences can go "this works".  Weird, actually.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

DF400

I also don't quite get it...
I went through a similar soul-searching moment with the GR-55 but then came to a realization - I play "guitar" through my vintage (or modern) tube amps with all the feeling an articulation I fell in love with when I first picked up the guitar. However, I love using the GR-55, much like a keyboard player loves creating music using keys and synth sounds. I just use the guitar fretboard as a more familiar vehicle to achieve the same result. It has actually helped me in articulating different feelings and textures that were otherwise not possible.

So, while I understand the disconnect as a hard core guitarist, for me that was never the point - I don't want to express myself as a guitarist that happens to sound like a sax - I want to sound totally different. Otherwise, to me it just sounds silly.

My band covers a lot of musical ground.  We have a great time playing covers for may genres and I use the 55 to cover horns, keys, strings, synth, etc. Sometimes it's a lot of work, but I enjoy the challenge. Many (if not most) local big and accomplished cover bands use backing tracks or samplers to cover what the don't play - we play everything the audience is hearing which brings us a lot of satisfaction.

While I agree that an organic sound is awesome to appreciate and stage presence is key, I wouldn't categorize "synth" users as boring... boring is boring no matter what you play.


ecca

Horses for courses.
I remember being similarlydisappointed when I went from a GR09 to a GR20.
I still think the GR09 is as practical a guitar synth as the GR55 or any oif them but........ you also got the guitars that previously required a VG8 and much better synth voices.
The 3 patch selection was a backward step but the expression pedal was a plus so is the music player that you can use as a poor man's sampler.
There will never be a perfect synth that suits everyone.
Merry Christmas all.
Ecca

Baldeagle

Well, after reading through all the above replies, as to the pros and cons of the GR-55, my one, after 5 weeks has gone into the cupboard, it's a brilliant machine, but I realise, not for me, -I guess I'm too set in my retro-ways, for it to be of any use to me, the Stones open G setting was terrific to use, the Church Organ and Brass, Orchestras etc, are mind-blowing, but seemed to draw me away from the point of having a guitar, - ie-playing guitar,too many weird, dischordant sounds I would never use also, but my main gripe is, having bought the GR-55 for it's alternate-tuning capability, I've since found changing tunings so time consuming, -ie-tweaking this and that, I just wanna play guitar, not twiddle-around with controls! Anyway, great machine, it's up for sale if anyone's interested.
You don't know what you've got, till it's gone"- Joni Mitchell

s0c9

Having read this thread - but not owning a GR-55 (yet!) and *still* own a GR-33 - I thought I'd throw in my $0.02.
Having gigged the GR-33 for over 2 yrs, I think the disconnect is real and somewhat "under-explained" by those who "prefer to play guitar".

Sure, we are guitar players first. But we are also musicians. If I was that great a flute or oboe player I'd be making a living at it, but I'm not, so my GR-33 "synth" allows me to dabble in that "world" using a familiar instrument - a guitar!~   We are used to playing thru guitar amps where certain frequencies are prevalent. A muted Trumpet has its own range as does a Rhodes piano and the Tenor Sax.  Knowing where to use those instruments in the mix is key to connecting with them. That, and the most important part - modifying ones playing style for the instrument in question. You cannot play piano like a guitar. You certainly CANNOT bend piano notes - which I could do with the GR-33 (and I assume the GR55) if not configured correctly.

Over the 2 years of playing live with the GR-33 it took me a while to adapt to playing sax, organ, piano and synth pads thru a guitar. Like everything, practice makes perfect. The disconnect goes away over time.
My $0.02

Litesnsirens

Well in case it wasn't clear enough in my last post, I prefer playing these COSM guitar and amp tones from the GR-55 through my Bose L1 than playing my Paul Reed Smith through my Boogie Mark V tube amp.

No I seriously don't miss anything tactile, there's no difference in feel or nuance, it just gives me the opportunity to have a crazy wide array of guitar tones with out having to change guitars or amps.  As far as straight guitar sounds I find no disconnect whatsoever.

I started playing guitar through tube amps back in the mid 70's and have owned a string of great tube amps over the years Hi Watt, Marshall, Boogie, Fender etc. I dabbled in the modelling stuff in the mid 90's but was dissatisfied and went back to the good old fashioned tube amp as I was never happy with the sound.  I loved the idea of it though and the convenience, I just hated the sound and feel.

So it's not like I haven't been through the "it doesn't feel right or sound right" experience.  But IMO a lot of the modelling stuff out today has overcome that limitation.

The only disconnect is in some of the PCM stuff, but that's just due to some of the latency on the lower strings.  Anyone who is finding disconnect because you are playing a very different sounding instrument on a guitar is begging the question, "What did you think was gonna happen?"

DF400

Well put.

I also have really grown to appreciate the COSM sounds - I get a better live funk/Tele sound using my RMC Brian Moore and GR-55 than through my Tele and Fender amp setup - and I carry it all under one arm. I also get a great rock sound without dragging out my 100 watt head, 412 and spread of effects. In fact, I have migrated most of my cover tones to the GR-55 from the AxeFX.

I get that the feeling can e a bit sterile sometimes, especially compared to the textures and tones of a fine vintage setup - but to me it's much akin to sipping a fine 18 year old scotch or throwing a few beers back with some buddies, both can result in a great time!

whippinpost91850

Quote from: Litesnsirens on December 29, 2012, 06:12:44 PM
Well in case it wasn't clear enough in my last post, I prefer playing these COSM guitar and amp tones from the GR-55 through my Bose L1 than playing my Paul Reed Smith through my Boogie Mark V tube amp.

No I seriously don't miss anything tactile, there's no difference in feel or nuance, it just gives me the opportunity to have a crazy wide array of guitar tones with out having to change guitars or amps.  As far as straight guitar sounds I find no disconnect whatsoever.

I started playing guitar through tube amps back in the mid 70's and have owned a string of great tube amps over the years Hi Watt, Marshall, Boogie, Fender etc. I dabbled in the modelling stuff in the mid 90's but was dissatisfied and went back to the good old fashioned tube amp as I was never happy with the sound.  I loved the idea of it though and the convenience, I just hated the sound and feel.

So it's not like I haven't been through the "it doesn't feel right or sound right" experience.  But IMO a lot of the modelling stuff out today has overcome that limitation.

The only disconnect is in some of the PCM stuff, but that's just due to some of the latency on the lower strings.  Anyone who is finding disconnect because you are playing a very different sounding instrument on a guitar is begging the question, "What did you think was gonna happen?"
CAN"T AGREE ENOUGH

ecca

I appreciate all the purist stuff but there are some most effective thigs that simply couldn't be done on a guitar.
Here's Yesterday done with 2 GR09s in 2002. It starts as a cacophonic rabble but improves. Listen for the almighty b*****k dropped at the end.

Toby Krebs

This has been one of the best threads I have ever read on any forum. Whether it is acoustic guitar-electric with conventional amps/effects-V guitar devices etc...their are no shortcuts. It's all Blood-Sweat and Tears! Sometimes I have to walk away from something I am trying to program for a bit to get some perspective but in the end I almost always achieve my goal sound wise. Remember when performing to look up once in a while and look in the eyes of those in the audience.They will let you know how you are doing with whatever gear you are using.I don't listen to musicians in the audience. I only pay attention to what the lay people tell me on my breaks or after a gig.Thanks to all who posted on this thread! Great Stuff! I appreciate all of you! You are Affirmed!!!

PD FX

Nice discussion here! here are my thoughts:
I've had retro days and I will continu to have them.. then I grab an acoustic guitar or some cheap strat laying around, play.. and I'm back in some tradition that was created with these instruments.. the instruments reminds us of who we were and what we did.
On other days I play with the actual technics that are available right now..
And there are days I try to develop technics for the future, both electronics,mechanics and playing technics.
So, for me, its like Dickens said: Beware of the Ghost of Christmas past, present and future.
I enjoy playing with acoustic,electric,gr30,gr55,doubleneck and ukulele.
Cant say one is better than the other: they all add to my (musical) life

PS:
About feelings of disconnection: playing on 1 type of instrument allways disconnects you from the other instruments!
Ukulele playing e.g. always gives me the feeling 6-string acoustic guitar is largely overrated ')

GtrGeorge

Great thread.  Fantastically important points raised here in this thread.
To me, this could apply to almost any instrument..I look at them at artifice anyway..a device to communicate.  I love my guitars (and I even name them)..but I don't confuse them with the purpose they help me serve..to communicate.  And to me the GR-55 really makes me feel disconnected.  I demoed it twice and it wasnt the latency..it was something else.  Teh VG99 much less disconnect.
  ..and ya know, its all good, imho.
  You work with whatever works for you..and you avoid any impediments along the way.
   GtrGeorge

quickdraw

A very interesting thread here..... I sympathise with Davis - I've just got a gr55 after 15yrs of using a digitech gsp21(it packed up)  and I remember having the same "anxiety of the unknown" back then...it took me 6 months of gigging it(digi) to get it to feel right -I had been using a simple boss be5 before that. (I moved from gsp21 type of unit because cabared band wanted me to get something to recreate accordion and brass sounds as our synth player left.)

I'm having those same "anxiety and panic" feelings with the gr55 when, say, using a patch with pads, strings underneath - like, "this isn't right , these sounds shouldn't be coming from a guitar-am I a guitar player anymore?".  However, for me, at the core of the gr55 is a good multieffects unit that I can use with my pickups so i'm building from that and it's starting to come together gig by gig.
Atm, I'm dealing with the problem that's been quoted from musicman65:  patches tweaked to satisfaction at home thru phones but still not right through the pa at gig - I guess I'll have to wait till I can access the pa at an empty venue pre gig and slowly get things right .  I remember having to do this years ago with the gsp 21 and eventually, they were fine and I didn't need to mess with it for years.
Not using the modelled guitar sounds for much yet -maybe acoustic, I want to get my own guitar pu sounds bedded in first.

Everything I need is in the gr55 and I'll be giving it a year of gigging anyway( 40-50 gigs per yr) before I assess its suitability.


Quote from: musicman65 on December 07, 2012, 11:50:32 AM
Captain,

You just brought up the #1 problem with managing any type of modeller. It took me years to get a good feel for how my patches translate when moving from my studio to live situations. If you aren't using a Real Time Analyzer and calibrated mic to set your PA's EQ, it wont be anywhere close to your headphonrs. No way, no how.

My PA faithfully reproduces anything I run through it....but only after RTA treatment for that venue. When I cant "shoot the room" during setup, our sound suffers. We then shoot the room after the venue closes and the next time we are there, recall it and its perfect (ok, really good....nothing is perfect)

Also, headphones are all imperfect as well....you tweak to perfection with headphone A and its too bassy in headphone B. I am using Behr 770's lately. I tested several by sweeping them with a signal generator and many had significant differences across the full spectrum. Dr. Dres, Bose, and other consumer brands arent Generally suitable due to "enhancements" in their response.

bd

Toby Krebs

Don't use headphones. Use only full range PA type speakers and tweak tones LOUD!!! No other way to do it unfortunately. Get a used keyboard amp or powered PA speaker and use that as your amp. This will save you time.Good Luck!

sloopdawg

Quote from: Toby Krebs on September 01, 2013, 11:17:01 AM
Use only full range PA type speakers and tweak tones LOUD!!! No other way to do it unfortunately. Get a used keyboard amp or powered PA speaker and use that as your amp. This will save you time.

I couldn't agree more, powered speakers sound much more natural (to me anyway). I tried an amp and just didn't like it at all. I run stereo through a mixer into powered speakers and really am satisified with the results. (YMMV).

Toby Krebs

Stereo is great but I can't use it live. The band is a mono band. I am trying to not bring a mixer these days having carried one for years but I agree the best way to compensate for different rooms and not have to bring direct boxes etc...is a small mixer. Another reason not to use headphones. They are stereo and make your patches sound great until you have to run them into a PA in mono.