Help with GR55 structure re Guitar Out jack

Started by Rockbeare, August 05, 2014, 11:53:15 PM

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Rockbeare

Hi. I have a problem with my rig which is built around a GR55.

First, I need to explain the setup as it's quite involved.

I've finally rigged my GR 55 to drive and control a triamped wet/dry/wet setup, comprising a Blackstar Series One 45 with two Hughes & Kettner Switchblade 50 combos to left and right.

All three of these amps accept midi program changes. On the Blackstar control is confined to choice of its four channels, but the H&K's have 99 programmable patches which can contain amp settings and the onboard effects.

The GR55's guitar out usually set to carry both normal pu and modelling, and is routed to the Blackstar's front panel input jack.  The Blackstar's line out goes to a Lehle passive splitter and on to the H&Ks' rear-panel effect returns (which are after the gain stages but before the programmable fx). This routing allows me to add stereo fx from the H&K's to the Blackstar's dry centre channel, which sets the amount of dirt.

I also route the GR55's left and right output jacks into the H&Ks' front panel inputs.  From the front panels, you can programme whether each patch on the H&Ks 'sees' the guitar in or the fx return signal, so it's possible to switch the two amps' inputs by midi. This routing enables me to channel any sound from the GR55 into the two H&Ks in stereo. If it's a synth sound, I switch the GR55's guitar out off for the patch so the Blackstar in the centre sees no signal and is quiet.

This is a very powerful setup. From triamped guitar to Hammond or string synth in stereo at a single rap of the foot. I have the GR55's expression pedal set globally to give me volume control of all patches.

However, it was when I was trying to set up a patch using the GR55 to give me a Wah setting that I encountered a problem. It seems that guitar out comes BEFORE the GR55's mod block, because try as I have, I can only get wah through the left and right outs through the H&Ks. The centre-channel Blackstar remains resolutely unaffected whatever I do in the GR55's settings.

Am I right, because this is a great pity and looks like a design oversight to me? The GR55 has some fairly good onboard digital fx which could be usefully used before an amp and the guitar out jack is the best-sounding output on the unit.

The best workaround I've come up with involves routing the GR55's left out into one H&K and the right out into the Blackstar and on to the other H&K, but I lose the opportunity to triamp wet/dry/wet this way!

- - - -

In trying to solve the above issue for myself, I downloaded the latest driver for my Mac (running OS X 10.9.4) and updated the GR55's software to 1.05 (it was 1.01).

I also downloaded the latest version of the third-party GR55 editor, a previous edition of which I used successfully and found useful.  But this version mostly doesn't 'see' the GR55, and when it does, it always crashes when I press 'connect' and won't reopen.

Anyone having similar issues and can help? Despite the above, I'm not a geek so I'd need some pretty clear step-by-step help!

- - - -

Sorry for the length of this, but I hope someone can shed some light on both questions.  Thanks.

gumtown

#1
The GR-55 guitar out, does just as it says, dry guitar out, normal and/or modelled guitar, no effects.( yes that means no wah-wah)

This subject has been raised many times, and is mentioned in the top sticky topic "things to know"

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0


* How to enable  the GR-55 "Guitar Output" jack:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4682.msg31583#msg31583

For the GR-55FloorBoard editor, if you osx was upgraded and also had the firmware drivers previously present.
I would delete all midi devices from the osx audio/midi settings window, and the re-install them.
If the GR-55 midi driver keeps disappearing from the editor midi devices menu, it is a mavericks-vs-gr55 driver issue.

Read
GR-55 USB Driver for OSX 10.9 install / un-install
PDF Instructions here::
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3050.0;attach=9820

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=GR-55&id=63066964
GR-55 Driver Ver.1.0.1 for OS X 10.9

This is a driver for using the GR-55 on OS X 10.9.

Products?GR-55


[ CAUTION ]
* If Mac sleeps while playing a music file in the Finder, and then Mac resumes, the Finder may freeze. Here's procedures to recover the Finder:
Press command - option - esc keys at the same time.
Choose Finder and click [Relaunch] button.
The display will indicate "Do you want to force Finder to quit?"; click [Relaunch] button.

* If Mac sleeps while using an audio application, like DAW, and then Mac resumes, playback/recording may not work. If this happens, please relaunch the audio application.

Apple and Roland are looking into these two issues now.

System requirements
This driver has the following requirements.

* Please also check the System requirements for the audio/MIDI application and the operating system you're using.

Operating System
OS X v10.9
Computer
Apple Mac series computer with on-board USB
* Even if connected to a USB 3.0 port, the performance of the product will not change.
* Mac computers running Microsoft Windows are not supported.



Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Rockbeare

Thank you, very kind and clear, if also disappointing. At least I don't have to waste any more time.

I'll put a separate wah between the GR55's guitar out and the centre Blackstar amp input. That way I keep everything I have and get the one extra thing I need.

And I'll follow the driver uninstall/install instructions  and see how I get on.

Thanks again and best wishes.

Litesnsirens

I'm not sure if I'm following this rig completely but why not use the on board wah, run through amp models and effects on the GR-55 into the front of the H&Ks.  It will only be the wah patches that you need to do this.  It is possible to get good tones using the amp models.

Rockbeare

Thanks. From your comment it sounds like you've understood the rig & signal path very well.

And I'm trying what you suggest at the moment - basically using patches with the signal from the GR55's left and right out jacks into the two H&K's left and right, and muting the guitar out jack to the centre Blackstar amp.

There are some challenges getting the levels consistent, and the GR55's amp and drive sounds are ok but not as good but it is indeed one way round it. And while I'm at it, by the same means I could also set up trem and rotary patches with pedal-controllable LFO speed too.

Having had the GR55 since its early daysand a GR33 before that, if I were to enhance the GR55's design, I would make only three changes :

1 - add an input for normal guitar (as per some of mods on the forum) so the GR55 also accepts any guitar and processes it through Amp, Mod and MFX.  As it happens, my setup sort of allows for this because I can simply route a normal guitar into the centre amp and just use the GR55 as a midi controller.

2 - change the structure so that guitar out can be placed after at least Mod. Amp not so necessary but probably comes with the package, MFX maybe optional too. Since it's all in software, any routing should be possible.

3 - bring back a useful feature of the predecessor GR33, the ability to take instructions from a midi keyboard. As a guitar player, I seldom use keys and wouldn't invest in a keyboard synth, but I used to find it very useful sometimes to get synth sounds from a cheap keyboard controller.  It also meant I could have keyboard players round to jam/compose.

Once again, thanks for your comments and best wishes.  I'll press on now that I know what I can and can't do.

Rockbeare

PS I can fully understand why the long-suffering moderators don't want people starting new threads on known/pre-existing topics, but I offer two comments :

1 I did the good citizen thing and searched for an answer to my question before posting, but it was tough to find a truly relevant answer. Whether this is down to the proprietary search algorithms or the site's taxonomy, it comes across as hostile when someone stamps on what is probably a genuine and sincere call for some help.

2 - if a topic, in this case the characteristics of the guitar out jack and the ambiguity of the user manual, is so very popular, then why is someone at Roland not listening and responding, for example updating software?  It's the best from of customer research and relationship management there is.  Fractal Audio's responsiveness to user comments is legendary and in my own experience often creates very strong bonds between users and manufacturer.  On my current experience, though I could yet be proved wrong, Kemper's is as dire as Fractal's is excellent.


Elantric

#6
FWIW- We are NOT affiliated with Roland, and this forum was created more out of my own frustrations and disgust for lack of real world info about 13 pin systems.

A few Roland folks wander in here on their own time and read a few posts, but know that Roland Corp officially considers VGuitarforums simply as a random renegade bunch of old men with ideology and mindsets stuck in the 1980's, and no path for profit and unimportant to Roland Corps. future business plans. 
More here about the "Story of VGuitarforums":
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135

mbenigni

#7
Quote1 I did the good citizen thing and searched for an answer to my question before posting, but it was tough to find a truly relevant answer. Whether this is down to the proprietary search algorithms or the site's taxonomy, it comes across as hostile when someone stamps on what is probably a genuine and sincere call for some help.

I've seen a couple of people get their wrists slapped for not searching previous posts, but I think gumtown's reply above is pretty even, and intended to be helpful.  It's good to know a) that you're not alone with this problem (I was amazed by this design flaw myself) and b) that you might benefit by "starting at the beginning", so to speak.

Quote2 - if a topic, in this case the characteristics of the guitar out jack and the ambiguity of the user manual, is so very popular, then why is someone at Roland not listening and responding, for example updating software?  It's the best from of customer research and relationship management there is.  Fractal Audio's responsiveness to user comments is legendary and in my own experience often creates very strong bonds between users and manufacturer.  On my current experience, though I could yet be proved wrong, Kemper's is as dire as Fractal's is excellent.

Everyone's opinion will differ on a given company's responsiveness, though I think it's safe to say that Roland is infamously distant from their customers, at least in the U.S.  (I have mixed feelings about Kemper.  They will selectively ignore certain problems, but they are very good about maintaining their product with new firmware, despite its selling like hotcakes as-is.)  But as Elantric says, no one here has any influence over Roland's responsiveness, design choices, etc.  You can commiserate here, but if you want something to change, you have to go to Roland directly.  And then... don't hold your breath.  I strongly suspect that the problem in question was hardwired into the design to save a few pennies and couldn't be fixed in firmware even if Roland cared enough to try.


P.S.  I do hear you about the search results being difficult to sift through.  The bottom line is that this site sees a lot of activity every day, so there are always a lot of recent hits on any given topic.  If the most direct observations were made 2 or 3 years ago, it can be tough.

Rockbeare

Hello, all.  An update on progress to conclude this thread from my end :

I've posted a schematic of the rig for anyone interested at http://rockbeareguitars.com/rigssetups/triamp-guitarsynth-rig/.  Readers might also enjoy some the other rigs and guitars displayed there.

For the few patches where I require parameter control via the GR55 expression pedal - e.g. wah, Leslie, trem - I will :

1 - mute the GR55's guitar out jack so that the centre channel Blackstar amp receives no signal and is silent

2 - programme the Hughes & Kettner Switchblades' amplify the signals from the GR55's left and right outs.

Whether I use the GR55 or the Switchblades to generate such tones, all sounds will come from left and right, and centre will be muted.  Not ideal, but the best workaround for the limitations of the GR55's guitar out jack, though it does make setting levels a little trickier.

I also uninstalled and reinstalled the relevant GR55 drivers for my Mac and then downloaded a fresh version of the GR55 Editor.  It took a few attempts - it seems that the order in which you connect and boot up is critical - but a stable connection has now been restored so I can use the Editor, which is much more convenient for bulk programming than the GR55 itself.

So many thanks for the help and suggestions.