Windows Touch and Music, Demonstrated with Surface and Reaktor

Started by Elantric, June 07, 2013, 10:58:55 AM

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Elantric

Jun 7 2013
Windows Touch and Music, Demonstrated with Surface and Reaktor

by Peter Kirn

Big and healthy as the iOS ecosystem is, touch capabilities on Windows PCs means a whole, vast library of other tools becomes possible – without having to carry a laptop and a tablet. Having wandered the floors of Computex in Taipei, that isn't just a feature you'll see in a few models. Imagine if only a few laptops had trackpads, and everything else required you to use the cursor keys. Based on the lineups from makers like Taiwan's Acer and Asus – and what Intel and Microsoft are pushing for the platform (including HP, Sony, Toshiba, and Lenovo) – touch is something that will become a mainstream feature. (In fact, only dedicated workstations and gaming laptops showed up at Computex without touch features.)

Oddly, the hardware is here well before the software. In a touch demo above, only Reaktor really made sense to demonstrate – though it makes a terrific demonstration.

Reviewer Josh Morky is even impressed as a Mac user.

See his full review below, but the PC industry seems poised to give him nothing if not hardware options. Companies are making bigger tablets, full-sized displays with touch, bigger laptop/tablet convertibles, and so on. I got some time to play around with the Acer Aspire P3 tablet in Taipei, and while it has the same 10? display Josh found too small, it's also more powerful and lighter than Microsoft's offering (and the keyboard somehow manages to get decent travel in something that's not much thicker than most tablet covers). That'll be little comfort to someone wanting more real estate, though, and the bigger options tend to wind up being much, much heavier – like all-in-one machines or bigger, clunkier convertibles. So I hear the need for an ultra-thin tablet that extends the work area to 13? or more.


Acer calls its Aspire P3 an "ultrabook" and not a tablet, while pitching its ability to work in tablet mode. (And you can drop the cover.) It's also lighter than the Surface Pro. What you don't get is the bigger screen size the YouTube reviewer here wanted.

Hardware aside, what the video above seems to demonstrate is that more developers need to spend a grand and start testing. Usine has brilliant touch support;
http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/index.php
FL Studio and SONAR have basic touch support, though nothing that would make you necessarily want to buy a tablet in the way this Reaktor demo might. (Reaktor with proper touch support, too, would be incredible – and why not Windows builds of Traktor with the touchable wave display we see on their iPad version?)

But don't be too quick to dismiss all of this. A lot of music developers rely on Windows sales as a significant piece of their pie. And these machines are coming – lots of them.

Well worth reading the text that accompanies the video review above:

QuoteI've been a mac user for almost 10 years now and recently learned about the new Windows 8 taking the leap into touchscreen. More or less all new windows computers are touch. Its pretty obvious from the thousands of apps that have popped up on the iPad in recent years that performing electronic music on a touch screen is fun, expressive, and kind of what we've all been waiting for. It just makes sense. Ive used an iPad for playing music – which I love – but can't help but feel that Apple is purposefully limiting its potential. File management is a nightmare, and multitasking just doesn't work. The iPad is brilliant at making sure you get all your apps, music, movies through Apple. By controlling your work/data flow, they make more money – a good business model, but not good for the creative user.

    Windows 8 seemed too good to be true, but nobody on the internet has been writing about it. I decided to take the leap and bought a Microsoft Surface. Best Buy has a great return policy, so if I didn't like it, I could always return it....

    Basically, I ended up loving this thing. The operating system looks great, works great, and is altogether fun to use. Multitasking and switching between programs is great, and its really fun to be able to use a pen/stylus in addition to touch (its super precise and pressure sensitive). It really feels like the future of computers. I use a new 15? macbook pro in my studio and a new 27? imac at work, and now it feels like a bummer every time use them. They feel outdated. Trying to use the iPad is even more depressing. There are a lot of new windows tablets/laptops out there – but there are two things that made the Surface appeal to me more: 1) it comes with a pen (which helps if you need precision – especially with such a small screen – and taking notes or drawing is a lot of fun) and 2) the kickstand. I didnt really realize how nice it would be to be able to prop up a tablet – the ipad can be annoying to use in a lot of situations because it doesnt have one. Other things that are awesome is that it supports flash (Hulu!) and has usb – so you can use external drives, midi controllers, audio interfaces, etc....

    Using Reaktor is great. I personally hate having to use midi controllers whose interface bears no resemblance to the patch Im using, and touch OSC on an ipad can be buggy and you have to create templates for every patch you use and end up constantly changing your template if you change anything in your patch. I also dont want to have to take 2 computers to a show, I want a tablet up there with me and thats all. Surface does this. Reaktor is really responsive and expressive – but it doesnt support multitouch yet. I thought this would make it pointless to use on a touchscreen, but I barely notice it. There are times it would be great to use multitouch, and things could definitely get more interesting with multitouch, but even just touching one thing at a time completely blows away using a mouse/midicontroller/touchOSC.

    I tried using Ableton and it was super buggy with touch. You'd need a mouse, but even then, the screen on the Surface is just a bit too small.

    As much as I loved the Surface, I ended up returning it. My car required $1000 to fix the day after I bought this thing, and as close to perfect as it was, the screen size of the Surface is just a bit too small for performing. At 10.1 inches, it has the same problem as the iPad in that you can't fit too much on a screen without making the controls too small. Its fine if you miss a knob when you're working in your studio, but in a live setting, you'd want something you can reliably hit 100% of the time. Unfortunately, most of the windows tablets are around 10/11 inches – and for some reason the idea of getting a laptop sounds too old fashioned to me – I DONT want a keyboard. Im going to wait around a little bit till things like the Dell XPS 18 come out (an 18 inch tablet with a sweet kickstand thats even more versatile than the Surface's – though doesnt have a pen) or Microsoft comes out with a second edition (rumors are that they'll make a 14 inch version, which sounds like the perfect size for mobility, home use, and performance). In the next 6 months a ton of new computer sizes/formats will be coming out – and they'll get cheaper. When the perfect one comes out, I'll be ready for it.

    What REALLY needs to happen is that software companies need get on board. Theres not much yet that takes full advantage of multitouch. It'll come, but its not there yet. This is really exciting – its the obvious next step in the evolution of the computer. Windows made a great new operating system, now its the software companies turn to take advantage it.

Elantric




Ryan from Cakewalk demonstrates how Sonar X2 takes advantage of multitouch gestures in Windows 8, using a touchscreen monitor.

mbenigni

Grateful for threads like this, for obvious reasons.  Once again I've made myself an early adopter, waiting around for the party to start.

Josh Morky's review of the Surface Pro starts out so positive it almost seems like shilling:

QuoteBasically, I ended up loving this thing. The operating system looks great, works great, and is altogether fun to use.

...so it's telling that he turns out to have returned it a day later.  I think we get a glimpse of the honeymoon period, basically.  I love the Surface Pro, too, but if you think this OS is fun to use, I'd wager you haven't used it.  I do agree with him, though, that the screen is just too small for a touch device.  Then again, 18" would be too big for me.   It's a tough balance, making a touchscreen usable while still maintaining the portability which is so essential in a tablet.  The 14" variation he mentions sounds like it might be perfect.

QuoteOddly, the hardware is here well before the software.

This is kind of the million dollar quote; I'm a little shocked by the complete vacuum of usable software right now.  It's not as if this all came out of the blue.  Cakewalk is way out front right now, by all appearances.  Unfortunately the "X2a" enhancements downloadable from their website will not install on the demo version of X2, so I can't try any of this for myself without dropping a wad of cash to get my licensing back in order.  And as good as the demo looks, I have a strong suspicion it will all fall apart on a 10" screen.

I should probably make time to install my copy of Reaktor 5 on the SP.   But then I'm kind of having a renaissance with TouchOSC and the GR55 right now, which is weird with this $1K Windows tablet just laying around.  :)

Elantric

Just a correction - The Surface Pro / Reaktor Reviewer in the YouTube video is Josh Morky - who wrote>

  I've been a mac user for almost 10 years now and recently learned about the new Windows 8 taking the leap into touchscreen. More or less all new windows computers are touch. Its pretty obvious from the thousands of apps that have popped up on the iPad in recent years that performing electronic music on a touch screen is fun, expressive, and kind of what we've all been waiting for. It just makes sense. Ive used an iPad for playing music – which I love – but can't help but feel that Apple is purposefully limiting its potential. File management is a nightmare, and multitasking just doesn't work. The iPad is brilliant at making sure you get all your apps, music, movies through Apple. By controlling your work/data flow, they make more money – a good business model, but not good for the creative user.

    Windows 8 seemed too good to be true, but nobody on the internet has been writing about it. I decided to take the leap and bought a Microsoft Surface. Best Buy has a great return policy, so if I didn't like it, I could always return it....

    Basically, I ended up loving this thing. The operating system looks great, works great, and is altogether fun to use. Multitasking and switching between programs is great, and its really fun to be able to use a pen/stylus in addition to touch (its super precise and pressure sensitive). It really feels like the future of computers. I use a new 15? macbook pro in my studio and a new 27? imac at work, and now it feels like a bummer every time use them. They feel outdated. Trying to use the iPad is even more depressing. There are a lot of new windows tablets/laptops out there – but there are two things that made the Surface appeal to me more: 1) it comes with a pen (which helps if you need precision – especially with such a small screen – and taking notes or drawing is a lot of fun) and 2) the kickstand. I didnt really realize how nice it would be to be able to prop up a tablet – the ipad can be annoying to use in a lot of situations because it doesnt have one. Other things that are awesome is that it supports flash (Hulu!) and has usb – so you can use external drives, midi controllers, audio interfaces, etc....

    Using Reaktor is great. I personally hate having to use midi controllers whose interface bears no resemblance to the patch Im using, and touch OSC on an ipad can be buggy and you have to create templates for every patch you use and end up constantly changing your template if you change anything in your patch. I also dont want to have to take 2 computers to a show, I want a tablet up there with me and thats all. Surface does this. Reaktor is really responsive and expressive – but it doesnt support multitouch yet. I thought this would make it pointless to use on a touchscreen, but I barely notice it. There are times it would be great to use multitouch, and things could definitely get more interesting with multitouch, but even just touching one thing at a time completely blows away using a mouse/midicontroller/touchOSC.

    I tried using Ableton and it was super buggy with touch. You'd need a mouse, but even then, the screen on the Surface is just a bit too small.

    As much as I loved the Surface, I ended up returning it. My car required $1000 to fix the day after I bought this thing, and as close to perfect as it was, the screen size of the Surface is just a bit too small for performing. At 10.1 inches, it has the same problem as the iPad in that you can't fit too much on a screen without making the controls too small. Its fine if you miss a knob when you're working in your studio, but in a live setting, you'd want something you can reliably hit 100% of the time. Unfortunately, most of the windows tablets are around 10/11 inches – and for some reason the idea of getting a laptop sounds too old fashioned to me – I DONT want a keyboard. Im going to wait around a little bit till things like the Dell XPS 18 come out (an 18 inch tablet with a sweet kickstand thats even more versatile than the Surface's – though doesnt have a pen) or Microsoft comes out with a second edition (rumors are that they'll make a 14 inch version, which sounds like the perfect size for mobility, home use, and performance). In the next 6 months a ton of new computer sizes/formats will be coming out – and they'll get cheaper. When the perfect one comes out, I'll be ready for it.

    What REALLY needs to happen is that software companies need get on board. Theres not much yet that takes full advantage of multitouch. It'll come, but its not there yet. This is really exciting – its the obvious next step in the evolution of the computer. Windows made a great new operating system, now its the software companies turn to take advantage it.

mbenigni

QuoteJust a correction - The Surface Pro / Reaktor Reviewer in the YouTube video is Josh Morky

Fixed my post to follow suit.

Elantric

QuoteThis is kind of the million dollar quote; I'm a little shocked by the complete vacuum of usable software right now.

Not too hard to understand, Win7 and Win8  still has tha same 20 year old problem that no more than 10 MIDI devices can be addressed by the OS. (not a problem for OSX, or Linux  )

Add that OSX can create Aggregate multiple third party audio interfaces into one "composite" Core Audio Audio devics by using an assemblage of multiple third party audio I/O interfaces at the same time  - and even use an app like SoundFlower to assign ports and control 64 inputs and 64 outputs - with ANY OSX audio app.
http://cycling74.com/products/soundflower/
! No longer available

Contrast this with Windows where ASIO still rules and multi-client ASIO drivers are rare, and its typical for the first Windows audio app launched to seize total control of the ASIO Audio Interface - making it near impossible to run several audio apps at once. 
(This is part of the reason the FTP docs promote the need to use ASIO4ALL, as this becomes a work around to run several audio apps at once on Windows.

At my work, we have 6 or 7 different Win8 Touch Tablets and Notebooks, some with 10 point multitouch   yet none of them work well enough to make me want to actually use the touch interface. Ive not yet used any Win8 Touchscreen devices that recognize my finger gestures more than 60% of the time. Its definitely NOT as good or reliable as an  IOS / iPhone or iPad ( or even Android Tablet) touchscreen experience.

To paraphrase an old Frank Zappa line about rock music.

Microsoft isnt dead yet- it just smells funny

mbenigni

Quote from: Elantric on June 07, 2013, 01:58:18 PM
Not too hard to understand, Windows still has issues when more than 10 MIDI devices are present. (no problem for OSX, or Linux  )

I don't know... I'm not satisfied with this as an explanation for the software devs being, essentially, caught with their pants down on multitouch.  After all, it's not as if there aren't DAWs etc for Windows.  MIDI limitations notwithstanding, we do use the OS.  So it's not much excuse for ignoring an input technology that's been coming over the horizon for a couple of years now.

QuoteAt my work, we have 6 or 7 different Win8 Touch Tablets and Notebooks, some with 10 point multitouch   yet none of them work well enough to make me want to actually use the touch interface. Ive not yet used any Win8 Touchscreen devices that recognize my finger gestures more than 60% of the time. Its definitely NOT as good or reliable as an  IOS / iPhone or iPad ( or even Android Tablet) touchscreen experience.

That was my experience with older touchscreen Windows laptops as well, but it's not true of the Surface Pro (and probably not true of any of the latest generation of ultrabooks.)  These are equipped with really nice screens, and Metro is just as capable as iOS for navigating, launching apps, etc... we just need applications that can keep up.

Quote
Microsoft isnt dead yet- it just smells funny

Can't argue with that.  Win8 smells bizarre.

admin



https://lumit-audio.com/

https://lumit-audio.com/software/

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Rooted in Sophisticated Simplicity
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Whether in the studio or on the road...
Lumit's professional desktop functionality, speed of workflow and flat learning curve allow you to create complex musical ideas in a fraction of your current time.


https://lumit-audio.com/category/blog/

Elantric







Announced today, Microsoft's Surface Studio is bllled an intuitive desktop experience. The Surface Studio features a 28-inch touchscreen, with 13.5 million pixels.

The Studio also features a brand new peripheral, the Surface Dial, which is a touch-sensitive wireless dial that allows users to adjust settings on the fly or scroll pages.

Here is the full announcement of the introduction of the Surface Studio.

The Surface Studio will hit store shelves this holiday season with a price tag of $2,999. It is available for pre-orders.

gumtown

I like that concept, Microsoft might finally have a winner..
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

this slows me down
Quotewith a price tag of $2,999. It is available for pre-orders.

And it goes up to $4,199 for a maxed out version.
https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Studio/productID.5074015900?WT.mc_id=PromoEmail_en_US_Tent_C_Announce_10-26-16_13493_Hero_Pre-order_RTC



Tech specs
Display
Screen: 28" PixelSense Display
Resolution: 4500 x 3000 (192 DPI)
Color settings: Adobe sRGB, DCI-P3 and Vivid Color Profiles, Individually color calibrated
Touch: 10-point multi-touch
Aspect Ratio: 3:2
Surface Pen
Zero Gravity Hinge

Processor
Quad-core 6th Gen Intel Core i5 or i7

Graphics
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 965M 2GB GPU GDDR5 memory or NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980M 4GB GPU GDDR5 memory

Storage
Rapid hybrid drive options: 1TB or 2TB

Memory
8GB, 16GB, or 32GB RAM

Wireless
Wi-Fi: 802.11ac Wi-Fi wireless networking, IEEE 802.11 a/b/g/n compatible
Bluetooth: Bluetooth 4.0 wireless technology
Xbox Wireless built-in3

Dimensions and weight
Display: 25.09 x 17.27 x 0.44 in (637.35 x 438.90 x 11.4 mm)
Base: 9.84 x 8.66 x 1.26 in (250.00 x 220.00 x 32.20 mm)
Weight: 21.07 lbs max (9.56 kg)

Connections and expansions
4 USB 3.0
Full-size SD card reader (SDXC compatible)
Mini Displayport
3.5mm headset jack
Compatible with Surface Dial onscreen interaction1

Cameras
Windows Hello2 face sign-in camera 5.0MP front-facing camera with 1080p HD video

Audio
Dual microphones
Stereo 2.1 speakers with Dolby Audio Premium
3.5mm headset jack

Buttons and keyboard
Physical buttons: Volume and power
Surface Pen
Surface Keyboard
Surface Mouse

Security
TPM chip for enterprise security
Enterprise-grade protection with Windows Hello2 face sign-in

In the box
Surface Studio
Surface Pen
Surface Keyboard
Surface Mouse
Power cord with grip-release cable

gumtown

Yeah !!......... nah !!
I think I will pass on it at that price.
They are obviously trying to out do Apple on price too.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

whippinpost91850

Quote from: gumtown on October 26, 2016, 05:31:24 PM
Yeah !!......... nah !!
I think I will pass on it at that price.
They are obviously trying to out do Apple on price too.

I was thinking exactly the same thing

Elantric

There are other multitouch All in one PC's  that can perform some of the functions as the new Windows Surface



last year i grabbed Lenovo on sale for $325
Lenovo B50 All in one with 10 point multi-touch display, Intel I5 Quad Core Win8.1 PC

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/desktops/lenovo/b-series/b50-30/#tab-tech_specs

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/desktops/lenovo/b-series/b50-30/
http://www.quill.com/desktop-computers/cbs/51627309.html?cm_mmc=SEM_PLA_T_51627309&mcode=SEM_PLA_T_51627309

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6104.msg116838#msg116838