VG-88 - Underwhelming first VG-88 outside testdrive

Started by MotorBongo, May 30, 2014, 04:22:27 AM

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MotorBongo

Hmm, last night the first time I took the VG-88v2 to a rehearsal,
to see how it would keep up outside the house.

Long story short: I was pretty underwhelmed by the lack of 'body', 'cutting through', etc.
Not just together with other instruments, but on its own the difference w.r.t.
a 'normal' guitar w.r.t. making a bold sturdy sound was pretty big.

Let me add the used stuff, to illustrate:

Contestant #1: gtr with GK-3, VG-88-v2, factory-presets + Sounds Der Helden-presets, using GK-pickup only

Contestant #2: same gtr with GK-3, but using its own pickup (HB with coil-tap)

Contestant #3: cheap Jaguar with stock single coils


VG-output switch set for gtr-amp-usage. All fed into a SF Twin Reverb guitar amplifier.


Contestant #1 was pretty 'absent' w.r.t. the direct guitars. I was pretty surprised.

Must directly add that I sure understand the magic lies in carefully tweaking OWN presets.

Still, knowing that the VG-88(v2) presets are regarded to be last minute work from Roland,
and having way too much VerbDelayFX-whoosh around them, I had expected that the Sounds Der Helden
presets for instance would do a bit better.


But more importantly, and now I may come to the essence of my ramblings, various of those presets didn't
sound bad at all 'at home'. It's just that the transfer to the 'real world' (in the form of a rehearsal space)
_so far_ showed that there can be a Big Difference w.r.t. 'presence'of sounds.

It's clear that further tweaking, EQing etc is in order.  Yet I wonder if this maybe a property
of the VG-88(v2) and that say the older VG-8 cuts trough better because of its older less cleaner technology ?


Any suggestions welcomed!


Thanks / Best regards

thebrushwithin

The VG88 has been a work horse for my live needs. However, I use only FRFR powered speakers, and the output of the 88 must be set to line/phones, or else it sounds really bad. Also, make sure your home setup is exactly what your live setup is, or else any tweaking you have done will not translate to live.

MotorBongo

Quote from: thebrushwithin on May 30, 2014, 05:23:42 AM
The VG88 has been a work horse for my live needs. However, I use only FRFR powered speakers, and the output of the 88 must be set to line/phones, or else it sounds really bad. Also, make sure your home setup is exactly what your live setup is, or else any tweaking you have done will not translate to live.

It's right what you said, careful adjusting is in order to make it work.

Elantric

#3
QuoteVG-output switch set for gtr-amp-usage. All fed into a SF Twin Reverb guitar amplifier.

Thats your problem - I find with most Roland COSM Amp  /Cab Modeling systems ( VG-8 and VG-88, VG-99, GR-55, GP-10) all  work best if you set the Output mode to "Line /phones" and then feed the PA directly - stereo is preferred.

Today you can spend $400 for two of these 1000watt powered 12" PA cabs  and rarely miss your old tube amp

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alesis-Alpha-112-Active-2-Way-12-1000-Watt-Loudspeaker-with-Built-in-Alesis-DSP-/231381082923?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speakers_Monitors&hash=item35df63232b

Alesis Alpha 112 Active 2-Way 12" 1000 Watt Loudspeaker with Built-in Alesis DSP


Bryan Michael

I agree with Elantric.  You need either a VERY neutral sounding combo amp (the closest I can think of is a Roland JC120) or something like the Atomic amp (made for POD's) or a Tech 21 power engine, or even a CRATE power block with external speakers, or a FULL RANGE setup like the one Elantric has described.

FWIW, if whatever amp you are using has an effects loop, you can just run the VG into the effects loop return, and basically bypass the tone shaping aspect (and gain staging) of the amp itself and go right into the POWER amp section of the amp, giving you a cleaner representation of what the VG is doing.  This works particularly well if you have a STEREO amp with a stereo effects loop.  I used to do this with a Fender Princeton Chorus.  You will still have the coloring of the cabinet of the amp and the speakers, but the VG will be acting as your PREAMP in every way at that point, and you will be using the combo amp only for the speakers and power section.

-b

MotorBongo

#5
Thanks for the responses both. For the situation I'm in, adding additional amp(s) wouldn't be practical and swapping it for the present gtr-amp would sure be an approach when I'd rely more on the VG-side of things, but presently it'd be for occasional use, so the main thing has to remain the (admittedly gorgeous) sound I'm getting with the 'non-emulated' stuff, despite I'm sure respecting the 'emulated' things.

The present gtr-amp is a non-FX-loop SF Fender combo, and I thought I had tried setting the passive EQ as flat as possible. Haven't tried the reverb-return input there, but have to have a look at the schematic if that is shaped as well.    I guess 'as flat as possible' isn't enough here, since there'll always remain some shaping.

(The gtr-amp compensation comes to mind here that is employed by some gtr-loopers, I assume these employ some deliberate reverse-EQ shaping)

Long story short, things didn't fell into place directly as some things manage to do, but that's simply more experimenting & adjusting required - doesn't say much yet about where this all can rise to.

Bye!

Elantric

#6
QuoteThe present gtr-amp is a non-FX-loop SF Fender combo,

FWIW - from past experience, to obtain the flat'est available frequency response from a '68-'79 silver face Fender Twin Reverb set

Treble on "5"

Mid on "10"

Bass on "5"

Brite Switch "off"

Set Volume to taste   

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/846390-can-someone-explain-fender-tone-stack-interaction-newbie.html

QuoteBass and treble are boost and cut, midrange is cut only. Diming the Mid is the same as not having a mid control on other Fender amps. Approximation of flat (no guitar amp is ever really flat) is 5-10-5.

MotorBongo

Quote from: Elantric on November 14, 2014, 04:12:03 PM
FWIW - from past experience, to obtain the flat'est available frequency response from a '68-'79 silver face Fender Twin Reverb set

Treble on "3"

Mid on "8"

Bass on "5"

Brite Switch "off"

Set Volume to taste

Thanks for the suggestion. Used settings based on the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator (see attached pic), but everything depends of course on amp & variations etc. Actually, the component-values in that calculator may not be my SF amp values, since the settings you provided would have been more tailored to my amp (indeed a ~'70 amp) but give a dip - so reasoning back the TSC must be off.

Best regards

MotorBongo

FWIW, checked the AB763-values as used the TSC, they're OK.   OK, FWIW, some toying around & seeing which settings sounds best.

Elantric

#9
I used to set the Bias on Tube Amps for many LA sessions players as my day gig   -and I would use the old Jack Darr 'Guitar Amp Handbook" recommended method of using a sine wave generator and I would always tweak the Fender Twin's tone controls for the clean sine wave with no distortion, before adjusting the Bias   - the Tone settings I posted are ballpark of what I recall exhibited the cleanest sine wave and flat response

http://www.diyguitarist.com/Misc/J_Darr.htm

http://www.diyguitarist.com/PDF_Files/j_darr6.pdf

http://www.diyguitarist.com/PDF_Files/j_darr8.pdf




But read the entire thread here
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/846390-can-someone-explain-fender-tone-stack-interaction-newbie.html

But know that  even if the Fender Twin's Tone controls are set "flat" you still must battle the typical peaks and valleys and limited frequency response of Guitar Speakers!   
http://www.vettaville.com/tech-pages.htm


http://www.vettaville.com/documents/VETTA_CAB_SIMS1.pdf

MotorBongo

Thanks, nice. While I sure won't argue vs experience and real-life measurements, entering both the sets you gave above each show a pretty deep dip in the TSC (your second set given in the plot).

(B-M-T:  5-8-3  &  5-10-5 )   

This is not to criticise your settings, it's just that it's surprising that the calculator can be this far off & shows this big mid-dip. 

I DO realize though that the tone stack is just a part of the total chain. Better result would be to measure & adjust the total amp & speaker for as flat a response as possible.  Hope this can be achieved with the Normal channel of the Twin Reverb, so that 'non-emulated' can live on at the Vibrato channel. Perhaps some added EQ in front of the Normal channel.


Have a good weekend all

Elantric

#11
I prefer to use real world oscilloscope, and spectrum analyzer  and ears ;)
QuoteThis is not to criticise your settings, it's just that it's surprising that the calculator can be this far off & shows this big mid-dip. 



Mid dip in the preamp is there to counteract the huge mid spike in your "non flat response" guitar Speaker

But know the sound we all  love from a Fender Twin  - but know its Guitar Speaker will create a major battle for use with any of the Guitar Modeling  / Guitar Synth products we talk about here.