Are there any loopers that don't produce a gap between segments?

Started by aliensporebomb, June 15, 2013, 08:10:20 AM

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aliensporebomb

I've been using my EHX Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai for around five year now and though it's great for what it is it's not really suitable for doing rhythmic type loops. 

There is a gap between segments if you say for instance were to record the phrase "one two three four" where you punch in on one and punch out at the conclusion of four there's a gap like this:

"one two three four" <gap> "one two three four".  You can try to click those footswitches as fast as your feet can click them and there's definetely a gap that's just long enough that makes doing drums or rhythmic segments impossible or difficult.  That's why that last rehearsal was about the best I could get out of it.

It appears not so much a design flaw as a hardware limitation that didn't really appear when I did longer ambient swaths of sound. 

I was considering an RC-300 or Pigtronix Infinity but I will need to be able to try these devices to see if they would work for me.  Any ideas?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

rolandvg99

I've tried Mobius VST/Standalone and Loopy HD on the iPad and both do pretty well in the gap department. Thing is Mobius is powerfull, but too prone to crashes. Loopy have been pretty solid and I think it'll be perfect when the iConnectMidi4+ arrives. Also considering the RC-505 as the RC-300+FC-300=NASA command centre.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

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germanicus

I used to own the rc50, and it had this problem.

I use a jamman stereo now, and it works very well, no significant gaps.

Havent tried the rc300.
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aliensporebomb

Thanks for the suggestions.  I've been using the Augustus Loop looper which is a VST/Audio Units looper but that means carting a computer onstage and the requisite FCB1010 (which I don't own) to control it.  So I'm looking at hardware units at this time.

I'd heard about the RC-50s issues in this area before so I'll be avoiding that.  I've heard the 300 doesn't have the issue but it will take a while to save up for that beast.  Still unknown the Pigtronix Infinity and some of the other newer loopers like the EHX 45000.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Zymos

The RC-300 can be completely seamless, if that's what you are wondering about....


ffata

and here also he shows more of his laptop based MainStage rig.
I know this is a request for hardware info, but his looping is on the Boomerang III.
Maybe this will be helpful.

http://tonefiend.com/recording/a-loop-oriented-laptop-guitar-rig/

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

GovernorSilver

Timing seems to be fine on Octatrack with a MIDI pedal, but I can't tell how accurate the timing is because I'm way out of practicing in timing my pedal stomps.  :P

aliensporebomb

Update:  I've gotten a lot better on my EHX pedal but it requires.....practice.  Just like playing guitar.  It's VERY unforgiving versus some other loopers.

I've been looking at and pricing other loopers at local stores.   My requirements this time are more ambitious - need more loop time, need undo, need more than 1 looper onboard, would be great to have a USB port to offload loops that worked live for later release. 

Here are the loopers and their prices I've found:

DD20 $239
Jam Man $299
FlashbackDE $169
Flashback x4 $249
Deep Blue Delay (maybe) $196
Vox Delay Lab $230
Boomerang E155 $415
Boomerang 3 $470
RC300 $550
EHX 45000 $475
EHX 45000 Controller $120

Flashback X4 has a 40 second looper, USB, undo, more forgiving punch.  Many other delay features.
Boomerang 3 looks great but it seems like very small buttons and form factor - it's not much bigger than my Stereo Memory Man but has 3 loops plus one "bonus" feature.  I didn't see USB or MIDI though although I believe it has MIDI.
RC-300 has 3 loops + undo plus sync with my VG-99 (as in Per Haars video) plus usb and ability to save/offload.
EHX 45000 has 4 loops + undo but that extra controller to use it live brings it to around $600 and seems more suited for a studio tabletop type use.

More later.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Dont forget the concept of using an array of syncronized Digitech Jam Man Solo XT's.


http://www.digitech.com/en/products/jamman-solo-xt#


This July 11-13, at Summer NAMM 2013 in Nashville Digitech will release a whole new updated line of JamMan XT loopers with "JamSync" jacks cascade several in an array of loopers - need another track, just add another small Jam Man Solo XT

I shot a video at Winter NAMM 2013

aliensporebomb

#11
I just got a message back from those folks the day before yesterday that they've managed to hook up 15 of those in the lab and they work and synchronize fine together.  Clever idea.

Thanks for the news about the NAMM release.  Might hold off a bit.  That guy in the video was great.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

rolandvg99

To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

aliensporebomb

Just a clarification that I was looking for hardware loopers.  If I was going to go software wise I'd go to Augustus Loop as I've been using that in the studio for years and it's fantastic.   That can be found at http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/augustusloop.html




I'm having better luck with the EHX SMMH but it's pretty unforgiving when it comes to non-ambient structures.  My live show coming up should be amusing as I may have technical issues as a result.  I hope to replace that as a looper and get it back to working as a regular old delay again.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

rolandvg99

I'm also into hardware for performance and stability. I have ordered a Boss RC-505, but pulled the trigger a little late and have to wait until August for it's arrival due to high demand. Bummer...
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

aliensporebomb

I'm intrigued with the 505 as well but they're sold before I can even see one to try it out.  The RC-300 may be what I end up with given my current setup.  Thinking.  I've got time.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

rolandvg99

Opted for the 505 after some heavy back and forth thinking. 8 assignable controls is just enough for my usage and I'm planning to customize my Rockcase to add these 8 switches in a quick setup/tear down config with my FC-300. The RC-300 is about the same size as the FC and weighing 8 lb which certainly biased my choice.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Cricket

I'm pretty new to it, but I've been quite happy with the RC-300 so far.   It will quantize your loops under some circumstances, but even if you have the loops set to "free," it will switch seamlessly from one to the other as you record and/or play back.   3 loops per bank.   I haven't tried but I seriously doubt it would be seamless if you switched banks.

An example.   

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8823.0

Not trying to pimp my post, and it's not "live looping" per se, as I recorded the 3 backing loops over time, then played and sang live over that.  Still, gaps have not been an issue for me.

Works well for all 3 loops simultaneously or single track playback.   

The example is a worked-out straight ahead cover, but I've used it for "weird" and/or ambient and been happy too.  You can do a lot with 3 hours of memory - stereo or mono, still 3 hours.

It does have quirks, but overall I'm very pleased.

Look on ebay.  I got mine for $439, free shipping, "used" but I'll be damned if I can see how.   Seemed new in the box to me exc the box had been opened.  See that quite frequently.   Got my 55 the same way.   $600 w GK3 early on.  Advertised as "floor model' but appeared brand new. 

aliensporebomb

Looking into some more and I keep looking back to the RC-300:

-EHX 45000 - the majority tracks are monophonic and there is one stereo track.  That won't work for my purposes.  everything I do is as stereo as possible.  The unit with optional footswitch is more expensive than the RC-300.

-TC Electronic Triple Play x4 was another possibility at around the $250 USD price point.  Some of reports on the internet of footswitches failing and the several different reports of the unit forgetting the downloaded presets repeatedly.   That has a 40 second looper with undo, IOS integration, a usb port and external wallwart operation plus a lot of cool delay options.   It's the right size - slightly larger   Might need a few software updates to get stable but the footswitch issue seems to point to hardware. 

-Still haven't seen the Pigtronix Infinity in person - it looks good but it's still kind of an unknown.

Seems like the RC-300 would be the easiest for me to get at this time and Per Haar's video makes it seem very do-able to get it integrated into my existing setup.  Still thinking.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Cricket

I'd be the last to say the RC-300 is perfect, but I'm happy with it so far.

Since you were talking rhythmic things and this might apply, I will say it's difficult, though not impossible, to get the 300 to accomodate stuff with changing meters.   I did once manage to get loops going for Led Boots, for example, with the main part in 4 and the bridge/outro in 7, but I've forgotten exactly what I had to do setting-wise.

And obviously, that's relatively simple meter-wise.

It took some doing to get them to work together.  And I had to play in the drum parts without a click.   If you turn on the internal rhythm, even just set to hat for time (why do these gadgets with internal drum machines never seem to include just plain metronome click?) it will quantize your loops and round them off.  So if you had it set to 4, the loop in 7 would get a gap in it where the RC rounded off the 7/8 to 4/4.

So you can set the loops to "free," but you have to be careful where you choose to begin and end them.  There are sometimes issues that arise that have to do with loop sync/tempo sync that I don't fully understand yet.   I've found ways to get around them but I'm not clear enough on what I did to explain it to anyone else.

I'm sure there are others here who know what I mean and can explain it better than me at the moment.

Point is, it wants to set a loop tempo which it will do, either based on your rhythm settings or by calculating it itself.   Best I can say is sometimes this is not so good.  Again, I haven't quite worked out for myself exactly how to respond to this quirk.

Still, I'm happy with it.   I checked out a bunch of loopers myself and figured the RC300 would get me where I wanted to go.  And I'm of the mind that, if you've done your homework, you should just make a decision and concentrate on getting the most out of whatever gear you have as you can.

Feel the same way about the 55.  For all it's foolish "non-features," apparently designed by a non-musician engineer making his best guess as to what an actual performing guitarist might want  (whose idea was that silly "sound style" business?), I still love the thing.  I wish it were better designed, even so... I'm more interested in all the things it can do rather than grousing about all the things it can't.

aliensporebomb

For a long time it was neck and neck between the Pigtronix and the RC-300 because of Per Haar's video and the features on the Infinity versus the 300 were similar and compelling.

But watching Per's video where he syncs tempo on the GR-55 to the tap tempo on the RC made me realize it would work on the VG-99 too.  Plus the storage capacity on the RC-300 was much higher than some of the loopers I was looking at.

It's more expensive but you get what you pay for too.  The biggest problem with my current setup is that there's no way to store interesting loops that I've improvised during live shows for later perusal later if they prove to be interesting. 

So, still working on it but will probably end up with an RC-300 in a week or two if all goes well.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

aliensporebomb

#22
Then I watched the top video in this page here and makes that Pigtronix Infinity look awfully attractive:
http://pigtronix.com/products/infinity-looper/

The 24-bit 48 khz audio is awfully nice too since I'm doing more than just rock guitar sounds.  The upload/download sounds pretty nice as well.  Grumble.  The RC-300 is 16-bit 44.1 khz sadly whereas its predecessor was 24-bit..  Not a total deal breaker since Per's stuff sounds pretty good but....thinking.

Thinking.  Looks like Pigtronix has supplied 3 major free downloadable software upgrades to this looper since it was released that adds features to the unit whereas I think Roland only has released one for the RC-300.   Thinking.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Cricket

Heh, heh.  I agonize over every major purchase myself.   Think away.

Even so, whatever you wind up with will have things you love and things you don't, and that seems to be the way of it.

Funny.  From your vids I'd imagine we're both of the age where we can remember when 16 seconds was a crazy-long delay.  No storing... Hell, at one point I had a delay with 2 seconds that folks thought was pretty cool way back when.

Cricket

Hm.  Interesting....

Things I like about the Pigtronix:

Loop aging!  Cool... missing feature from just about every looper.  Frippertronics, here we come.
Sound quality
Expandable memory
Smaller footprint

Things not so much:

Not sure I could do what I like with only two loops.

Not sure about the loop sync... does loop 2 have to be 1-6 x the length of loop 1?  Sounds like it but maybe not.  I do like it on the rc that the loops can be any length, recorded in any order, synced at the beginning of the longest loop or independent tempos.

Expression pedal looks to be sold separately.  Ka-ching.

Well... it's always something.  I look at the 505... also cool, but not a floor pedal, so then what?  An FC?   Cripes.   I feel like I'm tap dancing sometimes already between the 55 and the RC.  Haven't found the ideal placement yet so I can play and not go off-mic to look at the floor.

Well, my bed's made (for now).  Just musing....