Learn to Program Roland/Boss MultiFX Processors

Started by Elantric, January 25, 2008, 05:49:04 AM

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Elantric

We probably need a wiki - since Roland has not been able to educate the masses regarding the main feature of COSM DSP Modeling 13 pin processing V-Guitar systems that have been kicking around since 1995

Must join VGuitarforums to see the pdf files attached to each post below
Roland / Boss employ same FX naming conventions for decades
details are in older user created docs for prior Boss / Roland gear

https://smallpdf.com/blog/translate-pdf

https://www.scribd.com/doc/7297659/Boss-GT-8-Brilliance

https://www.scribd.com/doc/6727925/The-Boss-Gt-5-by-Simon-Lees

But remember these basic facts

With all Roland products, Anytime you encounter the term "COSM (Composite Object Sound Modeling) Processing " - this means near instantaneous zero latency processing - without the mis triggering or latency delays of "GUITAR to MIDI" Systems for guitars.
HEX COSM is NOT Guitar to MIDI or GUITAR to PCM SYNTH ( both suffer latency delays that many cannot tolerate.


http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/COSM.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_modelling_synthesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_Corporation
QuoteCOSM: Composite Object Sound Modeling
Once a musical instrument generates sound vibrations, it reaches the human ear through various mediating, objects, each of which significantly affects the sound. The material and configuration of the instrument, the electric/magnetic amplifying system, the air and the reverberation of the room all affect the final sound. Sound modeling, the latest DSP technology, "virtually" reconstructs these objects. Roland's breakthrough Composite Object Sound Modeling (COSM) uses the advantages of multiple modeling methods and succeeds in accurately emulating existing sounds, as well as producing sounds that have never before been created.

http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html





Roland  V-Guitar  products with hexaphonic COSM processing (using a GK Divided pickup) which support guitar modeling, Alt Tunings with near zero latency:
1995 Roland VG-8 VGuitar floor unit ($2500 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/442

1998 Roland VG-8EX VGuitar floor unit ($1900 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/443


2000 Roland VG-88 VGuitar floor unit with support for normal guitars too ($1300 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/242

2001 Roland VGA-7 VGuitar Stereo Amp ($1500 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/251


2007 Roland VG-99 VGuitar system  with DUAL COSM modeling, Guitar to MIDI and support for normal guitars too ($1300 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/849


2007 Fender VG Strat ($1600 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/fendervgstrat.htm

Boss GT-10 Realtime Effects Control
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GT10WS01.pdf


2011 Roland GR-55 with Guitar to PCM, Guitar to MIDI, and COSM modeling  ($699 MSRP retail at release)
(only the COSM section of the GR-55 has near zero latency, other modes will have latency delays)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1148

2012 Fender/ Roland G5 VG STRATOCASTER ($1700 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1188

2014 Boss GP-10 with COSM modeling, Guitar to MIDI (over USB), and COSM "Re-Guitaring" with multiple audio channels as a USB Audio Interface (one channel per string) ($399 MSRP retail at release)
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1319


Roland COSM  - In Depth understanding can be gained by reading these in depth documents on Rolands top COSM product of 2004, the Roland GS-10.


Roland GS-10 COSM dynamic processor
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88.0;attach=68

Roland GS-10 COSM Speaker
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88.0;attach=69


Many concepts can be directly applied to the VG-99 / GR-55 / GP-10 /SY-1000

(log in and look below for the download links)

"The Roland GS-10's  Preamp/Speaker  effect contains sophisticated amplifier,  speaker and microphone
simulations: all in all it is associated with about thirty parameters.
In order to work with this complicated effect in an intelligent manner, it is vital to know in some
detail what all these parameters actually achieve and how they interact. Unfortunately, the Owner's
Manual gets no further than its familiarly terse descriptions.
This document tries to fill in some of these gaps, by providing detailed explanations and analyses.
The document first explains a few relevant basic audio concepts. Then it outlines Preamp/Speaker's
overall effect structure. After that it tackles the various effect sections and their parameters one by one,
aided by numerous frequency response plots. Then it discusses in considerable detail many aspects of
the individual emulated preamp types. "




If you want to obtain more incite and better explanations of how Roland gear works - review the OWNERS MANUALS for the earliest examples of current gear.

For example the GR-55 and GP-10 Owners Manuals simply list all the various FX functions and Control Features, but totally omit any explanation or examples of how to actually use these controls or how they interact.

Here is the 1999 Roland VG-88 Owners Manual  - ITS A MUST READ!  - it lays a better foundation with explanations of how the Internal Wave Pedal and Expression Pedal Min/Max FX range,Assign Hold, etc,  work.
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/1811457/VG-88_e5.pdf














Elantric

#1
Boss_GT-x_Set-up_v02.pdf
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88.0;attach=462


I feel its a "must read" as it represents many years of COSM Knowledge of prior Roland GT-x Processors - explains many COSM AMP. and FX Routing ideas which the VG-99 inherited.

(Must be a member of VGuitarforums and "logged in" to download this attached document)

Simon Lees GT-5 EQ Setups
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88.0;attach=20458
 

Elantric

#2
Boss_GT-8 Brilliance.pdf
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88.0;attach=464


I feel this brilliant document is definitely a  "must read" as it represents many years of COSM Knowledge of Roland GT-8 Processors - explains many COSM AMP. and FX Routing ideas which the VG-99  / GR-55 inherited.

(Must be a member of VGuitarforums and "logged in" to download this attached document)

s0c9

#3
If you're a NOOB to Roland's COSM modeling - like me :)

[DISCLAIMER: although not a noob to modeling in general]

I highly recommend all of the GS10*, GT-X* and [especially] the GT-8* .pdf's above..
Incredibly good reading and insight into how to get the best from Roland / Boss COSM

Elantric

#4
Typical Amp, Cab, Mic Frequency Response Curves.

Although I developed these plots a few years ago with a Line6 Vetta  - the basic characteristic "EQ Curve" of most popular Amps, Cabs, and Mics are documented here - to get you in the ball park. I think anyone trying to get a decent guitar tone will be better equipped if they understand the Frequency response differences / relationships between:

Amp Heads:  a Fender Twin, and a Marshall JCM-800, or a Peavey 5150.

Speaker Cabs:  A Celestion Vintage 30, Jenson C10Q, or a JBL D130

Mics: Shure SM-57, Seinheisser 421, Neumann U-47 - (both On Axis and Off Axis!)

Its not off topic to refer to these EQ plots when trying to emulate these sounds with a VG-99 - I view each of the companies (Line6, Roland, Digitech, Axsys) as leapfrogging each other  - its more a function of "who's got the faster DSP and highest bit depth this year?


http://web.archive.org/web/20070404025024/http://www.vettaville.com/vetta_frequency_plots.htm

(Must be a member of VGuitarforums and "logged in" to download the attached documents)

Elantric

#5
I must add this link as a site worth reading. it is Ben Vesco's ToneMonster web site - chock full of great articles on nailing guitar tone.

http://www.benvesco.com/blog/line-6-amp-modelers/

Some may know him as "malhavok" from the Line6 Forum. He's been a great resource of help on guitar modeling tips for 10 years now.     
Its true its written from the perspective of a Line6 user - but so many techniques described in the artlicles there are directly applicable to the VG-99. After all - EQ is EQ,  Delay is Delay, etc, etc. 

Elantric

#6
More tips which are equally useful on the VG-99 / GR-55 / GP-10
http://web.archive.org/web/20091227013712/https://www.xycl.de/en/guitar-effects/boss-gt.html


mbenigni

#7
Starting a new thread to focus on amp modeling and - where directly applicable (e.g. overdrive) - the MFX block.  So far this aspect seems to be the most challenging, with several users (myself included) indicating it's not up to snuff.  While the GR-55 isn't likely to supplant an AxeFx or a high-end VST anytime soon, I'm starting to think it can be prodded into giving up some decent tones if you know what you're doing.  And I'm sure a lot of you already do, so I'm here to compare notes and ultimately get some help.  :)

So, after a couple of hours prodding around (with the questionable UI slowing me down), I started to think maybe there were some decent amp sounds in here after all.  As others have already said, the speaker (and mic) simulation is pretty weak, and I haven't changed my mind there, but the amps aren't merely the glorified distortion pedals I'd taken them for early on.

Mainly, I think they're just organized and presented very poorly.  In a nutshell, I'd call it "A Tale of Too Many Gains".  There a million and one ways to accidentally overdrive the amp chain as a whole, and the amps themselves already have plenty of gain and largely redundant, unrealistic, gain "switches".  A good argument can be made that this lends more variety to the amps on offer, but I actually think it has the opposite effect, diminishing the sense of identity between amps by blurring their functionality too much into one another, and too often presenting them with so much gain that they sound like a parade of Boss DS-1's. 

The fact is that if you stick to the "low" gain switch setting, with low gain values, you start to reveal some of the character of these amps.  Perhaps not so much as the gloriously extra-broken tones of Guitar Rig, but something to differentiate at any rate.  Why there needs to be a gain switch at all, versus perhaps a wider gain knob, particularly when boosts and overdrives are available, is beyond me.  It seems like an effort to dazzle with BS.  If you eliminate the gain switches and take a straight look at these amps, you might find a half dozen good - and genuinely distinct - models (vs. 40 models x 3 gain settings = GAAAH!)  Then you could apply additional DS/OD effects as needed, in an intuitive way.  (But of course Roland is in no hurry to reduce the number of bulleted "features" on a sales brochure...)

The problem is actually compounded by all of the mixing options, some of which seem excessive, and all of which impact gain characteristics and dynamics.  For instance, it's off-putting to have to consider the guitar level on the tone page, and then amp level on the effects page, and then the mic level on the amp page, before you even start to consider amp gain and (grr) gain sw.  When I build out a custom rig of disparate amps and effects, or interfaces and software, I expect to have to match levels etc before it all works right, but when I buy an integrated package I expect the mfr to have done some of that homework for me, and gotten me into the right ballpark.  Here, I feel like I'm correcting a lot of bad decisions re: levels, and it's all the worse because I'm working without meters to help identify problems.  I'm not arguing for the dumbing down of the product here, I'm just arguing for the elimination of redundancy to make it easier to zero in on the best sounds.

Anyway, with all the philosophy (i.e. "rant") out of my system, the bottom line is that things start to emerge if I back off on a lot of the levels, set the dreaded "gain sw." on low, and start examining these amps from bottom (of the available gain) to top.  Alot of them still sound like different flavors of vanilla to me, but some are actually pretty cool.  (I could see myself making friends with "Deluxe Crunch".)

The other good news is that, despite the block diagram, the OD/DST stuff does seem to integrate with the amps properly.  I don't think this is just a matter of clever EQ to compensate for improper order.  I think the block diagram is just over-simplified, where in fact the MFX and AMP blocks are programmed together in whichever order suits the effect.  The "Natural OD" pairs pretty well with the "MS1959 I+II" (again, with gain rolled way back) to produce a playable, chimey, dynamic tone.

So... I'll need to find a good starting point for guitar level, amp level, mic level etc.  Will be interested in hearing everyone else's tendencies with these.

germanicus

Good points!

Ive also found that (so far) it hasnt been an issue having my OD after the amp in the signal chain. Ive been going through and attempting to recreate some of my vg99 tones in the gr55.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

zacflame

Are u using cosm guitar or your own pickups. Just today I started fooling with just amp models, kept the gain on medium and was pleased. A/b it with my lespaul, which is what the gk3 is on and my own guitar definitely had more punch. Only thing is I could not get a sound with the gk set to guitar only, I'm sure just a setting somewhere I'm missing

mbenigni

Hi, zacflame.  I've listened to a bit of both (COSM guitar models and guitar input/magnetic pickups) of course, but for purposes of this discussion, I'm testing the magnetic pickups on the guitar.  I'm familiar with these, and using the 1/4" jack eliminates a lot of variables in terms of GK installation and GR-55 configuration, so this is the better control scenario with which to judge the amps.

ddlooping

Quote from:  zacflame on February 11, 2011, 01:11:02 PM
Only thing is I could not get a sound with the gk set to guitar only, I'm sure just a setting somewhere I'm missing

Might be worth checking the following... ;)

Quote from: musicman65 on February 13, 2011, 10:13:31 PM
... If your volume for the mag pups or the piezo acoustic change with the hex volume, its because the hex (gk) volume is programed to control overall patch volume. Change it to control only the COSM guitar and/or PCM tones so it doesn't turn everything down.

Unfortunately, thats how most of the factory patches are setup. The other issue with gk vol assigned to patch vol is when you move the mag/both/gk-hex switch to mag, it elctrically causes the gk pot to output a 0 (off). Thats how its hard wired (pretty sure). This causes patch vol to go to 0 with the default programming, making mag only impossible. Reassign the gk vol to something besides patch volume to get your mags and piezo acoustic to work.
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

SLICK

Well I spent last night trying to tackle the Amp sims and get something that is usable.
I had a shot at the 'low' gain sw but just couldn't get anything gritty enough for my purposes on any of the Amp models that I liked the sound of. Also liking the sound of the Deluxe Crunch and SLND on the Mid gain setting. These amps sound a bit more open to me.
I have always struggled to get an amp tone that I can bare to listen to loud out of the Boss equipment I have owned and in the past I have been content to use the OD/ Dist section and run the unit into the front of an amp. Unfortunately with the Gr-55 this isn't an option as using a distortion would take up 50% of the available effects blocks and stop me from accessing the wah a the same time.
I would say that in the end I managed to get some way to an OK tone but I had to really dial back the treble and most of the mid EQ on the amp to stop it from ice picking my ears!
My biggest concern is the dependency of the amp sims on whatever sound reinforcement you are using.
For better or worse I will probably end up playing into the front of a mid sized combo amp, a Laney LC30II at home and whatever is available at practice rooms or gigs.
I know that idealy you would run the gR-55 through a FRFR PA or similar but I find it better to only have the vocals running through any PA for full volume practice purposes and need to maintain the same type of setup for a gig.
In my experience using the Amp sim  block for distortion the tone varies wildly from amp to amp, much more so than the Dost / OD effects seem to.
So I guess I'm still not convinced that this is going to work until I get to play at gig/ practice levels.
Parker fly deluxe,
Roland GR-55,
Laney LC30II

mbenigni

QuoteI would say that in the end I managed to get some way to an OK tone but I had to really dial back the treble and most of the mid EQ on the amp to stop it from ice picking my ears!

Someone else addressed this point in another thread.  They basically advised that you cut the treble considerably in the amp stage, and then compensate by boosting those frequencies in the master EQ block down the line.  This is in some ways similar to my issues with all the interdependencies between levels, and I think it would be a lot easier to deal with if Roland had provided some editing software for the GR-55.  Trying to dial in EQ on one page, and then complement that change with a setting 4 or 5 pages away, and repeat ad nauseum, it all gets a little crazy.

QuoteFor better or worse I will probably end up playing into the front of a mid sized combo amp, a Laney LC30II at home and whatever is available at practice rooms or gigs.

Same here, I think - I just picked up a Mesa Express 5:25 for this very reason.  I only wish Roland had programmed for a third STRUCT configuration where one of the effect blocks could be in series with the Guitar Out.  That would make programming much more intuitive for those of us who'd like to run to the front of a guitar amp, with appropriate guitar effects, while also running synths to a P.A. or the same amp's effects loop return.

QuoteI know that idealy you would run the gR-55 through a FRFR PA or similar but I find it better to only have the vocals running through any PA for full volume practice purposes and need to maintain the same type of setup for a gig.

One of those things where the best theoretical solution doesn't work out to be the best practical solution, for a number of reasons.  I've been struggling with this for years, but at this point I agree - let the vocals have the P.A. to themselves.  Guitars don't play nicely with others.

SLICK

Quote from:  mbenigni on February 16, 2011, 07:04:32 AM
Someone else addressed this point in another thread.  They basically advised that you cut the treble considerably in the amp stage, and then compensate by boosting those frequencies in the master EQ block down the line.   
Yeah it's a good plan except for one little thing.....
All of the 4 tones (2 PCM, one modelled guitar and one analogue guitar) ALL go through that EQ at the end of the chain. So I kill the mid and highs on my amp only to boost them again in the EQ section but unfortunatly now my 'rock organ' sounds like its been sliced in two and actually forced into my ear canals  :o
Of course you could use the EQ in the MOD block but then at the expense of any of the effects that you wanted to use in there for your PCM or modelled tone.
Parker fly deluxe,
Roland GR-55,
Laney LC30II

DeRigueur

I've been going through the presets and one particular guitar tone jumped out at me.
It's Rhythm 08-3 RockInCathedral: Mod Strat, Matchless Drive, and Clean Boost.  I think it's very usable just the way it is.
There was concern about the location of the OD/DS being after the amp in the fx chain, but there doesn't seem to be any problem here.
When I get time I want to duplicate the settings on my GT-10 to see how the sound compares with the GR-55.  I have a VG strat and assume its strat model is the "CL" strat.  That might make a difference.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

pjmuck

Quote from:  mbenigni on February 16, 2011, 07:04:32 AM
Same here, I think - I just picked up a Mesa Express 5:25 for this very reason.  I only wish Roland had programmed for a third STRUCT configuration where one of the effect blocks could be in series with the Guitar Out.  That would make programming much more intuitive for those of us who'd like to run to the front of a guitar amp, with appropriate guitar effects, while also running synths to a P.A. or the same amp's effects loop return.

To me, this is THE biggest oversight with the GR-55 now. The current setup makes the GUITAR OUT practically useless unless you've got additional outboard gear to process it before going into your amp. (And if you've already resigned yourself to additional processing, then screw the GR-55, keep your VG99/Variax/Line 6 Spider, etc. for COSM guitars/amps/effects, and get your PCMs from a dedicated unit like a GR-33/GR-20 and just midi additional soft/hard synths you might otherwise be missing from not having a GR-55).  >:(
Live gear:

Boss GM-800
Boss GKC-AD
Boss Katana Artist 100
Fender Mustang GTX100
Roland GR-33
Liquid Foot Jr. midi foot controller
Boss EV-5
Godin LGX-SA guitar (lefty)
Line 6 Variax 500 guitar (lefty)
Carvin LB50 w GK3B

tracy

Quote from:  pjmuck on February 16, 2011, 01:36:59 PM
To me, this is THE biggest oversight with the GR-55 now. The current setup makes the GUITAR OUT practically useless unless you've got additional outboard gear to process it before going into your amp.
But isn't this the whole point of the GUITAR OUT; the ability to send a dry signal to other gear? At least that's what I used it for on the GR-20.
@tracyevans    •     http://www.exhibitry.com

pjmuck

#18
Quote from:  tracy on February 16, 2011, 05:14:52 PM
But isn't this the whole point of the GUITAR OUT; the ability to send a dry signal to other gear? At least that's what I used it for on the GR-20.

True, but the GR-20's a dedicated guitar synth, so it makes sense. The GR-55 is now BOTH guitar synth and COSM sounds, or a scaled back hybrid of GR/VG technology. It's almost pointless to even offer users the option of setting up their amp preferences (i.e. line out/phones, JC-120, combo, etc), when you can't even route COSM sounds or effects to them independently of PCM sounds. You're certainly not going to run your PCM sounds to an amp, so giving users the limited choice of routing half the COSM technology and real guitar to an amp (unless you're using additional processing gear) and the other half to a PA seems not very well thought out, IMO.
Live gear:

Boss GM-800
Boss GKC-AD
Boss Katana Artist 100
Fender Mustang GTX100
Roland GR-33
Liquid Foot Jr. midi foot controller
Boss EV-5
Godin LGX-SA guitar (lefty)
Line 6 Variax 500 guitar (lefty)
Carvin LB50 w GK3B

tracy

Quote from:  pjmuck on February 16, 2011, 05:25:26 PM
... so giving users the limited choice of routing half the COSM technology and real guitar to an amp (unless you're using additional processing gear) and the other half to a PA seems not very well thought out, IMO.
Agreed. Mine has not arrived yet so I am still trying to wrap my head around output routing. The best idea I have seen so far is Dry to GUITAR OUT, COSM to LEFT OUT, Synth to RIGHT OUT.

Does the USB offer these channels separately when going into a computer, or is it a stereo mix of COSM & SYNTH?
@tracyevans    •     http://www.exhibitry.com

gumtown

Quote from:  tracy on February 16, 2011, 05:34:06 PM
Agreed. Mine has not arrived yet so I am still trying to wrap my head around output routing. The best idea I have seen so far is Dry to GUITAR OUT, COSM to LEFT OUT, Synth to RIGHT OUT.

Does the USB offer these channels separately when going into a computer, or is it a stereo mix of COSM & SYNTH?
Stereo mix, but again you could pan your modelling and synth apart.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#21
QuoteTo me, this is THE biggest oversight with the GR-55 now. The current setup makes the GUITAR OUT practically useless unless you've got additional outboard gear to process it before going into your amp.

Specifically on the GR-55 - the Guitar OUT can be configured to be your "Variax OUT"  - with GR-55 generated Guitar Modeling and DSP Alt tunings - use the GR-55 Guitar OUT to feed your Kemper / AXE-FX - leave the GR-55 to output only PCM Synth tones


QuoteIt's almost pointless to even offer users the option of setting up their amp preferences (i.e. line out/phones, JC-120, combo, etc), when you can't even route COSM sounds or effects to them independently of PCM sounds.

Maybe someone can do a simple Test:

1) Feed the GR-55 output to a pair of self powered studio monitors or full range amplification system   

2) Set the Output Select type to: LINE/PHONES (See page 12 on the GR-5 Owner's manual)

3) Select the GR-55 Preset  02-1 RICH STRINGS,  that has strictly the PCM Tones  - no COSM guitar, NO Normal Guitar -

4) Play your Guitar with GK-3, and listen to the overral timbre and EQ colorization.

5) Change the GR-55 Output Select to "Combo"

6) Play your Guitar with GK-3, and listen to the overral timbre and EQ colorization, and report back if this sounds different than what what heard in Step #4.


If we are lucky, perhaps the "Output Select" type only operates on the COSM AMPs /Cabs, and not the GR-55 PCM tones.

   

musicman65

Quote from:  pjmuck on February 16, 2011, 05:25:26 PM....You're certainly not going to run your PCM sounds to an amp, so giving users the limited choice of routing half the COSM technology and real guitar to an amp (unless you're using additional processing gear) and the other half to a PA seems not very well thought out, IMO.

To me, it seems a lot of new users are struggling with this. It makes no more sense to send a modeled guitar and amp to a guitar amp than it does to send a PCM tone. Both are full range, flat response signals that should be reproduced by an amp as exactly and uncolored as possible. The modeler users that have adopted the use of full range, flat respose amplification are having less trouble. Thats how modelers are intended to be used. Yes, there are settings to help compensate when using a guitar amp, but its never quite the same. I think its there to acomidate guitar amp users. I've used a lot of amplification methods since the Pod days and the best tone was always with my studio monitors or headphones....until I gave up fighting it and got a full range, flat response solution for live use. Modeling users have the same needs as keyboard players.

Its a case of jamming a square peg in a round hole...it won't ever fit quite right. At least it didn't for me....

of course, YMMV....

musicman65

pjmuck

Quote from:  musicman65 on February 16, 2011, 07:47:35 PM
To me, it seems a lot of new users are struggling with this. It makes no more sense to send a modeled guitar and amp to a guitar amp than it does to send a PCM tone. Both are full range, flat response signals that should be reproduced by an amp as exactly and uncolored as possible. The modeler users that have adopted the use of full range, flat respose amplification are having less trouble. Thats how modelers are intended to be used. Yes, there are settings to help compensate when using a guitar amp, but its never quite the same. I think its there to acomidate guitar amp users. I've used a lot of amplification methods since the Pod days and the best tone was always with my studio monitors or headphones....until I gave up fighting it and got a full range, flat response solution for live use. Modeling users have the same needs as keyboard players.

Its a case of jamming a square peg in a round hole...it won't ever fit quite right. At least it didn't for me....

of course, YMMV....

musicman65

Just to clarify, I am NOT a new user of COSM/guitar synth technology. My current setup is a GR-33/Boss GT-Pro/Atomic Reactor FR amp/Godin LGX-SA/Variax setup and I've been using this setup for at least 4 years. My amps are 100% COSM generated from the Boss GT-Pro into the Atomic Reactor, so I haven't had a "real" amp in at least 5 years now. The beauty of my setup is I do have independent routing control over COSM and PCM sounds, since I run synths out to the PA and keep my guitar-based COSM tones and effects on stage acting as a typical amp. I agree with you that a FR amp should produce a similar sound to a full range PA speaker setup with PCM sounds, and I can certainly extol the virtues vs. running COSM through a conventional amp, but I've got one FR amp and it would require the purchase of an additional speaker. Putting PCM and COSM sounds into my one amp would be a cluster-funk, especially if I have to hear that on stage behind me. I already have a multitude of options for routing my guitar sounds out to the PA if I wanted to, since the GT-Pro has multiple outs (MAIN OUTS, SUB OUTS, DI, SPDIF, etc). I don't use any of them, however, since I don't want my guitar sounds coming out of a PA. There's already too much other crap going on in my band currently coming out of the PA that's already competing for space (4 vocal tracks, 2 synth tracks, 4-5 drum tracks, 1 bass track, 2 vocal harmony generated VL Pro tracks, etc). Compound this with the fact that I also depend on my own personalized in-ear monitor mix with my own preferred balance of instruments (since I'm also a lead singer), and you can easily see why isolated routing of signals is important to me.
Live gear:

Boss GM-800
Boss GKC-AD
Boss Katana Artist 100
Fender Mustang GTX100
Roland GR-33
Liquid Foot Jr. midi foot controller
Boss EV-5
Godin LGX-SA guitar (lefty)
Line 6 Variax 500 guitar (lefty)
Carvin LB50 w GK3B

musicman65

pjmuck,

thanks for the clarification. I read your setup in the other thread and see you are FR already so my comment doesn't really apply. I assumed you had a guitar amp like many others are attempting to use. Your setup is similar to mine. I use earbuds too...and love them. The difference is that you prefer to split your guitar and synth tones. Thats understandable from a ease of mixing standpoint...wish I could, lucky you if you have a good soundman.

Unfortunately, we mix from the stage without a soundman so I can't adjust synth vs guitar balance on the fly except using footpedals and guitar/gk controls. So, for me, setting PCM and COSM levels is a matter of getting  it right in the patch and using floor controls for lead boost/adjustment. I run a FR stereo amp with COSM and Synth tones all in one LR signal path. All I hear is the buds so the amp just fills the stage and adds some  feel....but the stereo mix in the buds is pure inspiration. :)

My earbuds are set to FOH mix and stage volumes are kept low so what I hear is what I get....been doing it that way for the last 5 years but sometimes I sure wish I had a good soundman so I can just sing and play. I do put down my axe and step out front on a few 3 piece tunes and let the guys jam while I check the sound.

Lately we get tons of complements on our sound quality. I never got that before when we used traditional amps and a mono pa setup. I am loving the digital evolution of live gear!

musicman65