RC300 - Using The RC-300 as a USB audio interface

Started by jonnyj, February 25, 2013, 11:28:09 AM

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jonnyj

Greetings one and all I recently got back into the loop ;D with an RC-300.

I was wondering is any one else trying to use the RC-300 as an audio interface with Ableton Live or other DAW? One of the things I hadn't planned on but trying to work out is taking advantage of the USB Audio features. My main issue is getting the dry signal off within Ableton Live. The manual says there is no Dry off setting with the ASIO drivers however in Cubase you can go into the audio settings turn on/off live input monitoring which I was familiar with but Ableton is my go to software for nearly everything audio/MIDI.

I can use Ableton with the RC-300 via ASIO/USB however I can hear the two signals coming through when recording or monitoring in live. The manual also says that you can use the Mute feature in memory to act the way I am talking about however it does not turn off direct monitoring so that I can just hear the effected signal in software. I have tried playing with the USB levels within the memory settings but other than turning off the signal no results yet.

Perhaps someone else here has been doing something similar or another workaround?
"You are what you is"

Brent Flash


shawnb

Welcome!!!   

Regarding your question:
Quote from: jonnyj on February 25, 2013, 11:28:09 AMI can use Ableton with the RC-300 via ASIO/USB however I can hear the two signals coming through when recording or monitoring in live. The manual also says that you can use the Mute feature in memory to act the way I am talking about however it does not turn off direct monitoring so that I can just hear the effected signal in software.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by the two signals...   Do you mean the wet (processed with FX) & dry (raw input) input into the RC300?   If so, I don't think you're in luck; I don't think any of the RC300 FX have a wet-dry setting.   

Or do you mean wet (looper output) vs dry (looper input)?   You can route the input separate from the loop.  Check out the RC300 manual on page 33 for system-level routing & on page 20 if you want to route the input signal somewhere else, e.g., the SUB out.   

Or do you mean Ableton is doubling up the raw input & the playback signal?  That would be an Ableton setting, some form of Local Off.  I don't know Ableton & can't help you there. 

Hope this helps...   

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

jonnyj

"You are what you is"

jonnyj

Hi shawnb. I'm getting ready to try your Frippertronic setup sometime this evening:-) and thak you for the suggestions. My question/issue is number three in your suggestions.

I am strictly speaking of using the RC-300 as a USB Audio Interface/ASIO sound card etc. The looping and effects portion work as expected regardless of this feature. I was hoping to use the RC-300 in this manner to cut down the amount of gear I take out of the house. At the moment there is no need for any gigs but I want to piece together a live rig this way if possible.

There is no switch in Ableton Live :-( which is why I was wondering what others who may be using the RC-300 as an audio interface in any software. So far I have tried Ableton, and Reason Essentials. Both have flexible in/out options but no "local off" per say. The manual says Cubase has a workaround which I am familiar with but I don't use Cubase for much these days.

Again thank you for the suggestions,

JonnyJ
"You are what you is"

Elantric

#5
Lets look at the latest RC-300 manual
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/62224011/RC-300_e03_W.pdf

and "USB Audio Flow" and "USB OUT Level" (lower right) -


Elantric

#6
RC-300_Win_USB_Driver_Install.pdf

(Download attached PDF
RC-300 Driver Ver.1.0.0 for Windows® 7 64-bit Edition / 32-bit Edition
- and Read the Entire Document, to get the most from the RC-300 as Audio Interface under Windows, and how to enable the low latency ASIO Driver)

If anyone posts "Just run ASIO4ALL" - I'll make a mental note, and respectfully disagree.


Also the Roland RC-300 USB Driver for OSX has similar set of crucial instructions - all in "ReadMe.htm" inside the Zip File.

and
RC-300_Training_Guide
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/RC-300_Training_Guide.pdf

shawnb

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Zymos

If you "just run ASIO4ALL" then you can use the USB I/O of the RC-300 at the same time as the ins and outs of any other audio interfaces you may have connected. And most likely with lower latency.

Just sayin'.....

Zymos

No one cares if their drivers are ASIO, WDM or any other letters, they just care how they perform. 

It's pretty rare to find a case where ASIO4ALL doesn't outperform native drivers, but if you DO find such a case, you are out zero $$ and about 5 minutes of time. If someone respectfully disagrees, I'd just have to say "try it out yourself, what have you got to lose?"





Elantric

#10
QuoteNo one cares if their drivers are ASIO, WDM or any other letters, they just care how they perform. 

This mindset might explain why I had far more than 60 milliseconds latency at NAMM 2013 when I demoed the Fishman Tripleplay on a Windows laptop at NAMM ,

but as always, use what ever works for you.


shawnb

Correct, nobody cares about the acronym as long as it performs.   

But it's a simple fact that ASIO4ALL is a wrapper around another (WDM) driver.  A useful wrapper, but a wrapper.   Thus, unnecessary.  I try to keep things simple as possible and not run software that is unnecessary.  One more thing to go wrong. 

On a quick search, here's the only benchmark I found:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=322813&start=0
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Zymos

And yet I can get down to 10 ms with the onboard sound on a crappy Dell laptop, and well below that with my Firebox.

The FTP has many more variables to contend with than the audio interface it eventually goes in to, but I know this isn't the place for all that.

So, jonnyj, did you get it sorted with Ableton,  RC-300 and USB yet ?  :)



Elantric

#13
Audio Driver choice, is also driven by many factors - Lots of Pro Audio DAW Apps on Windows simply will not run without an ASIO driver (Cubase, Ableton Live)

Sonar and Reaper gives you more options - like WASAPI on Win7, Win8 - but you must have those type drivers from your Audio interface vendor.

Again - ASIO4ALL was created to solve a very specific problem, but it gained legs with many folks new to computer audio, since they finally had sound and basic functionality after loading ASIO4ALL. True it does allow folks to use multiple audio interfaces at the same time, but Pros will notice the lack of low latency and phase errors in the audio  - due to multiple clock sources employed on each USB audio interface with its WDM driver.  ASIO4ALL is only a "wrapper" for the WDM Driver  - and will not run without the Audio Interface's WDM driver being installed first.

http://tippach.business.t-online.de/asio4all/intro.html
The ASIO4ALL Developer wrote>
QuoteWhat started as a bedroom project in early 2003 - for the sole purpose to get ASIO support for the AC97 on my laptop - has become ASIO4ALL - the universal ASIO driver for WDM audio.

Honestly, I did not expect this project to become as popular as it has become (but this popularity does not particularly dissapoint me either ;-)

ASIO4ALL is a hardware independent low latency ASIO driver for WDM audio devices. It uses WDM Kernel-Streaming and sometimes even more sophisticated methods to achieve its objectives.

In order to successfully run ASIO4ALL, you need:

    A WDM-compatible operating system, such as Win98SE/ME/2k/XP/2003/XP64 or Windows Vista x86/x64.

    A WDM-driver for your audio hardware. (Under Win2k/XP/Vista... this is implicit, not so under Win98SE/WinME.)

    A couple minutes of your time and a little bit of luck.

What ASIO4ALL will NOT do:

    Replace your existing sound card drivers or mess with them in any way.

    Install any kernel mode components that could potentially affect the stability of your system.

    "Overclock", or otherwise operate your audio hardware in ways that could potentially be harmful and/or void your warranty, except, of course, in cases where the manufacturer of your hardware has specifically stated that the use of ASIO4ALL would void your warranty indeed.

Zymos


Elantric

#15
QuoteAbleton, remember?

So I will restate, you will have THE BEST RC-300 Audio Experience with Ableton Live on Windows when you use the factory Roland FC-300 driver, and understand how to enable the Roland FC-300 USB Driver's "ASIO" mode.


Details here:

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=RC-300&id=62223481

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7995.msg56808#msg56808

AND READ THIS DOC
RC-300 Driver Ver.1.0.0 for Windows® 7 64-bit Edition / 32-bit Edition
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7995.0;attach=6721

jonnyj

#16
Thanks Elantric and shawnb for the recap of the RC-300 and Ableton Live finer details. I got derailed from actively responding until today by life stuff and finding time to see what I can do with my setup.

I read all the RC-300 documents several times before buying it and again before hitting the web for outside advice. I appreciate you both posting links and pics. For whatever reason Ableton's direct monitoring off doesn't shut off the RC-300 the way my digital mixer or any USB sound card I have used. I am used to setting and forgetting audio interfaces and prefer to leave direct monitoring off 99% of the time with any DAW if I am using VST/VSTi's. After rethinking my signal chain I found a workaround by running the the USB out section to the sub outs of the RC-300 to it's own mixer channel channel and muting the mixer channel main outs of the RC-300. In most situations with the RC-300 I will not be using it as a USB audio interface unless I am using an expanded live setup with a PC etc but I find it quite handy using it as one when in the studio integrated with everything else.

Also concerning ASIO4All drivers which was the first thing I switched to when I was having a dilemna did not solve the problem. They ran the RC-300 just fine.
I find most manufacturer's ASIO drivers perform just fine in my experience. several years ago I had a Behringer written driver on one of their first USB electric guitars go terribly bad but as a whole nearly everything seems to be quite good but everyone's mileage is different in the PC World. So many different hardware working or not working together.
"You are what you is"

Tonato

#17
Hi guys,

I have read the manuals and tried to find some info online and here but could not find it, so I am starting to think that what I wanna do it is not possible..... Apologies if this is an obvious question:

I want to record sound to the RC300 from my computer, audio coming from the DAW to the inout of the RC300 via USB. then I want to send back that signal from the output of the RC300 to an input of the sound card, so I can hear how it sounds...

Basically, I want to use all the VSTS and drum loops in LOGIC with the RC300 via USB. Is this possible??

THANKS for your help!!!! much appreciated!

admin

RC300 is NOT an Audio Interface -

Suggest get a Focusrite Scarlett USb Audio Interface 

Tonato

#19
Thanks for your reply.

I have a focusrite USB audio interface already and it is what I am using to send the audio to the RC300 through the USB.

The setup is:

Mixer to focusrite. Focusrite to PC

RC 300 to pc and audio outputs to focusrite inputs.

Now I want to send the audio from the focusrite to the RC300 and then return to an input of the focus rite to listen it.

I did that and checked the system / usb as AUDIO (and not storage) but it is not working....

This is my audio setup in logic (see picture)


shawnb

#20
The RC-300 does not send or receive live audio over the USB.  The USB is there to help you do a couple specific file management functions, such as backing up/restoring your device and reloading firmware. 

To record the output of the RC-300, you need to connect its outputs to your Focusrite.  (I'm not sure how you use your mixer in your setup, it may make sense to connect your RC-300's outputs to your mixer.)   For the RC-300 to record the output of your DAW, you need to connect the Focusrite's audio output to the RC-300's instrument (or aux) input.

Related topic, maybe helpful:  You can, in fact, record loops in your DAW, export those to stereo .wav files and copy them to the RC-300 over USB.   This may be helpful if you prefer to record, mix & apply effects to your backing tracks in your DAW.   There are some gotchas to making this work, but it does work - and sound - very well.   

Since you want to know - the sound quality of the RC-300 is excellent.  If you take a loop and modify its tempo using the RC-300, however, the sound quality will degrade.  The degree of degradation is related to how much you stretch/shrink the audio. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Tonato

#21
shawnb, may thanks for your reply!

Good to know I can't do it via usb. But I still want to loop sounds from my DAW live. I don;t want to record to my daw, and then use the samples to be exported to the rc300. I mean I want to use the daw sounds to loop live.

I want to have the flexibility and creativity to use all my instruments already connected to my pc throughout the mixer + VSTS from my computer to loop those sounds live while I perform, without having to save as wav. export, etc etc. that is not my point!

Would it be possible? I think it must definitely be, but still figuring out how

shawnb

#22
Yes, connect your DAW's output (through your Focusrite, I assume) to the RC-300's instrument or aux input.

Synchronization may be a problem.  It is fairly difficult to have the RC-300 follow an external MIDI clock source.  It wants to be the timing master. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Tonato

#23
Quote from:  shawnb on March 17, 2015, 02:19:46 PM
Yes, connect your DAW's output (through your Focusrite, I assume) to the RC-300's instrument or aux input.

Thanks!

I thought about that, BUT

If I do that, I will have to turn on the RC300 all the time in order to send any sound to my speakers. And I don't want to have to do that... I might just want to listen to music or mix a track, and I don't want to have to do it via the RC300 (and I don't want to have to change the routing any time I want to do one or the other...)

Maybe that is the only alternative I have to do it.. ?

shawnb

This can be easily accomplished - depending on the details of your mixer and Focusrite.   Options to think about:
  -  If you have a 2i4 (or higher) model, you have a 2nd set of outputs from your Focusrite.  Feed one to your amp & the other to your RC-300.   Just about the only Focusrite model this won't work for is the 2i2.
  -  Does your mixer have multiple outputs?   Use the "control room" or "sub" output to feed your RC-300.
  -  Does your mixer have an aux send/receive?   Use that to feed your RC-300. 
  -  Worst case scenario, it may be a simple matter of getting a couple Y cables
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp