What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?

Started by mooncaine, October 05, 2011, 06:18:57 PM

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Headless68

The evolution is the fact you will no longer need a hex pickup to do the things you must have one for today :-) so, no need for an easier drop in version
Obviously we are at the start of that journey, not the end

Frankster

Quote from: JolietJake on May 25, 2015, 07:42:25 AM
Purists
There are certain sections of guitarists that simply cannot see past their purist tone and will always shun digital technology.

Maybe they'd consider modelling systems that had an ash/alder body selection model and an Orange tone cap simulator.

Apparently they can hear these things. I can't.

stratrat

Quote from: Headless68 on May 25, 2015, 11:08:31 AM
The evolution is the fact you will no longer need a hex pickup to do the things you must have one for today
Hmmm... I'm not at all sure about that. AFAIK, the SY only models, using the guitar's own sound as the tone generator. There are severe limitations to how far you can go with that approach - especially without a hex pickup and especially for natural sounds or close emulations. Basically it's fast, dynamic and doesn't need the special pickup. But the trade-offs are the guitar's native tone becomes a variable and it is limited to an approximation of certain voices.

There are also certain limitations to Roland's pitch to MIDI algorithms (which use the zero crossing method of pitch detection) in the GRs. Doesn't matter how much processing you throw at it, eventually you hit a brick wall where physics limits how fast it can be. That's basically because the string has to sound first and the GR has to wait for the attack to die down and then at least one full wavelength of the sustained portion of the note before it can start its work. The lower the note, the longer the wavelength, the longer the delay... That's why I really hoped Roland would license Andras Szalay's pitch detection method (the one used in the Axon and now the FTP) moving forward.  Instead Fishman took it and half-assed it on the hardware side (IMO).

So there are limitations to both approaches that are going to limit what you can do with either.

Having said all that, the best approach with any tech is to stop worrying about what it can't do (a trait we guitarists are prone to). Instead figure out what it can do or what it does that nothing else can, and use the hell out of that to make music.

stratrat

Quote from: Frankster on May 25, 2015, 03:18:14 PM
Maybe they'd consider modelling systems that had an ash/alder body selection model and an Orange tone cap simulator.
Apparently they can hear these things. I can't.
With you on the caps, but unless you are distorting the hell out of everything, the wood does make a difference.

ZenSonic

I too would like to see more dedicated GK synth driver options. I play in alternate tunings exclusively via a GP 10 and never mix magnetic pickups into my sound...they are just dampening the vibration of the strings, adding cost, complexity and messing with an otherwise "zen" aesthetic IMO.

Would love to see more GK drivers made of light weight, super strong materials that are less pervious to changing climatic conditions. Perhaps in a few years we will be on this site swapping axe designs we have creates via apps then rendered on 3 D printers. Once the need for deriving tone from wood is taken out of the equation building materials options open widely.

Tonato

Personally, the only thing that I find annoying when using the GK pickup with the VGs or GRs units, is the non flexibility I have to adjust the sound in real time with my guitar., more specifically, changing pickups. As an example, when I am playing the guitar without the GK, I can adjust the tone with my tone control and I can change pickups with the pickup switcher. I find a big limitation not being able to change pickups with the GK, and not being able to control the tone through the tone. I like to have that control because I feel I can't program absolute everything, I like to have the flexibility to change pickups and tone with my guitar.

I believe that if it would be possible to change pickup modelling  with the pickup switches of the guitar, and adjusting the overall tone of the patch with the tone pot of the guitar, the GK would be much better, and more appealing to more guitarists. I understand that the tone might be able to control with an exp pedal, but well, I 'd like to have the control through my guitar in real time.

I am still learning from this amazing technology, and I don't know if its possible to change pickups through midi CC in the VG99, but if its possible and if its possible to attach any kind of midi triggerings to the pickup selector of the guitar to change pickups of the VG, that would be much better.


supernicd

No argument there, Tonato.  Here are a couple of tips I've picked up from reading this forum that helped me.  Sharing here in case you haven't stumbled on them.

It's possible to use your regular magnetic pickups with the GP/GR/VG units, and play them through the unit's amps and effects.  Many here do that whenever possible, and only use the COSM guitar models when they need the sound of some specific guitar, alt tuning, or some other thing that isn't possible with their mag P/Us.  Myself, I used the COSM guitar models exclusively for quite a while after discovering the VGuitar stuff, but later discovered that I might have been over-using them.  Now I use the COSM models situationally as needed, and my guitar's mag p/us (which give me all that tonal control) when I don't need the COSM for something.  Best of both worlds.  You can also mix the sound of your mag p/us and the COSM guitar.  Try a 60/40 blend of mags to COSM, and then use your guitar tone, volume, PU selector to vary the tone, for example.

The COSM P/U selector can be controlled with the S1/S2 buttons on the GK.  Some models (VG-99, GP-10 for example) actually have increment/decrement functionality so that they move back and forth between up to 5 P/U positions.  The GR-55 is missing the inc/dec functionality, but you could still assign S1 and S2 to choose 2 of the possible pickups for that guitar model. 

You could always map the GK-VOL knob to the COSM guitar TONE knob if that's the main control you want at your fingertips.  Of course then it doesn't control guitar volume anymore.  The EXP pedal could be used for that.  It's whatever makes the most sense for you.  Might be worth creating a patch that puts the tone knob on your GK-VOL to see if that works for you.

Oh, and on the VG-99 specifically, those 6 knobs can be assigned to control whatever you want while you're on the patch home screen.  I like to have them consistent and simple.  Guitar tone, and the amp's tone stack controls (drive, bass, mid, treb, etc.).  If the 99 is close to you, actually easier than going back and adjusting an amp. ;)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Tonato

Many Thanks SuperNICd! REALLY GOOD advice and info!

Im doing a rehearsal today and I will take the VG88 to use as a multifx processor, connected only with the jack cable! Will see how it goes!

It is a also a very good alternative to use the S1, S2 switches for pickup changes! I will definitely do that with my VG99. Very interesting to know I can adjust amp and tone settings with the VG99 knobs. I will try that today!

When I discovered the V world I aimed to use it as my main sound, but now I am thinking to mix it with my normal guitar, using it for 12 strings, alt tunings, cosm, etc. As you said I think this way its about getting what's the best of both worlds!

I still have a way to make the most of this technology! I hope to have more time off work soon and be able to get locked in my house for days with them ha!! :) Once more, thanks for the info!

supernicd

You're very welcome.  All things I've learned from others here -just reposting them at an opportune moment. ;)  Rediscovering my mag p/u's and how I can add them into the VGuitar equation has really helped me get the most from it.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Raven

I really like the idea of applying King Gillette's rule to the GK-3: give the razors away, sell the blades. If they were sold at cost, there'd be an incentive to at least TRY dipping a toe into the 13-pin world. (If sold at a unit loss, the difference ought to be deductible as marketing.)

This popped up last month on Reverb.com, & I think at the very least it's an ingenious marketing tool --

Nothing but a stoptail on a wood slab. It was apparently built by ESP (made in China); the 12th-fret inlay is an italic "GK" in pearloid block. There's no distractions of fancy woodwork or pickups. Meant as a store demonstrator, but (IMNSHO) should've been retailed at cost. Makes me wonder how cheaply something similar with a Kit could be put out.

I'm a guitar addict -- there's a restive herd of 'em in the next room -- in part because I've often found that some passage that just refuses to work will suddenly become simple by changing instruments. Not even a matter of quality: last week, one of my best (Washburn X-33) let me down, yet it flowed on a cheap Johnson with sharp fret edges & in need of a trussrod tweak.

No way could I have enough hex pickups available to make such a rapid swap to any given guitar. But -- considering that most of my guitars cost me under $150 -- cutting the price would at least let me have a couple on hand.

If I had to come up with ONE combination of mag pickups, tailpiece, neck dimensions, scale length, etc. that I'd go out of my way to put a Kit in... well, there's where I feel too clueless to even make a first guess.
________________

Sorry; sudden change of direction. The Chapman Stick site shows a GK-3 mounted to the edge of the minimal body.

The darned thing looks like it BELONGS there -- something that's rarely been said. Placement of controls almost makes sense, even.

aliensporebomb

The music store near me has a GK3 only guitar similar to that one.  I've pondered what's going to happen to it since it sits on a rack behind the big GR55/GK guitar display they have there mostly unused.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

QuoteThey were more than happy to sell me the display unit GR55 with the guitar.

This information indicates either of three things :

1) The dealer needs cash flow and is willing to sell his GK-13 demonstrator guitar

2) The dealer is willing to sell his GK-13 demonstrator guitar, because he has inside news the Boss GP-10 will be the last GK-13 "V-Guitar" product, thus no future need for keeping an in house GK-13 demonstrator guitar.

3 ) Both #1 and #2 are true.

Orren Merton

Quote from: Elantric on June 01, 2015, 10:12:20 AM
This information indicates either of three things :
1) The dealer needs cash flow and is willing to sell his GK-13 demonstrator guitar
2) The dealer is willing to sell his GK-13 demonstrator guitar, because he has inside news the Boss GP-10 will be the last GK-13 "V-Guitar" product, thus no future need for keeping an in house GK-13 demonstrator guitar.
3 ) Both #1 and #2 are true.

Or #4:

The dealer is doing fine, has no inside information about GK products, but simply hasn't sold any GK related stuff in so long, he feels it's pointless to keep any in stock, and wants to clear out what he has to make room for stuff that might actually turn a profit.

Orren

Elantric

Good point.

QuoteOr #4:

The dealer is doing fine, has no inside information about GK products, but simply hasn't sold any GK related stuff in so long, he feels it's pointless to keep any in stock, and wants to clear out what he has to make room for stuff that might actually turn a profit.

While I see adverts  in Premier Guitar for Boss GP-10, so far in 2014 -2015 1st year sales, the Boss GP-10 is not the big sales success that the GR-55 was back in 2011-2012. And the lower MSRP  = Lower profit margin.

I have yet to see a Boss GP-10 in stock or on Display at any USA Music store. And when i ask the Salesmen:

Quote"Do you have the Boss GP-10?

Not one of the sales floor staff know what a GP-10 is - so its tough for jaded  / non trained sales staff to know why the old GR-55 GK 13 pin In store display rack and demo guitar needs to be maintained for selling Roland's current and future GK-13 pin products.

I also asked when they were expecting to get the new Boss SY-300 - just a blank stare yet again.  Not one salesman at Guitar Center Oxnard, or Sherman Oaks, California had heard of the SY-300 - but they were happy to sell me a Washburn Nuno Bettencourt Guitar  for $99
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Washburn-Nuno-Bettencourt-Signature-Electric-Guitar-110448792-i3838294.gc
   

The local Boss dealer in USA probably makes more profit stocking and selling Boss  TU-3 tuners vs Boss GP-10



Orren Merton

Quote from: Elantric on June 01, 2015, 10:28:04 AM
The local Boss dealer in USA probably makes more profit stocking and selling Boss  TU-3 tuners vs Boss GP-10


And while I may prefer the TC Polytune, the fact is, that's a beloved and very good tuner! :)

Orren

mbenigni

Quote...but they were happy to sell me a Washburn Nuno Bettencourt Guitar  for $99
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Washburn-Nuno-Bettencourt-Signature-Electric-Guitar-110448792-i3838294.gc

Well, that got a rise out of me... for a few seconds, anyway.  I had no idea they ever did a cheap version of this guitar.  A Nuno signature model without a Floyd??  Pfft.

aliensporebomb

#116
Anyone ever see one of these?

The aforementioned LTD with single GK pickup and nothing else is BEHIND this massive display (across the aisle from the back of this sitting at a right angle to an amp on an amp mounted guitar hangar). 

You have to know it's there to even go "oh, what's this?"  Heh. 

That display is huge, well lit and the VGuitar screen on the left was in the middle of reboot when I took the shot.  I think they should have had a second cube if they wanted to run stereo.

That store is Groth Music in Minneapolis.  They are known for tending to have high prices but it's about the same through Musician's Friend, Sweetwater or the like. 

But, I kind of wonder how well this is selling that gear!  The area on the upper right where it says "The Story" and "G-5" you can see a spot where the G5 they had was, but it sold.  Yes, that's the one with the hex pickup and built in sounds.  I think they had two of the GC-1 guitars (that can drive GR-55 etc - one was sunburst) and only one is left (black).

Behind this there are 5 rows of conventional electrics and amps as well as that long double row on the right of just about every Fender you can imagine as well as some Yamaha, etc.

I have to admit the sound thru that little cube could be better but this gigantic display has kind of has a "do not touch" vibe about it, that display is ten feet tall, easily.  Maybe even higher. 

I can't imagine how they got it into the store.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Tony Raven

Wow; that's just bad in so many ways. I haven't done marketing in many years, but first thoughts:

The display is off-putting rather than inviting. For starters, the demo guitar should be up, like fret 12 about 5 feet off the floor. It should have a strap, & a pick stuck through the strings. Below that would be the info screen (left) & GR-55 (right). Everything would be powered up during store hours, with the amp volume just above a whisper. (Ideally, that screen would be showing a rotating cycle of brief video demos alternating with cues saying how easy it is to begin; when the guitar's lifted from its cradle, this would change to "push THAT button, make THIS sound" tips.)

And, yeah, there SHOULD be at least a 2-12" there. With one little cone -- at ankle level, yet!! -- it seems INTENDED to make the GR sound tinny & weedy. The demo stand I tried in 1999 at least had the sense to run it to headphones, & (yes) left the synth & amp powered up all day.

As is, it looks like someone simply parked a random guitar in a defunct display unit that's halfway to the Dumpster. At best, it's selling the guitar, NOT the Roland gear.

Roland should NEVER let tech geeks write user manuals. Much less should they be allowed to "create an in-store experience."

Tony Raven

I'm surprised at the popularity of the 13-pin DIN, despite its flaws. Godin, RMC, Graph Tech, Fender, Brian Moore, Carvin -- any of these would be fully justified in going 100% to a more robust/repairable/available cabling format, at the cost of a small adapter/breakout box.
________________

But I may have identified another problem with the supply chain.

Early 2014, I bought a Switch Music "Innovo-III MIDI" guitar for a few bucks under $350, shipped -- a bit more than I would've set value at, but it's one of the last ones I've seen on the market, so I'm satisfied. As with my previous Switch guitars, the attention to detail shown is to a very high standard. It needed the basics (trussrod tweak, minor intonation, height), plays sweet, & shows minimal fretwear, like a few hundred hours from a light-handed player.

Now that I've finally got a VG-8, it seemed like time to set it all up. Before I even plugged in, I glanced at the inbuilt GK-2A... then went & checked the manual. And string clearance is 2 mm (low E) to 2.9 mm (high E).

Something so simple, from a detail-aware company. This does lead me to wonder whether other resellers of the GK-KIT are ensuring that the system is installed properly, works before it leaves the bench, & gets a final checkout with the usual adjustments at the retail end (if any). However, my experience of recent years with Fender guitars being displayed directly from the box (cursory visual inspection & tune) is not heartening. I'd certainly expect better from (say) Godin, but my rare fits of optimism often go unrewarded.

There's little upside & lots of downside that inure to Roland. If it all works great, the owners will RAVE about the guitar... but if they encounter problems, they'll squeal incessantly about how "ROLAND SUX!!" While I'm sure RKK simply wants to sell a few metric tons of GKs & the associated modules, the hard fact is that they should consider how their reputation (& thus market value) is affected by the imperfect work of these "value added" brands.

What are the experiences of others? If you own a "Roland ready" guitar, was the circuit ideal from the start, or not?


thebrushwithin

QuoteWhat would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?

Nothing! It is a specialty market that few guitarists, outside this community, understand, or care to. The sonic explorers are pretty much not guitarists anymore, but rather are into electronica. It's all good!!!

supernicd

QuoteWhat are the experiences of others? If you own a "Roland ready" guitar, was the circuit ideal from the start, or not?

Bought a Godin LGXT back around Christmas time last year.  It's a thing of beauty.  Have not had to do or have anything done to it.  Works great with my GR-55, GP-10, and VG-99.  Also sounds great when not connected to a 13-pin system.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

matigrob

did this Display Port idea go anywhere?
looks interesting. I do not worry that the cable would be able to handle analog signal.
here is quite some info about the cable:
http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/peripherals/f/3529/t/19339056?pi23185=13

looks like there are 5 drilled (shielded?) pairs, so probably about 6 of the pins must be ground.
so each pair of strings might suffer some crosstalk, but since pickups do not separate well either, I do not think it would be a problem
one pair could be a digital control line and we should maintain Rolands 3 control lines to be able to make compatible cables (adapters).

mechanically, it may be similar to FireWire: the cable connector looks quite resistant but how about the socket?
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/PlayStation-4-HDMI-Display-Port-Socket-Jack-Connector-PS4-Console-/171804311283
amazing how many are not stocked or end of life, is it a dead end?
http://www2.mouser.com/Connectors/Audio-Video-Connectors/HDMI-Displayport-DVI-Connectors/_/N-778d3?P=1ytkn39Z1z0yy6b&Keyword=display+port&FS=True

GuitarBuilder

Sorry about the necropost, but this solution has merit:

http://www.cycfi.com/2016/11/announcing-the-nexus/

Scroll down to the section on the multi-channel cable with Lemo-compatible connector.  I have used this for over 6 months now without any issues and can attest to the fact that it is more robust and easier to use than the 13-pin plugs.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

make divided pickup adapter for guitars using A2B technology